Supercharger/turbo setup....

[TT_NS]

all right guys i got an interesting setup. i drew up two diagrams for the 1g dsm with a supercharger and a turbo. one is more basic then the other. on the first set up i have the turbo connected before the supercharger. The reason for this is that it is a simpler set up. You would not half to worry about "back wash" if you would. The idea behind this set up is that the supercharger would simply suck air threw the same intake as the turbo. giving the engine boost while the turbo is taking its time spooling up. then when the turbo spools up it will increase boost. Although i find this a really crapy set up . There would be so much air friction going on in this. First from the turbo being in the way of the supercharger and visa versa. So i thought id try something a little more interesting. Then i came up with the second diagram. In this one the supercharger has its own intake which will reduce friction. But this is where i run into a problem. When the boost being created transfers from the supercharger to the turbo i need to release all pressure being created by the supercharger so i can close off that entire area with a valve that will prevent the turbos pressure from being pushed back out the supercharger. Make since? Dose any one know of a anything that works like a BOV but releases under certain pressure? Any way the pressure from the turbo will shut the valve to the supercharger. hope you can picture how that would work. I was also thinking for either application i could fabricate a pulley or use the one off the A/C on the car so the Supercharger could be turned off and on by a clutch just like the A/C. Although i wouldn't have any idea how i could control the relay from turneing off and on without me hitting a button. that might be to complex for me. I noticed if you take out the A/C you have plenty of space for a Vortech supercharger in that area. That is my plan. Its nice to come up with something a little different then what other people are doing. Just another way to get the power so please don't bash the idea. But let me know some ideas you guys come up with. This would take allot of fabrication but im up for the work.

 

[RedTalonTsi]

I think its a great idea, its people willing to think outside the box who drive innovation. I hope to see TT_NS keep with it until he gets it to work. For those naysayers, it HAS been done before, did you not read thekellbeast's posts showing it was a sytem used succsesfully in rally racing? Also, for those saying, "John Shepard doesn't use one," or "if you want spool off the line use a two-step," consider that there is more to driving than drag-racing, and this system is about useable power throughout the RPM range, which is useful in, guess what....rally racing, where it was used succsessfully. It would also be useful for road-racing, you get the idea. Keep the faith TT_NS!

 

[GVR4592]

well never mind I found it. its a Mercedes Eaton M62 roots blower. it was used on the 98-03 Mercedes SLK230, C230 2.3L and utilises an electromagnetic clutch pulley. Im thinking this will only push max 10 psi but that could work good enough since all the big SC dont have the clutch. DOse any one know where i can find the compression map for it? Actualy do you think that pully could fit on another SC?

The M62 is a very common roots type supercharger , here are the map's for it : http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html#eaton

 

[GVR4592]

Toyota also used a clutch on the supercharger pulley, I believe it was on the 4age MR2.

 

[TT_NS]

Thanks for the insperation RedTalonTSI. and thanks for the help GVR. im going to take a look at that SC for the mr2 on the internet tomorrow and check it out. The map says the m62 makes 100 cfm at 4000 SC RPM's which is about 2941 Engine RPM's (4000x1.36 Thats the crank ratio) How much CFM dose the 1g engine use to estimate boost. what do you guys think the pressure would be at that point

 

[Superbeast406]

Now this thread has got me thinking. I need to figure out pully ratios, and check the direction the turbo spins, but if you could turn the turbo around so that the compressor is on the accesory drive side of the motor, then make an extension from the compressor wheel. Yep, then all you would need is a one way pully, like what they put on alternators on newer cars, then you wouldn't need a rpm or boost activated switch because once the exhaust gas has enough flow to out spin the engine the pully starts to free wheel. Of course I'm not an engineer, nor do I know anything about centrifugal superchargers. This all just came to me when I read the thread about flipping the turbo. Anybody feel free to find flaws in this, or improvements.

 

[TT_NS]

Now this thread has got me thinking. I need to figure out pully ratios, and check the direction the turbo spins, but if you could turn the turbo around so that the compressor is on the accesory drive side of the motor, then make an extension from the compressor wheel. Yep, then all you would need is a one way pully, like what they put on alternators on newer cars, then you wouldn't need a rpm or boost activated switch because once the exhaust gas has enough flow to out spin the engine the pully starts to free wheel. Of course I'm not an engineer, nor do I know anything about centrifugal superchargers. This all just came to me when I read the thread about flipping the turbo. Anybody feel free to find flaws in this, or improvements.

not a bad idea that would be a turbo id deffenetly want. the only problem i guess would be is that it would run like a vortech SC and wouldent build to much boost at lower RPM's.

 

[Superbeast406]

But with the right pulley ratio, it would still build more boost than the turbine alone. Good bye lag.

 

[tsibryan]

Now this thread has got me thinking. I need to figure out pully ratios, and check the direction the turbo spins, but if you could turn the turbo around so that the compressor is on the accesory drive side of the motor, then make an extension from the compressor wheel. Yep, then all you would need is a one way pully, like what they put on alternators on newer cars, then you wouldn't need a rpm or boost activated switch because once the exhaust gas has enough flow to out spin the engine the pully starts to free wheel. Of course I'm not an engineer, nor do I know anything about centrifugal superchargers. This all just came to me when I read the thread about flipping the turbo. Anybody feel free to find flaws in this, or improvements.

I've been thinking about this for a while too. Sounds simple, but there's probably some little stuff that would be tricky. Such as avoiding lateral force on the shaft (maybe use a BB turbo?). Also, I'm not an engineer, but if the turbo is belt-driven to boost, the exhaust side of the turbo might create a vacuum and have adverse effects on performance at low rpm. But I could be completely wrong, I have nothing to back that up.

 

[TT_NS]

interesting. actualy i bet a vacume on exhuast would be a good thing. That = less drag on the engine. Plus that might give the turbine more momentum too.

 

[RayPeters]

Basic design is a sequential turbo/supercharger setup, intercooled and methanol injected. Dual electronic boost management and extensive ECU code mods to deal with the 25psi available @ 2000rpm. The goal is maximum torque, not max HP, and no lag.

TD0518G turbo and an eaton supercharger are the core components, and some crazy custom intake parts to get it all under the hood. Coils relocated to the valve cover mostly for space considerations, although the added performance doesn't hurt.

Throttle response is crisp to say the least, the hardest part is keeping the boost UNDER 30 psi. So the end of the story is like this, Both the boost controller and the supercharger conversion are under development for Stage Rally and street use, I wish I had better status on the forums so I could post in the other sections. I've been tuning DSM's since 95 and also have a 3lv6 TT 91 Talon that dad plays with on the weekends. I hope this helps some, I will be posting more once I get some details sorted out. Prelinary testing indicates 500 lb ft of torque from 3000-5500 and a peak of just over 400 hp at the wheels. I'm still rollin on stock internals so I have to be careful with the HP stuff, and there have been recent issues with head gasket leaks with the high cylinder pressures I'm getting.

Dyno time is forthcoming, as are more pics, coments welcome, questions welcome, and without sounding like a plug, I will say the progress looks good enough that I might reproduce this in the future.

 

[RayPeters]

Here's 2 photos of the install. Anyone in the Phoenix AZ area can make it out to the meeting tonight and see it in person.

 

[JayRolla]

WOW!!!!!!

3lv6 TT 91 Talon???????????????????????????????????

 

[gimpybrad]

No need to say anymore, other then; if it works I want one

 

[gst25401]

That's some crazy, wild shit man. I'd like to see some pics of that talon also!

 

[jarero]

I would love to see your dyno sheets when you get them. Do you have any install pics?

 

[dsmfreak555]

Wow!!!! can we say tranny breaker!!! I always wondered whether someone would take the time to build a twin-charger setup(I believe thats what this setup is called). 25psi by 2000rpms is sick!!! also what 3lV6 TT motor did you put in there? the 3g eclipse motor??? must have been alot of custom work. Good job!

 

[drivemusicnow]

I thought the 3kgt came with a twin turbo 3 Liter motor stock.. (I'm pretty sure of this)

The motor in the DSM is a stock 4g63.

Interesting idea. I'm curious what you're using to tune/reduce detonation. The stock 7.8 compression pistons probably help, but you're obviously need some tight fuel control to be able to push those kinds of numbers.

I guess I'm also a little pessemistic about 500+ft lbs of torque and only 400 hp, but a dyno sheet should probably clear that up.

Also, what is that cooler ish bolted onto the valve cover? I would think power steering, but that wouldn't seem to get a lot of air flow.

 

[RayPeters]

The engine was out of a 3000gt vr4, mated to a talon awd tranny. YES there is an adapter plate involved, and no I really don't want to EVER do it again. I can say it took me 18 months and stuffed in the engine compartment is an understatement. I have a few install pics, some mockup photos and stuff, tomorrow I might get to posting them.

 

[RayPeters]

I guess I'm also a little pessemistic about 500+ft lbs of torque and only 400 hp, but a dyno sheet should probably clear that up

.

I can respect your skepticism, and The numbers I'm working with right now are from airflow/fuel delivery calculations and I am choosing to limit the HP at this point with a very modest 6500 rpm rev limit and I drop the boost near redline to protect the engine.

 

[RayPeters]

The engine managment is stock 1g eprom ecu with a seriously hacked version of the 1g disassembled code. the ignition map has been the hardest to get right, even with methanol injection low rpm detonation is a real danger and effective compression ratios near 16 to 1 on boost don't help. I may have serious issues here in phoenix in the summer when engine bay temps soar.

 

[GSTinCO]

Let's see some dyno charts and some pics or better yet movies of it and get you out of the newb status. Would you like to explain how you accomplished shutting of the supercharger for higher revving or are you running them both at higher rpm's?

 

[RayPeters]

I'll be shooting video tonight at the DSM meet. Post tomorrow. The dyno sheets will take a little longer but I think I can get something once I find a shop that will be careful with my baby.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

I would think you could make some sort of clutch system to engage/disengauge the compressor in the supercharger to disable it in the higher rpm where the turbo would outperform the superchager.

Also your saying you have the 3kGT VR4 6-cyl engine in there???

 

[RayPeters]

I run them both all the time, did some research, and for my goals there weren't enough benefits to make the clutch / bypass stuff worth the trouble. It just improves the response at higher RPM .

 

[RayPeters]

No on the v6 in this car. I said I have another car with the v6 in it. I shouldn't have confused the issue by mentioning both. sorry