Torque Plate? [Merged 11-6]

[DevilSperm]

i can get a steel one for $60...aluminum will be more like $250...My machinist told me they use the aluminum to get the exact conditions but after being torqued down, the steel will have the same affect on the block. Can anyone give me their opinion? (as long as you know what the hell you're talking about)

 

[thegreatms]

i don't think i know enough to give you an answer, but i have a question?

Do you know why the aluminum one is almost 4 times as much? I mean aluminum stock is cheaper then steel stock and most it is much easier to machine AL than steel.

 

[Defiant]

Out here in The Real World, using a torque plate at all is edging toward the obsessive. The gang mills at the factory that machine block castings don't use torque plates.

However, debating over whether to use steel or aluminum goes beyond obsessive and straight to Damaged Brain Cells. How's that aluminum one going to be accurate if it doesn't have all the factory water passages in it? The block'll know it's not exactly the same, and it'll just wait for a chance to screw you for trying to fool it. Because they get jealous, y'know.

If you're making sure that the motor can put out 508HP instead of a measly 499, things like torque plates, torqued caps (girdles) with a crank in place and the assembly pre-heated to operating temperatures before being machined will matter. Maybe.

But fussing over a motor rebuild is half the fun, isn't it?

 

[peregrine]

i would think that it wouldnt matter. its producing the same stress.

 

[blue1]

I think all the torque plate does is puts the assembled load around the tops of the cylinders where the studs will distort the block when trying to pull upwards and spread the thread holes out wards!
If you get a bore guage that will read in tenths of a thou and place it in the top of the bore approx' an inch down then squeeze across the top of the block with your bare hands you tell me whats readings you get!!!
I'll leave this one at that so i dont get attacked by someone! Steel or alloy will do the same job, just get your tensions accurate!

 

[half-cocked]

When you use a torqueplate you are supposed to use a head gasket as well, not to mentiont he distortion is actually in the bolt bosses. So no, it would not matter if its steel or AL.

 

[DSMatMSU]

http://www.taboospeedshop.com/torque_plate.htm
fwiw.... its aluminum too

but i didnt use a tq. plate when i did mine.... so yea...

 

[anconover]

It should do roughly the same thing. But i think the comment about torque plates being obssesive is ridiculous. Its been proven the block distorts with a torque plate, and the bores wont be 100% round if bored without a torque plate when the head is bolted down. Using a torque plate to make sure the cylinders are perfectly round doesnt seem obsessive to me, but seems like the person doesnt want to spend 2000$ on a shortblock and skimp out on something that can be soo important.

Of coarse you can NOT use a torque plate, but you need to widen the gaps, ROSS even gives you individual specs for incase you do NOT use a plate.

Is it obsessive to want you 2,000$ block bored correctly... No. is it not always necessary, no its not always necessary but an extremely good idea.

Dont want to make this a torque plate thread, because theyres millions, but i think that post as ignorant.

 

[DevilSperm]

it could be argued all day whether they are necessary or not...i plan to use one just for the fact of not having to wonder if i should have if i decided to do without. I was leaning toward the steel one being ok, i just wanted more opinions. thanks for the replies

 

[half-cocked]

But my biggest arguement on this is that these blocks are not bored with a torqueplate from the factory so is it a huge factor as everyone says it is? I have heard the it is absolutly neccesary to use one, and I believe they are full of shit. Good idea yes, neccesary no. Steel and AL wont make a difference BTW devilsperm I talked to a machinist this morning.

 

[GRNDSM]

I will be first to admit that I am NOT an engine builder, but there are a few points about torque plates that do not sit well with me:

1. I would think that honing with a torque plate is much more important, yet everyone always talks about boring with the torque plate.

2. Is using a torque plate even necessary on 4G63? We all know that this is a well accepted practice in the V8 world. But many V8 engines (especially the old ones) were CRAP from the factory and most engine builders would build a much better performance engines. 4G63 engines were phenomenal from the factory and most rebuild/race versions are not as good (from durability standpoint), especially if they were built by V8 experts. So is this a case of “doing something that we have always done” or do they really need it?

Having said that, strictly from the statics perspective, I see no problem with using steel torque plates.

 

[DevilSperm]

I was told to hone AND bore with a plate...the way i look at it, for $60 its probably worth it dont you think? now if I was considering buying the $406 plate from BHJ, i might decide to do without it since its so much $

 

[half-cocked]

I'm interested in one too, what is BHJ?

 

[DevilSperm]

I'm interested in one too, what is BHJ?

they make one http://bhjproducts.com/

 

[NDgsx]

We use the BHJ R plate here at the shop. The same headgasket that will be used on the motor (99% of the time that's cometic) is used for honing. Whethet or not you should bore with the torque plate depends on what procedure your machinist goes through for honing. With ARP hardware torqued to 81ft-lbs the bore will consistently be .003" OOR at all four bosses. In terms of ring seal .003" is huge, the rings will not seal very well when the piston is near TDC. If you're making 300hp it might not be much of an issue for you, when you are actually making power it is.
When I first put the eclipse together I used a 7 bolt I had laying around to save money (after building the car from a shell it took a while before I could afford the 2.4), I deglazed the bores and put in new rings with a very tight .0010" gap (1st) and .0177" gap (2nd). After a day at the track my catch can would have half a quart in it. Now with the 2.4l that has a much looser end gap I have a slight drible out of the can, despite the fact that I'm making 100 more hp.

Now as for the factory didn't do it argument, that is flat out STUPID. Think a little bit before you say that. That would make a HUGE increase in manufacturing cost, do you think mitsubishi would do that for a 17k car? Hell no. By that train of thought there would be no point in going to a larger exhaust, the factory always does what is best for performance right?

 

[GRNDSM]

>With ARP hardware torqued to 81ft-lbs the bore will consistently be .003" OOR at all four bosses.

You are correct, that is HUGE. Is this specifically on 4G63 motor? What is your source on these figures?

>That would make a HUGE increase in manufacturing cost, do you think mitsubishi would do
>that for a 17k car?

But there is another way of looking at this. I know several people who are using stock blocks w/ARP studs torqued to 95ft-lbs (w/moli lube), they are making around 500whp and are not having blow-by issues. That supports my original claim that factory engines are not so bad…

Now, I am not dismissing a possibility of factory performing some other machining procedure, which accomplishes a similar task, but I am not sure that I agree with a notion that they are simply not doing it because it is too expensive. Could it be that they are not doing it because it is not really needed?

Leon

 

[anconover]

Maybe mitsu felt it wasnt necessary being that they were producing a 200hp car.

Theyre is NO doubt that the bores are distorted when the head or torque plate is bolted down. I don't know why people feel it isnt worth it, IMO if your gonna blow the cash to build a motor, your obviously building the motor because you hope to put down some nice power. And if a torque plate can make a difference for the better, why not use it? Even if the block only distorts a little, imo even a little is too much for me when spending 2,000$ for a shortblock. Especially if im looking to make good power from it.

If your rebuilding your motor to handle nothing more than the motor was originally capable of, im sure its not neccessary.

 

[ACKERSON]

Why don't you contact some of the dsm engine builders and ask them what they use. Buschur, FFWD, Jackson Auto Machine. I'm sure they will tell you what is best. Personally I only deal with ffwd and they use a torque plate on all of there engines. I don't know if it is aluminum or steel, but I do know that an aluminum and steel have different elasticity and expansion properties, so it might make a difference. What are your ultimate goals for this engine?

 

[92redman]

We use the BHJ R plate here at the shop. The same headgasket that will be used on the motor (99% of the time that's cometic) is used for honing. Whethet or not you should bore with the torque plate depends on what procedure your machinist goes through for honing. With ARP hardware torqued to 81ft-lbs the bore will consistently be .003" OOR at all four bosses.

Are you sure it's .003" and not .0003", because that is a TON of distortion. For the $400 or whatever they cost, are those torqueplates engineered to match the streeses of the head exactly, or are these just another hunk of stock with holes milled?

I was going to buy one from that Toastie place because I didn't have the time to make my own, but after countless emails and phone calls with no response I have given up on them.

As far as aluminum or steel, I think like everybody has been saying, it won't matter. Unless, of course, you want to accurately replicate the stresses of the cylinder head in which case you need to spend the big bucks to get an engineered plate. Big waste of money unless you are like NASCAR("looking for one horsepower at a time") and want to run 200 degree honing oil through the thing while you hone.

Also, you don't need to use a torque plate to bore unless you bore to .003" of your goal size. If you leave about .005" to hone and then use the plate it will be round.

 

[anconover]

I believe he meant .0003, because ive heard .0002 thrown around alot by some shops ive talked to.

 

[BISHILVR]

i can get a steel one for $60...aluminum will be more like $250...My machinist told me they use the aluminum to get the exact conditions but after being torqued down, the steel will have the same affect on the block. Can anyone give me their opinion? (as long as you know what the hell you're talking about)

where are youn getting a plate for $60???....are you intetrested in selling it when your done???.........

 

[DevilSperm]

What are your ultimate goals for this engine?

I dont really have a goal for it...its more of a build it and see what its capable of kind of thing....i dont want to shoot for 600 and end up with 300 and be disappointed...though, I plan to make it a street/strip car with as much power as i can give it..its a slow build and im still saving for pistons (damn Christmas got in the way) so ill change my mind a few times...and BISHILVR, my friend works at the machine shop thats doing this so hes hooking me up...as far as selling it....probably not, but i may rent it out if needed

 

[Defiant]

With ARP hardware torqued to 81ft-lbs the bore will consistently be .003" OOR at all four bosses. In terms of ring seal .003" is huge, the rings will not seal very well when the piston is near TDC. If you're making 300hp it might not be much of an issue for you, when you are actually making power it is.

But what's to assure the next torqueing -such as, the last torqueing, when the engine's assembled- will be the same distortion? I mean, once it's together, do we even know what the distortion is? Or if there's any at operating temperature?

Now as for the factory didn't do it argument, that is flat out STUPID. Think a little bit before you say that. That would make a HUGE increase in manufacturing cost, do you think mitsubishi would do that for a 17k car? Hell no. By that train of thought there would be no point in going to a larger exhaust, the factory always does what is best for performance right?

The factory's also building engines to be durable, and on those whose power output has been profanely increased without the head having been removed -and consequently, never bored/honed with a plate- how often (other than burning up from inaccurate mixture/timing) is the ring/bore interface where the engine fails first? Isn't rod bearing failure much more common than ring trouble?
There may be something stupid going on here, but I'm not content to concede it's on my part. I'm not sure it's a matter of stupidity, either, but I'll leave that to your call.

 

[Defiant]

If you get a bore guage that will read in tenths of a thou and place it in the top of the bore approx' an inch down then squeeze across the top of the block with your bare hands you tell me whats readings you get!!!

Yes, we forget in the intoxication of it all just how thin blocks really are, and what flexy bits the separate parts are. You can also measurably wind-up a crankshaft with your bare hands with a lever only as long as the throws.

 

[NDgsx]

Note to self, look over posts typed at the shop in 40 degree weather, it's .0003" OOR (which is huge in terms of rings seal, like I said earlier).
That is measured with the actual head torqued in place using ARP hardware (before somebody says you can't do that with the head on, the crank and piston were out).
Another thing to keep in mind is that ARP hardware has a higher clamp load then the factory hardware when both are torqued to spec, and this increase also distorts the bore more than the factory hardware will.
After honing with the torque plate I did not measure any OOR condition. I do not see how a OOR condition would go away due to the heating of the block. Maybe one day I'll get really bored and throw a block in the oven and find out, but probably not.
I am not refering to the honing with a torque plate as being a helpful in terms of parts failure, rather better ring seal leading to higher combustion chamber pressure, and that of course making more power. Also with less blowby you get less contamination of the oil, but that is a pretty moot point.