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1G The 4g63 headgasket fiasco....

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Well fella's, I had to STAND on my engine stand to do it. I am not the big green dude LOL.
 
Holy lugnuts torque Batman!

Torquing horizontally is harder than applying the same torque vertically. Wheel studs you apply in a downward motion and it's easier. I use a 1/2" drive torque wrench for both and at 90ft-lbs in both scenarios it's very easy to do for lug nuts, but it takes me much more effort to do the head bolts for my racecar.
Sorry, I meant the axle nut, not lug nut. I still don't remember having a hard time on my ARPs.
 
Do you have a small torque wrench or something? I do my lugnuts to 140ft/lbs and it's easy as hell. I have a big torque wrench though.
I found some humor in this response when you re-read it! Maybe your torque wrench is bigger than mime we will never know!:D

Serious note yeah man The torque wrench I used is a good sized digital one had to still use a bar for leverage to get to 105ft lbs. Can you imagine 140ft lbs.

I think I would go minimum 105 to 110. I went 105ft lbs.

Holy lugnuts torque Batman!

Torquing horizontally is harder than applying the same torque vertically. Wheel studs you apply in a downward motion and it's easier. I use a 1/2" drive torque wrench for both and at 90ft-lbs in both scenarios it's very easy to do for lug nuts, but it takes me much more effort to do the head bolts for my racecar.
Yep!!!!
 
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100ftlbs, moly lube, and it's not that difficult, but that may be because I have a long wrench. You know, leverage and science and stuff.
What is science...... this is dsmtuners. We believe if we think hard enough, that is the way it is.

~95ftlbs here with moly lube. ~105ftlbs with oil.
 
I think the most important factor is using the torque set when the head was torque plated... I would really like to know at what point you are just pulling the washer into the head casting. I think after a certain point the amount of torque is irrelevant. Im not an engineer but it I feel like extra torque beyond 100ft lbs is pointless......I wish someone could do an experiment to quantify the load on the gasket material. The gasket can only be compressed to a certain point, id imagine the aluminum would yield before the gasket does. The amount of energy these studs apply to the deck surface is incredible..
 
I think the most important factor is using the torque set when the head was torque plated... I would really like to know at what point you are just pulling the washer into the head casting. I think after a certain point the amount of torque is irrelevant. Im not an engineer but it I feel like extra torque beyond 100ft lbs is pointless......I wish someone could do an experiment to quantify the load on the gasket material. The gasket can only be compressed to a certain point, id imagine the aluminum would yield before the gasket does. The amount of energy these studs apply to the deck surface is incredible..

Just for practice, I set my torque wrench to 90 ft/lb this afternoon, used stock head studs, lubed them with transaxle/differential (high-pressure) grease and started torquing the head. I used old gasket and head that needs servicing. My wrench is 18" long. It did not take as much effort as I thought it would to get it up to 90 ft/lb but it felt like I was going to break something...the studs would snap or the threads deform. It was not comfortable feeling. I will unbolt the head tomorrow and examine the studs for damage.
 
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I think the most important factor is using the torque set when the head was torque plated... I would really like to know at what point you are just pulling the washer into the head casting. I think after a certain point the amount of torque is irrelevant. Im not an engineer but it I feel like extra torque beyond 100ft lbs is pointless......I wish someone could do an experiment to quantify the load on the gasket material. The gasket can only be compressed to a certain point, id imagine the aluminum would yield before the gasket does. The amount of energy these studs apply to the deck surface is incredible..
Wahlen R&D knows of it. I think ARP has it now. Thats on the down low tho. :shhh::shhh::shhh: Rumor has it... That's why they are R&D'ing!!
I've heard of better torque spread with near normal or normal clamp loads.
BTW with L19's they feel STRONG.
 
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Wahlen R&D knows of it. I think ARP has it now. Thats on the down low tho. :shhh::shhh::shhh: Rumor has it... That's why they are R&D'ing!!
I've heard of better torque spread with near normal or normal clamp loads.
BTW with L19's they feel STRONG.
The l19s are rock hard. These studs are wonderful, not to mention we have the larger shank diameter over the 7 bolts. I can't imagine these studs failing at 99% of the ho/boost normal guys run. If your getting to the point where your half filling the block.....your probably running some diesel ass studs. From what I understand the big horsepower guys aren't blowing heads off, there blowing the block apart. That should tell you something.
 
What is science...... this is dsmtuners. We believe if we think hard enough, that is the way it is.

~95ftlbs here with moly lube. ~105ftlbs with oil.

No disrespect to anyone here but I am having hard time believing that science here is of any help with overcoming physical limitations. This thread is all about torquing head bolts above factory specs. Well, without further ado, learning the hard way, let me draw everybody's attention to a broken head bolt and may that be your warning before you try to crank oem head bolts above 72 FT/LB.

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The head bolt in the pic above snapped at less than 80 ft/lb. Contrary to my post of June 12/17, I discovered that my torque wrench (clicker) was garbage and failed to crank anything above ~65 ft/lb. Even though not the most convenient, I find beam torque wrench the most accurate and reliable in the long run. So I went back to my trusted beam torque wrench and started bolting my head. I lubricated the head bolts with Valvoline high pressure ball bearing grease. Bolting the head in proper sequence and in 20 ft/lb increments, reaching 60 ft/lb was effortless and accomplished with one hand on the handle and picking my nose with the other. Still picking my nose with one hand and tightening head bolts with the other, starting with head bolt #10 and cranking it to 80ft/lb, the bolt snapped at less than 80. For that reason, I am very skeptical of all the claims here regarding bolting heads and not snapping head bolts. This post is my contribution to those who want to try....you will be dealing with a broken bolt stuck in the block. Beware of all macho claims w/o disclaimers...or be prepared to be mortified!
 
I was speaking to arps. Not oem.
Oem specs are as followed
cold - 65-72 ft.lbs
hot - 72-80 ft.lbs

ARP I believe calls out 80 ft.lbs on their sheet that comes with the studs. This is with using the moly lube. If you dont have moly lube you can use oil and bump up the tq ~10-15 ft.lbs

This is typically first time uses as well. The more you use them the more they will stretch. If you reused them then I could foresee this happening.

Looking at the pic it looks like you were using ARPs. If they broke at that low of torque be thankful you didnt run them. They were stretched beyond their limit.
 
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I was speaking to arps. Not oem.
Oem specs are as followed
cold - 65-72 ft.lbs
hot - 72-80 ft.lbs

ARP I believe calls out 80 ft.lbs on their sheet that comes with the studs. This is with using the moly lube. If you dont have moly lube you can use oil and bump up the tq ~10-15 ft.lbs

This is typically first time uses as well. The more you use them the more they will stretch. If you reused them then I could foresee this happening.

Looking at the pic it looks like you were using ARPs. If they broke at that low of torque be thankful you didnt run them. They were stretched beyond their limit.

This was the third time these head bolts were used and they were torqued w/i spec, no more than 70ft/lb each time. this was the first time I started pushing them towards and over 8o ft/lb since this thread insinuates there would be no problems towards 100ft/lb.
I'm not clear on what you meant by "...be thankful you didnt run them"? Once they are in and set, what force does it take to break them off the block on the road?
 
I think the most important factor is using the torque set when the head was torque plated... I would really like to know at what point you are just pulling the washer into the head casting. I think after a certain point the amount of torque is irrelevant. Im not an engineer but it I feel like extra torque beyond 100ft lbs is pointless......I wish someone could do an experiment to quantify the load on the gasket material. The gasket can only be compressed to a certain point, id imagine the aluminum would yield before the gasket does. The amount of energy these studs apply to the deck surface is incredible..

Did someone call for an engineer??
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Ok, I'm not going to advocate for or against anything in this thread, I just want to point out the high level variables in bolted joint design:

1) What you are ultimately after with any given bolted joint is axial force, tensile force, known as preload.
2) Determination of said axial force is a function of: thread pitch, material for the female threads, friction in the threads, effective thread engagement cross sectional area (determines resultant thread stresses), material for the bolt, cross sectional area for the bolt, material against which bolt flange clamps, bolt flange effective area, and friction between the bolt flange and its associated mating surface.
3) Torque wrenches are notoriously inaccurate, even the "good" ones. This is usually accounted for in specifying a nominal torque that accounts for experimentally acquired torque spreads. Even using the same torque wrench under the exact same conditions back to back, often creates some measurable difference in preload.
4) Studs are quite different than bolts in the application of torque during tightening in two key ways:
-there is no friction to overcome in the threads used to initially install the stud
-as a result of this, a stud has much lower torsional deflection during tightening which makes hitting a target preload more likely
5) If all variable are properly attended to, a bolt and a stud can achieve exactly the same thing

Those are some of the high level facts as I know them; draw conclusions at your own peril.
 
Did someone call for an engineer??
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3) Torque wrenches are notoriously inaccurate, even the "good" ones. This is usually accounted for in specifying a nominal torque that accounts for experimentally acquired torque spreads. Even using the same torque wrench under the exact same conditions back to back, often creates some measurable difference in preload.
.

Not so. Any average beam torque wrenches are between 1-3% in accuracy, the middle third of the range is where they are closer to 1%. The only calibration a beam torque wrench requires is alignment of the zero mark, this is accomplished by tweaking the beam to align it.
 
Not so. Any average beam torque wrenches are between 1-3% in accuracy, the middle third of the range is where they are closer to 1%. The only calibration a beam torque wrench requires is alignment of the zero mark, this is accomplished by tweaking the beam to align it.

Well, that's what the manufacturers of those torque wrenches will say, but they are still rather inaccurate. I've poured over plenty of torque spread data plots and have done plenty of bolted joint design work so I'm not just talking out of my caboose here. As I said, even the same torque wrench under the exact same conditions has repeatability, and therefore accuracy problems. You have to remember that there is a difference between what a torque wrench reads and the resultant preload created due to the applied torque.
 
Just a little update. Im not an expert by any means, these are just my opinions. I have built 3 4g63 engines from the bottom up to date. I have built several hondas in the d, b and H series models and 1 ej25. In all of those motors I have had the most difficulty keeping the 4g63 headgasket intact. All of these engines are 4 cylinder ranging from 1.6l to 2.2. The only major difference design wise is that honda and subaru have aluminum blocks with iron liners. The head designs vary but share many similarities. The first engine I built and tuned was a b16a running zdyne for fuel management. I never had any issues with head gaskets and I beat the crap out of that engine. I still believe my biggest mistake I made was with my tune. I really believe that anyone building and tuning a 4g63 should make sure before anything that they lower their timing considerably.The 1g map is very aggressive and shouldnt be used imo. I think for most people the 2g map is the best STARTING point. I went through 3 headgaskets before really listening and doing my research. The minute I lowered my timing (at peak boost) all of my problems went away. Im currently running 38 psi with about 3 degrees peak and my car runs like a top. If I could make any other recommendation.....Run an hks headgasket. Youll be glad you did.
 
I think your builds deserve a pat on the back as you explain how to finally get it right and let others know YOUR experiences. Thanks for feeding back to the forum, thats one of the best things on here. :thumb:

Will that HKS hold 45 psi all day? I need to know as you know. Thanks again!
 
If you are down to 3*, and need a hks gasket to keep it together it's time to find a new hobby.
At the dyno I made 640whp I was around 5 degrees at 5800 and ramped up from there to about 9 give or take. Now that im closer to 40 psi ive lowered the timing to about 3 degrees at 5500 and ramped from there.

I guess what im saying is for guys just starting out. Dont overthink it, make sure your head and block are flat and torque the f***ing head down. The key is.....get the car tuned properly-period. No...well ill just take it up the street and boost a little. Ask me how i know. The best thing i did was switch to a 2g timing table and go from there. What I didnt understand at the begining was what everyone meant by timing at "peak" not necessarily peak timing. One can be taken as the highest timing value you ran on the table vs the amount of timing during peak load/boost. The stock motor saw 20+ degrees of timing spraying meth on 93 with a composite.... this was the result after 5 months of abuse. You live and you learn.I am currently building a auto talon for drag, the new engine i built is going in it. I plan on pushing this car to the limit....

I think your builds deserve a pat on the back as you explain how to finally get it right and let others know YOUR experiences. Thanks for feeding back to the forum, thats one of the best things on here. :thumb:

Will that HKS hold 45 psi all day? I need to know as you know. Thanks again!
Thanks for that.....I try to give back as much as i have taken. The hks gasket is a work of art. Youll have no problems. Trust me.

If you are down to 3*, and need a hks gasket to keep it together it's time to find a new hobby.
Im curious if you would like to share? What would consider safe timing at the onset of full boost say around 5-6k? This is in a setup running 60+lbs /min on e85?
 

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I'm not clear on what you meant by "...be thankful you didnt run them"? Once they are in and set, what force does it take to break them off the block on the road?

What would happen if you installed them and they were already into the elastic deformation of the material, yet they didnt break on install? The first time the engine sees higher cylinder pressures it could snap the stud/bolt. Yes you may argue that the other bolts may not be into the elastic deformation of the material however if one is there, its safe to say the rest are around/near that limit.
Long story short, chances are you would have pushed coolant out of the system between the head and block. This may only happen under higher loads, or if it was real bad, it would leak all the time. Hard to say however neither are good.
 
Following.. What makes the HKS gasket into this great solution? compared to a Felpro or MLS version?
There is a great review on youtube, The guy drags his evo and runs down all of the gaskets he uses. The hks gasket layers are much thicker and are able to handle detonation much better. The felpro gasket for instance has a very thin inner layer. I dont know if they design this intentionally to act as a fuse but he clearly demenstrates why the hks is better and worth the money

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I don't know what's safe, all I know is that my car runs 140s, it's 3300, street tuned, and I do with with standard arps and a cheap hg. My timing is more than you, at similar boost. And I'd still consider it conservative.
 
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