Time To Upgrade! GT35R BB vs. FP3065

[oldman]

So i look around and there are quite a few different 20g's. Which one would you recomend, i dont want it to laggy. I especially want it to fall into boost on a 5th to 3rd cuz if it doesnt that would suck.

Ok, I changed my mind. If you're looking for a bolt on internal gate, FP Green (50trim) would be my #1 choice.

 

[~laser_craver~]

Which one of these will spool the fastest? I dont thinke ither of them would have a problem at 25psi.

 

[JiggahMan]

Spool is almost identical between 20gs and greens.

 

[~laser_craver~]

20g is allot cheaper to so i think ima fall for that. With an external wg off the manifold and an open dump. What kinda injectors should ig et for a 20g at 25psi?

Also where did you get your dsmlink and where cani find an eprom ecu for a fwd 5spd 90.

 

[oldman]

20g is allot cheaper to so i think ima fall for that. With an external wg off the manifold and an open dump. What kinda injectors should ig et for a 20g at 25psi?

Like I posted before, it depends on what you will be tuning with. SAFC/MAFT - 680s max. eprom, dsmlink or standalone - 850s or 950s.

 

[~laser_craver~]

So with a 20g I could get away with tuning with an safc and maft? The last thing I wanna do is get a mass amount of knock and screw up my motor .

 

[nanokpsi]

So with a 20g I could get away with tuning with an safc and maft? The last thing I wanna do is get a mass amount of knock and screw up my motor .

To some extent. Since the MAFT/safc alters the airflow signal, you start giving adding in timing as a result of taking away fuel (hiding airflow). By going with injectors that are bigger than 680s you will have to start pulling a lot of fuel and end up adding a good bit of timing as well. Your tuning equipment is what is limiting your injectors, thus, your turbo sizing. Another option may be the have a chip made that can compensate for larger injectors so you don't have to "hide" as much airlfow with an SAFC/Maft.

 

[JiggahMan]

As long as your injectors are smalle than 680, yes you can tune with an SAFC.. I'd recommend 550cc or 600cc injectors and adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

 

[oldman]

As long as your injectors are smalle than 680, yes you can tune with an SAFC.. I'd recommend 550cc or 600cc injectors and adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

I disagree, 550s or 600s are way too small for either turbo, it's even too small for an EVO3 16g at 25psi. Yes, you can bump the pressure up a little but too high will burn out the injectors. If you're going with a piggyback fuel management, I suggest 650-680s, you will also need an afpr either way with the 255.

 

[~laser_craver~]

So for 25psi on a 20g I'd go with the following,

680cc injectors
255hp walbro fuelpump w/ rewire kit
afpr
all thet stainless fuel lines for fuel delivery and return
SAFC2
MAFT

other mods that will be going along with it

external wg on manifold and open dump under the car
dnp tubular mannifold with external mount
full 3'' rnr exhaust
evo3 o2 housing (ported)
new 3'' intake (my current one is 2 1/2'')


Does all of that seem to be the right way to go to you guys? What I plan on doing is buying 1 peice of it here and there and collect all the stuff. So within a few months I will hopefully be running it.

 

[ericbev]

If you decided to go with DSM-Link there are alot of places to pick up EPROMS. You could always check to see if you have one. I am not sure which 1Gs came with them and which did not. Here is a way to check.
http://www.tmo.com/howto/ecu1g/checkeprom.htm

You can get ECUs here.
http://www.car-part.com/
http://www.ecudirect.com/finditfast/
http://www.foreignecurepair.com/eprom.asp
http://www.ongreenperformance.com/

There are a few different 20G combinations out there. Most come standard with the 7cm2 turbine housing and usually offer two different wheels for them. The two main ones are the TDO6 and a TDO5H(sometimes clipped) wheels. The TDO6 wheel, while being a bit laggier, is better suited for operation at higher boost pressures versus the 5H which is a little more street friendly.

As for comp housings, I wouldn't go with "sleeper" units. I.E. a 20G wheel stuffed into a TDO5H (think 16G) housing. Stick with the TDO6 comp housing and have fun!

The FP Greeen, while being a bit more expensive, is an awesome choice. It is a mitsu/garret hybrid utilizing the mitsu hotside (either 7cm2 or 8cm2) and the TDO6H turbine wheel. Although the 6H is even bigger than the 6, FP says there was no response (spoolup) lost, only overall turbine flow. It uses the kickass garret comp wheel inside a modified TD06 compressor housing with a 3 inch inlet. It also come with their own ginormous thrust bearing.

The Green is available in both internal and external wastegate configurations. For externally gated applications, we highly recommend Tial wastegates. Your Green can be further customized with 7cm2 or 8cm2 turbine housings, turbine wheel clipping, wet or dry bearing housings, and polished compressor housings.

It may be a little more expensive but its one hell of a product with options to tailor it your exact application. I agree with oldman on this one 100%.

 

[ericbev]

So for 25psi on a 20g I'd go with the following,

680cc injectors
255hp walbro fuelpump w/ rewire kit
afpr
all thet stainless fuel lines for fuel delivery and return
SAFC2
MAFT

other mods that will be going along with it

external wg on manifold and open dump under the car
dnp tubular mannifold with external mount
full 3'' rnr exhaust
evo3 o2 housing (ported)
new 3'' intake (my current one is 2 1/2'')


Does all of that seem to be the right way to go to you guys? What I plan on doing is buying 1 peice of it here and there and collect all the stuff. So within a few months I will hopefully be running it.

Like you said above, you will also need a logger of some sort. There are alot of palm programs out there that can do quite a bit. Some of them are also free if I am correct.

I am personally going to run DSM-Link in my car because everything it has to offer comes from a single unit. ECU+ also sounds promising, but it would need some further development and support for me to take a serious look at it.

The DNP manifold is one pricey (but damn sexy) unit. If money is a factor, which it is for pretty much all of us, there are more cost-effective pieces. If you want to run an external gate on the manifold you could get SBR's cast unit or have a 2G adapted to run one. Any time you go to a tubular design you can expect a huge price increase (with no substantial gain in spool if any at all) as well as a chance that it might crack down the road.

I would definitley suggest going external for total boost control. You could ebay/trader your EVO manifold and pick up SBRs unit and a Tial 38mm for a decent price. Their manifold with 7cm gasket, ported, wastegate mount drilled, and a 38mm tial gate is $560 dollars.

 

[v2ner]

680cc's are fine for the 35R.....if you're running 110 octane or higher. That's at 25psi. If you know what you're doing, an AFC is fine too. I've never ran 680cc's w/ a 20G but I'm pretty sure it should be fine for at least 25psi on 110. Pump gas is a different story though. Just for your information, a 35R @19 psi feels like a 20G @28 psi. Which ever one you choose, good luck.

 

[dalatinromeo]

so have you decided which turbo are you going to go with?? i'm looking at this thread for the first time so to answer your first question. i would go with the FP3065. to tune DSMLINK. and definitly bigger injectors no smaller then 850's, 950's won't be badd either.

both of these two turbos will need a great driver, badd ass tune and lots of suppporting mods. These two turbos are bad ass turbos you cant go wrong with either of them. But you I would go with FP.

Stay boostin

 

[ericbev]

so have you decided which turbo are you going to go with?? i'm looking at this thread for the first time so to answer your first question. i would go with the FP3065. to tune DSMLINK. and definitly bigger injectors no smaller then 850's, 950's won't be badd either.

both of these two turbos will need a great driver, badd ass tune and lots of suppporting mods. These two turbos are bad ass turbos you cant go wrong with either of them. But you I would go with FP.

Stay boostin

You dont just slap on a 3065 when you havet even tuned your 16G. He is still on the stock fuel system, stock downpipe, no logging device, and on a B16G that hasnt even been tuned it at all! The 3065 is a serious power maker that isnt for the novice and isnt very street applicable. When will people get the idea that you dont need to go out and buy the biggest and baddest turbo around to be fast. Have you ever ridden in an 11sec street car? Its ####ing fast. In fact, its borderline silly to go that fast on the street.

With 3 thousand rpms of usuable power, its like a switch. Sure you can drive it on the street if you want. You could also drive a pro-stock down the street as long as there was a gas station every 25 blocks. He simply stated he was looking for a high eleven to twelve second pass, not a 10.2 at a 138mph.

He has realized that this turbo isnt really for him and we pointed him in the right direction.

You should read the whole thread. Dont just read the first post than go to the end and type what you think. It makes for more useable information for the person asking the question.

680cc's are fine for the 35R.....if you're running 110 octane or higher. That's at 25psi. If you know what you're doing, an AFC is fine too. I've never ran 680cc's w/ a 20G but I'm pretty sure it should be fine for at least 25psi on 110. Pump gas is a different story though. Just for your information, a 35R @19 psi feels like a 20G @28 psi. Which ever one you choose, good luck.

Negative. How many people have you see running a GT35R at 30+ psi (were it should be) running anything less than 950cc injectors? In fact, you wont find many of them tuning with anything less than a standalone system to boot.

680s would be OK with the 20G if your going the AFC route. If you do decide to go with something that can better compensate for bigger injectors, it is better to give yourself a little buffer zone rather than maxing out your IDC's and having to upgrade later. This is another one of the reasons you should consider a more comprehensively equipped engine management system.

Like I posted before, it depends on what you will be tuning with. SAFC/MAFT - 680s max. eprom, dsmlink or standalone - 850s or 950s.

Listen to Oldman. Hes old and hes a man.

 

[dalatinromeo]

You dont just slap on a 3065 when you havet even tuned your 16G. He is still on the stock fuel system, stock downpipe, no logging device, and on a B16G that hasnt even been tuned it at all! The 3065 is a serious power maker that isnt for the novice and isnt very street applicable. When will people get the idea that you dont need to go out and buy the biggest and baddest turbo around to be fast. Have you ever ridden in an 11sec street car? Its ####ing fast. In fact, its borderline silly to go that fast on the street.

With 3 thousand rpms of usuable power, its like a switch. Sure you can drive it on the street if you want. You could also drive a pro-stock down the street as long as there was a gas station every 25 blocks. He simply stated he was looking for a high eleven to twelve second pass, not a 10.2 at a 138mph.

Your 100% correct on that.

You should read the whole thread. Dont just read the first post than go to the end and type what you think. It makes for more useable information for the person asking the question.

I have read the whole thread and read the numerous post you have posted. I agree with what you have said. I was reading the thread like ericbev knows alot of what he is talking about not like some others. All I was doing was answering his question in the title which was "Time To Upgrade! GT35R BB VS FP3065."

 

[oztofrdm]

Negative. How many people have you see running a GT35R at 30+ psi (were it should be) running anything less than 950cc injectors? In fact, you wont find many of them tuning with anything less than a standalone system to boot.

Thats funny because two of my friend both have 35r's and i will shortly and we all run 720cc injectors, maft, Safc 1, and a chipped ecu. One runs a 9.6X and the other a 10.00

 

[ericbev]

Thats funny because two of my friend both have 35r's and i will shortly and we all run 720cc injectors, maft, Safc 1, and a chipped ecu. One runs a 9.6X and the other a 10.00

What kind of IDC's are you seeing? Most injector manufactuers wont suggest going above 80%. Most people can see 70-80%IDC easily with a E16G and 550-600ccs. This would be the buffer zone I was reffering to.

Using the MAFT, SAFC, and a chipped ECU is totally doable but it can complicate things by not having all of your variables and controls packed into one nice user friendly package. Most of the time you see one of these turbos on a shop car or equivalent they are running AEM EMS for its total single phase control and monitoring abilities along with infinite adjustability.

Lets not forget that if you added up your pieces (assuming they were all purchased new) MAFT, boost controller, GM MAS, SAFC, and a chipped ECU you would have a nice chunk of a good standalone system.

I have read the whole thread and read the numerous post you have posted. I agree with what you have said. I was reading the thread like ericbev knows alot of what he is talking about not like some others. All I was doing was answering his question in the title which was "Time To Upgrade! GT35R BB VS FP3065."

My bad. I was just a little confused. It seemed as if you just came in and read the first post and posted yourself. Next time, Ill try not to be such a pain.

 

[oztofrdm]

I have no idea what there IDC's are but every time they run at the track it seems that they are breaking up, up top which would mean that they are still rich. I know they are running a good bit over stock FPR. Im just trying to throw out there the fact that it can be done. I will probable get a bigger injector because its my DD and im gonna want to run pump gas on the weekdays and race on track days.

 

[daren_p]

680cc's are fine for the 35R.....if you're running 110 octane or higher. That's at 25psi. If you know what you're doing, an AFC is fine too. I've never ran 680cc's w/ a 20G but I'm pretty sure it should be fine for at least 25psi on 110. Pump gas is a different story though. Just for your information, a 35R @19 psi feels like a 20G @28 psi. Which ever one you choose, good luck.

Was just wondering if you had real proof about the 20g & 35r flow rates at those boost levels? I don't have experience with either so I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that a 35r at 19 psi will pull harder then a 20g at 28 psi. This is just based on the fact that I think 19 psi is to low to be in the 35r's effiency range, correct me if Im wrong. People go on saying ya the evoIII pulls harder @ 10 psi then the t25 does at 13 psi. Wrong, 10 psi just isn't enough boost for the evoIII and I have logs to prove this.

As for the turbo go with what oldman & ericbev are saying. Your origional choices are way to big for what your looking to do. When your looking at a 20g because of the different varities, when you add the larger tdo6 wheel you will be pretty close to the price of a green. Which has been proven over & over again to be a great street/strip turbo. My vote would be for the FP Green as well. If you wanted to spend abit more you could always look into the FP 3052. There are a tonn of different 50 trim variaties out there. The new PTE dual BB units might be something you may want to look into.

Depending on your tunning method I would go 650-680 for a piggyback system. My vote would be to go dsmlink though and run 750+ so you don't have to upgrade in the future.

 

[ericbev]

I have no idea what there IDC's are but every time they run at the track it seems that they are breaking up, up top which would mean that they are still rich. I know they are running a good bit over stock FPR. Im just trying to throw out there the fact that it can be done. I will probable get a bigger injector because its my DD and im gonna want to run pump gas on the weekdays and race on track days.

I didnt say it couldnt be done.

GT35R on a build motor has made over 600WHP. Lets use the fuel calc here and lay it out. Lets not forget that most will max out at 80% IDC. So well consider the safety zone 55-65%. Assuming drivetrain loss. Well call crank HP of a good high boost setup 650HP.

Using the fuel injector worksheet at the bottom of the page so everyone can see.
http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm

650hp crank hp
4 Injectors
brake specific fuel consumption of 0.60
IDC of 80%
fuel pressure at 71psi (base of 36 plus 1psi for each of the 35psi of boost)

It spits out (a rough calc) of 1003ccs.

Of course this assumes that you could shove enough pump gas to run the calculated 650hp. On race gas the value would be lower. But we did use 80% IDC as our value which isnt good.

I know AMS ran 1000s on that black EVO from florida that was all the hype when the vidoes of it came out destroying all sorts of other cars shortly after installing their GT35R kit. They also run them on their GT42 equipped shop car which only sees race gas. I dont know what kind of fuel pressure trickery they run with their dual pump setup though. TopStreets GT42 equipped 1G is running 1300s. Big Al's Dynoflash 35R equipped EVO8 also runs 1000s with alcy injection.

 

[ericbev]

Was just wondering if you had real proof about the 20g & 35r flow rates at those boost levels? I don't have experience with either so I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that a 35r at 19 psi will pull harder then a 20g at 28 psi. This is just based on the fact that I think 19 psi is to low to be in the 35r's effiency range, correct me if Im wrong. People go on saying ya the evoIII pulls harder @ 10 psi then the t25 does at 13 psi. Wrong, 10 psi just isn't enough boost for the evoIII and I have logs to prove this.

As for the turbo go with what oldman & ericbev are saying. Your origional choices are way to big for what your looking to do. When your looking at a 20g because of the different varities, when you add the larger tdo6 wheel you will be pretty close to the price of a green. Which has been proven over & over again to be a great street/strip turbo. My vote would be for the FP Green as well. If you wanted to spend abit more you could always look into the FP 3052. There are a tonn of different 50 trim variaties out there. The new PTE dual BB units might be something you may want to look into.

The efficiency of the GT40comp/GT35turbine wheels allows some damn decent pump numbers.
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/TURBO/COMPMAP/gt35r_line.jpg
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=58967&d=1136834676

My favorite for 450 WHP on pump is simply the GT35R. You can make 450-500 WHP on pump in almost any turbine housing (T3, Bullseye, PTE, FP, SBR) and retain the factory manifold and o2 housings.

If you are looking for more than 450 WHP I would suggest going external however, as it makes life easier when trying to run higher boost levels. From what we have seen here, ever the best internal WG's have trouble over 25-27 PSI.
MGH

From one of the hundred "pump gas king" threads ^^

 

[oztofrdm]

your making good points im just trying put out some info. since everyone is so quick to upgrade there injectors when you REALLY dont have to. There are plenty of guys out there running 9's on injectors in the 7XXcc range. That is with added fpr and race gas. Now if i was gonna run straight pump gas at the same boost pressure i would get a the bigger injectors in the 9XX-1XXXcc range. Just depends on pump or race i guess

 

[daren_p]

your making good points im just trying put out some info. since everyone is so quick to upgrade there injectors when you REALLY dont have to. There are plenty of guys out there running 9's on injectors in the 7XXcc range. That is with added fpr and race gas. Now if i was gonna run straight pump gas at the same boost pressure i would get a the bigger injectors in the 9XX-1XXXcc range. Just depends on pump or race i guess

Well for reference, on Ultra 94, running an 11 to 1 air/fuel ratio on the street, I see ~65% duty cycle on 750 cc injectors & this is only on a evoIII @ 18 psi.

 

[oztofrdm]

^^^ Whats your base fpr. That plays a huge part