Torque Plate? [Merged 11-6]

[steel_3d]

I did when I assembled it and took those measurements.
I'll take some tonight since it's off the stand now. I don't expect things to change much, especially in cylinder 1 or the mains.

 

[GVR4592]

Cylinder 1 won't change much but the closer you get to #4 the more it's going to change. I would get a hold of the machine shop so you can verify what steps they took when machining your block. You'll probably find that they screwed up.

 

[steel_3d]

I took it to the local domestic shop. The guy there is decent, he used a proper tousand dollar bore gauge that reads to .0001". Measured the piston with a mic to 3.3838" (=85.94852mm). Set the bore gauge with the standard thing to 3.3875" (.0037" clearance, since I asked for as close as possible to .004 but over .0035).

The engine was not on a stand, it was resting upside down on the cam cap bolts. Head and mains torqued to spec.

Shop's measurements:
<img src="http://i2.tinypic.com/x55iqr.jpg">

My measurements compared to shop's:
<img src="http://i1.tinypic.com/x55it3.jpg">

Units are thousandths of an inch.

As you can see he measured about 1 thou taper and out of round as well (just look at #1). I think he would've seen even funkier shit if he measured adjacent to the head studs. My measurements weren't exactly the same as his, but the trends were. Some of that I attribute to the fact that we measured in slightly different spots, and the measurements vary pretty wildly from spot to spot, even half an inch away.

He also measured the center main to be .8-1 thou out of round. Too wide at the split. No bearing in it. The others were decent.

My question now is, what's the best way to fix all this?

I don't see how the center cap can be brought back to the proper size near the split, unless the caps are cut a lot. Do I just get them to make it round and run it loose? This block has crankwalked once (crank didn't touch the block), I really don't want that again.

If Mr Raney measured my piston diameter right (yes, it was measured near the bottom of the skirt, I measured it to be the same with his mic, I just don't know if his standard calibrator thing agrees with his mic to the tenth of a thou), by the time the cylinders get back to perfectly round and true, I'll have over .004", maybe over .0045 clearance. Is that cool for Wisecos? This is my daily driver, I want it to last, and I don't want it to sound like a tractor.

 

[Dream On]

I would take it back to the shop that did the work and talk to them.

 

[steel_3d]

Doing that tonight. At least I'm confident now that I'm right.

 

[sho_tyme_psi]

I would take it back to the shop that did the work and talk to them.

Sounds like you would want to a differnt shop. Did they even mill the deck or or line bore the mains??????

 

[steel_3d]

Decked and line honed. Forgot to mention decking earlier.

I'm not gonna use a different shop. They're gonna give me my money back for wasting my time, and then sweat over it till they get it right. Find a new block if they can't. It's a big name dsm shop, they better not try to jerk me around They want me to put 300 bucks on the table just so they'd look at it, so they'd better be prepared to give something as well.

I'm disappointed to say the least, that they couldn't get it right the first time, after I spoon fed them every spec and requirement. And they messed up things that they could have found are out of spec by looking in a manual. And the stupidest thing is that I TOLD them I'd be checking their work.

Anyways, I've lost too many brain cells over this, I need to chill out

 

[TSIfreek]

Dont be surprised if you dont get your money back if thats what you want. What I would do is have them torque the torque plate on as well as the mains and have them check each cylinder with the dial bore gauge they used with you there its the only way to see if the job was done corectly. I would not go in there looking for a fight because you wont win. If they wont do this for you look for another shop that has a 4g63 torque plate.

 

[GVR4592]

I'd be pretty pissed too. Good machinists are almost impossible to find. Are they in your area or did you have to ship the block to them?

 

[steel_3d]

They said they'd give me my money back. I told em I assume that means they'll fix it too. We'll see how it goes...

It's impossible to find another shop with a torque plate around here. I paid a premium too.

They're in my area, I'm going down there tonight.

 

[scottsee]

That is a very good example of what happens when you "drink and drill".. Veary sorry to hear about that..

 

[steel_3d]

Tell me about it. I was wishing he had brought along some of what he was snorting at the time. But we found the culprit. The asshole used an mls headgasket, even after he asked, and I told him stock mitsu composite. Says it soaks up oil in the hone. He also used 85 instead of 90lbft on the head studs and not quite the factory torque sequence. Basically he didn't follow anything I printed out for him on the sheet of paper, and didn't tell me that he did anything different.

When measured with composite gasket and his torque plate: the numbers were what I measured earlier - bad. With his torque plate and cometic the numbers were better, it was about 3 tenths of a thou variation in the bores except #1 which had a spot on the bottom that was about 4-5 tenths loose. He didn't let me touch his gauge, and he was all over the place with it, but I got a decent idea that the numbers he was measuring were real, maybe a bit on the conservative side. Just couldn't get an idea of what was taper and what was out of round. There was definitely some taper.

He measured the #3 main to be 2 or 3 tenths bigger than the rest, and 6 tenths wider near the parting line. He was saying it's fine cause it's within 2-3 tenths for like 60% of the bore and he doesn't care what happens at the parting line.

Unfortunately I left my pistons at home in my big hurry, but given the clearance we measured the night before at the other shop, I think I can live with it now that the bore is pulled more straight.

So I could get a cometic and get these tolerances. Basically 3 tenths oor/taper, 2-3 tenths too large #3 main, and 6 tenths out of round #3 main. Would you guys run this motor? This is my daily driver, it needs to last and pass emissions.

 

[steel_3d]

One more lesson learned: Don't use a steel torque plate to simulate an aluminum head!

I bolted the head down with a cometic, just like the one the guy used for machining, and now my #3 cylinder is .002" tapered and .001" out of round, and #4 is out by .001" as well. Didn't bother to check the rest. Basically I'm screwed, probly gonna get another block from them.

 

[steel_3d]

A guy asked me if I'd recommend the shop that did the work on my block, and I went off on a tangent that I think might help some people out, so I'll post it here:

Do NOT go through Shop X I dunno how many machine shops they use, but I know the one that did my engine CAN NOT do it right since their torque plate is wrong. Besides that they screwed up other things like the line honing and simply following instructions. By the sounds of it, the guys at Shop X don't know anyone with an aluminum plate.

Unfortunately I don't even know what the guy's name is who did the actual work, and they never even wanted to tell me where his shop is, or even in what area, I just know that it's somewhere way south of LA.

If you find a shop in SoCal with a torque plate, let me know.

Right now I'm considering investing in a torque plate (over $250) and having the local machine shop do it.

Whoever you use, invest in a $40 bore gauge on ebay. Check over the cylinders and mains with the head and mains torqued down. Otherwise you don't really know what you're getting and how long that motor will last. Those gauges are good enough to tell you when something's out of whack, and they never lie. If the gauge shows .0005" difference between two measurement points, you know there's a pretty good difference. When it shows .002" difference, you know you're hosed. I say they're accurate to about .0002" if you read them carefully. My measurements have always been close to those measured with $1000 machinist's gauges that measure to .0001".

Here's two I recommend:

<a href="http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=best+bore+gauge&category0=">ebay</a>

I bought the 2"-6" one, but in retrospect I'd buy the .7-2" one too because the rods are pretty important to check, and I had to pay a machine shop to do it, which costs just as much or more. The 2"-6" gauge is too big for the rods, but works for the mains and cylinders. You still need to leave the wrist pin fitting up to the machine shop, at least I don't know of a gauge that reads that small.

If you're wondering how those gauges work, they're self-centering, so you can't screw up. Just place it in the bore, tilt it one way, tilt it the other way, and the max you see on the dial somewhere in between is the relative distance from what you calibrated the gauge to. When checking out of roundness or taper you don't need any specific calibration, you're just looking at the difference between the measurements at various points.

You need a decent set of calipers too, also from ebay. One that measures .0005" is good, I don't think there's any that are more accurate. I can't call even this one "accurate" but it's decent. For example I measured the crank journals right on spec, and same as the shop's micrometer, but I consistently measured my pistons .001" narrower with the calipers than with the mic. If I ever do this again I think I'll invest in micrometers as well, you need a couple of sizes to cover the 0-4" range.

To check clearances, you would for example measure your piston with a micrometer, and calibrate your bore gauge with the micrometer locked to that reading. I was doing it with my calipers, which is not the most accurate method.

That was just a taste of what's involved, and if you need me to clarify something feel free to ask. I just wanted to get the point across that checking tolerances is very doable by the home mechanic.

If you let a shop do the building, I would insist on them measuring everything in front of you before it's put together. I'd rather pay extra and be sure. Or do it yourself and be 100% sure. I honestly don't trust anyone in the car industry A lot of them are not very smart, and even when they do know there's something off, they'll likely sweep it under the rug knowing that the customer can't check. Personally, I like to be in control of my shit.

Good luck with your builds!

 

[steel_3d]

Does anyone know of a source to buy a torque plate, other than BHJ? They want friggin $520 for a plate!

This needs to be an aluminum plate. My block was machined with a steel plate and the cylinders were all warped when the actual head got torqued on. One was .002" tapered. Now I'm starting with another block, and I'd rather use no torque plate at all, than use a steel one.

I'm also willing to pay to borrow one, if anyone happens to have one, especially in SoCal.

 

[BISHILVR]

The torque plate material is'nt the problem. People have been using steel plates for decades on engines that have aluminum heads. Remember, that the purpose of the plate is to pull on the studs to distort the block before finishing it, thats it. I would say that the problem you had is in the method of machining it properly, or the plate was way to thin and it actually flexed before the block did, my plate is around 2.5-3.0 inches thick for that reason.

 

[lasertim]

I completely agree with BISHILVR. Sounds like a machining error. The whole idea is to have a ridgid plate doesnt allow the block to distort in any way. I know the head is aluminum and you are trying to mimic the head being installed on the block but not having the dome/combustion chamber like in a real head might allow the plate to flex too much.

 

[GVR4592]

There was a thread a few weeks back about this where the machine shop used a steel torque plate and the wrong head gasket and the cylinders were out of round after final machining.

 

[GVR4592]

Wait that was you.... my bad.

 

[blue1]

I just used an old head and stripped the steel bits out (guides, valve seats) then just bought a 87mm hole saw, made a guide for the hole saw to locate in the spark plug holes and bored it right through, if you know someone with a mill this would be a lot easier just to centre on the plug holes and bore it straight through,
The idea of the stress plate is to mimic the distortion the head studs do to the bores when they are tightened and this worked good and it was cheap.

 

[steel_3d]

Did you try to measure the bores for roundness and taper with the head installed? What sort of numbers were you getting.

I was really considering the idea of punching a big hole in a junk head, the only problem is I don't know where I can find one within a week. I'm too busy to scour junk yards right now. Also, I'm not sure if all mills are able to punch 87mm holes. Could the same mill be used for this that's used to bore the block?

I would prefer the head with a hole in it over a steel plate, even though it would lose some stiffness. The reason is that I believe the steel torque plate that was used was TOO stiff and warped the block too much. I'd rather have something that's not quite stiff enough, but better than no plate at all.

At this point I'm kinda set on buying a BHJ torque plate for $525 and be done with it. It's a ridiculous price but the shop's gonna buy it off me for $400. How nice of them, since they were supposed to have done the job right for the original amount I paid.

 

[steel_3d]

Bishilvr, have you tried measuring the bores with the head torqued down after honing with the steel plate? Not trying to pick at you, but I don't see why my situation would be a fluke. Check out my old thread: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225528

The plate was steel, the same thickness as the head, meaning it clamped at the same height as the head with the same studs. Not sure what that is, but it's over 2". I don't see how it would be machining error, since with his plate and his Cometic the taper and OOR were in control, around .0003". With a new Cometic (same type, classic, not HP) and my head all cylinders were about .001" tapered/out of round, and the worst was #3 with a .002" taper. I took it apart, made sure the gasket was clean and retorqued it 3 times to the same torque, and every time #3 was .002 out. Measured by two people with two bore gauges. I'm pretty sure that's not a fluke. We've also proven that the type of gasket makes a big difference, since with his torque plate and a composite gasket, the numbers were out by .001". That's about the same as my head and composite, incidentally. For some reason my head gave less distortion with the composite gasket than with the MLS it was machined with. Weird. I'm not saying I have a complete theory as to how and why the block warps given all these conditions. It would've been cool if I had recorded comprehensive data for all the configurations and plotted the data to get some trends. Right now I'm just giving you guys general warpage numbers. But some of these configurations were checked by 3 people with 3 bore gauges, so the fact that there's warpage is undeniable.

I don't think my block is exceptionally weak, being bored 40 over, to be more prone to warping than normal.

 

[BISHILVR]

Yeah, I understand what you are saying, and I'm not doubting you. The thing is though, 95% of torque plates are made of steel that I have been in contact with, and they have been used for decades on 2000 hp dragsters and nascar engines etc with no problems. Thats why I think that your problem lies with the method of machining or the block was weak itself or whatever. I dont want to see all steel torque plates condemned because of one bad experience that was most likely a problem elsewhere in the machining process.

 

[blue1]

Taper and out of round bores are caused by a bad or worn boring and honing equipment! A good machine will bore and hone a bore unrestrained (no torque plate) within .0002 for the length of the bore (Taper). so bored with a torque plate it will still bore and hone straight until when you check it after the torque plate is released you will find the top approx 2" of the bore will go out of round approx .0002 to .0004 where the pull from the studs has put pressure on the deck of the block.
Taper and ovality is caused by bad machining!

 

[TargeT]

A 4g63 Tq plate doesn't exsist in alaska. and there's been about 15-20 successful rebuilds (that included machining the block and sometimes head)

So, with that inmind, if you can't find one. don't worry too much