Supercharger/turbo setup....

[TT_NS]

all right guys i got an interesting setup. i drew up two diagrams for the 1g dsm with a supercharger and a turbo. one is more basic then the other. on the first set up i have the turbo connected before the supercharger. The reason for this is that it is a simpler set up. You would not half to worry about "back wash" if you would. The idea behind this set up is that the supercharger would simply suck air threw the same intake as the turbo. giving the engine boost while the turbo is taking its time spooling up. then when the turbo spools up it will increase boost. Although i find this a really crapy set up . There would be so much air friction going on in this. First from the turbo being in the way of the supercharger and visa versa. So i thought id try something a little more interesting. Then i came up with the second diagram. In this one the supercharger has its own intake which will reduce friction. But this is where i run into a problem. When the boost being created transfers from the supercharger to the turbo i need to release all pressure being created by the supercharger so i can close off that entire area with a valve that will prevent the turbos pressure from being pushed back out the supercharger. Make since? Dose any one know of a anything that works like a BOV but releases under certain pressure? Any way the pressure from the turbo will shut the valve to the supercharger. hope you can picture how that would work. I was also thinking for either application i could fabricate a pulley or use the one off the A/C on the car so the Supercharger could be turned off and on by a clutch just like the A/C. Although i wouldn't have any idea how i could control the relay from turneing off and on without me hitting a button. that might be to complex for me. I noticed if you take out the A/C you have plenty of space for a Vortech supercharger in that area. That is my plan. Its nice to come up with something a little different then what other people are doing. Just another way to get the power so please don't bash the idea. But let me know some ideas you guys come up with. This would take allot of fabrication but im up for the work.

 

[GVR4592]

What's the point? To give more torque before the boost from the turbo kicks in?

 

[TT_NS]

What's the point? To give more torque before the boost from the turbo kicks in?

for the most part yes. You know how nice that would be to have boost almost off the line with an AWD car then able to keep boosting without the limitation of a supercharger. thats an experience id like to have. But id like to stick to the subject of the diagrams rather then talk about why i want to do this.

 

[GVR4592]

It would be nice, but there are other factors that come into play, mainly camshaft, cylinder head and intake manifold design. Those components in our engines won't alloy much torque below 3000 RPM's. This is something that has been discussed many times. It's not commonly done because it really doesn't work that well. Another thing to keep in mind is the Vortech or any centrifugal supercharger, won't make peak boost any sooner than the turbo will.

To really take advantage of this you would want to use a roots type blower, a dual runner intake, and some type of vtec system.

 

[mopardwh]

There have been several theorys and attemps at this. All of which have issues. I have also beat myself in the head over this several years back. As of right now I say screw it; if wanna spool up faster spray it. Turbo's are better than superchargers.

But, if you want a good example; Lancia Delta S4.
Intake-turbo-intercooler-supercharger-intercooler-split: bov back to turbo, and into manifold.

 

[TT_NS]

i had a 56 trim in my talon (befor it got stolen) that thing laged so bad. i know a vortech woulda been nice to have at the same time. The Vortech will hit peak boost alot faster then that turbo. A good supercharger to use for quick boost is the Root. the only problem is it creates heat. but thats coo since i got the air goen threw the intercooler any way. i no there doing that setup on a EVO i saw around DSMtuners some where. I just want to see a diagram of a working set up.

 

[napkinthief]

Dose any one know of a anything that works like a BOV but releases under certain pressure?

I think thats how an external wastegate operates. My tial would be shut (holding in pressure) from vaccuum to .6 bar, then open anything higher than .6 bar (~8 psi).


You may be better off using a twin turbo intercooler, which has 2 chambers inside one, running the supercharger through one and the turbo through the other. Then make a 2 to 1 header, kind of like the 4-2-1 exhaust headers and a flap that would flip depending on boost (internal wastegate). You can have the flap have 2 sides that seal, so only one can be "open" at a time.

 

[napkinthief]

Using the second picture, install an external wastegate on the supercharger piping and install a spring kit in the wastegate at the pressure you want the turbo to take over. Then run a boost line from the pipe between the turbo and the anti blowback valve. The antiblowback valve can be any piece of sealed round metal that will close the supercharger path, stopping any turbo boost leak that would happen.

This way, the supercharger still runs, but blows into the atmosphere instead of the engine. The turbo has time to spool as the supercharger pushes air into the engine. Once the turbo spools, the wastegate opens up and vents all the air blowing out the supercharger into the atmosphere and the turbo takes over the engine.


I would love to hear the sound a supercharger blowing out all the pressure its creating out a wastegate, while another wastegate goes off because max boost is reached, then at the sound of a bov, everything ends.

 

[unlmtdndeavor]

whenever i heard s/c and turbo, it reminds me of the hks twin charger setups for the 4ag's in the mr2 and hatchi. man those are sahweeet

 

[bushy]

Superchargers can only spin as fast as the crankshaft is spinning, so it wouldnt create full boost until redline.

 

[spoolup]

The new minis are doing the twin charging route, I have seen figures as high as 330Whp with this setup. Alta Webb and a few others are incorperating a T28 turbo into the mix, not to bad with a 1.4L. NOW there are a few guys who have just scrapped the SC altogether and running just the turbo, in the cooper forums they have a guy who has made 410Whp again on a 1.4L. This next year the cooper will be sporting a turbo from the factory. I wonder why? After owning both turbo'ed and SC cars I love the turbos more (88 turbocoupe thunderchicken, and 2 DSMs). Even though I am still contemplating a cooper this year. On the northamericanmotoring forums they have a twin charged cooper pulling a R6 on the freeway 3rd thru 6th. NOW that is awesome. I have been keeping my DSM as sleep as can be minus the HUGE FMIC. But who would suspect a rinki dink cooper to lay down as much power as my DSM?

On a side note, the new eu golf with sport twincharging, but still 175HP? what was the stock HP on the DSM and EVO? I still have no doubts about the TC alone, and like other have stated, juice, antilag/ studder, and NLTS, helps keep the lag to a minimum.

 

[TT_NS]

stock HP for a TSI is 190 the evo is 2 somthing. I dident think about using an external waist gate thats a good idea. and bushy the supercharger will make full boost way befor redline. its a ratio from the pullys. the pully on the SC should be smaller then the crankshaft pully. Any one have an oppinion on what to use to block off the SC so there is no boost leak when the turbo is running. Also what do you guys think about the whole clutch idea for the SC. I think that it wouldent be needed if you use the external waist gate though. So neva mind about that I guess.

Hey what should be done about the boost being made from the turbo while the supercharger is begin used? I dont think its a good idea to have pressure building up like that.

SO this is the plan of operation:

-supercharger starts boosten wich closes the valve to the turbo
-supercharger hits maxboost. lets say somewhere between 15 and 20lbs. The already spooled turbo will boost past 21 lbs and make the wastgate for the SC open and realeas all pressure. the blockoff valve will close off the SC and the turbo will continue to spool.

 

[spoolup]

I was just being sarcastic about the HP of our car vs a car with twincharging. But I understand some like to have a wide power band or just hate lag. I personally think lag is awesome, kind of like foreplay, they are like, "yeah! I have him", then they see taillights. But mucho props if you get the system to work efficiantly.

 

[GILZTSIAWD]

Get dsmlink or a chip with a launch limiter and say goodbye to lag off the line.

 

[TT_NS]

I was just being sarcastic about the HP of our car vs a car with twincharging. But I understand some like to have a wide power band or just hate lag. I personally think lag is awesome, kind of like foreplay, they are like, "yeah! I have him", then they see taillights. But mucho props if you get the system to work efficiantly.

i like that. foreplay.

 

[spoolup]

I think I first seen it on slowboys Tshirt : http://www.slowboyracing.com//more.php?id=1687&

 

[GVR4592]

You need to do some more research on centrifugal superchargers.

 

[aero_sallee]

and bushy the supercharger will make full boost way befor redline. its a ratio from the pullys. the pully on the SC should be smaller then the crankshaft pully.

A centrifugal supercharger, vortech, paxton, ect Will make full boost at redline, not before. They have much poorer boost response than a properly sized turbo. Here is the boost curve of a lysholm vs a centrifugal SC.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[ericbev]

The performance benefits from twin-charging do not outweigh the incredible costs of not only the individual parts themselves and the mounds of custom fabrication, but also the engineering required to make everything operate cohesively.

Unless your pockets are very deep and you have alot of patience, I wouldnt consider it. It is definitley not "practical" by most peoples standards.

 

[thekellbeast]

There are a ton of ideas out there already for reducing lag.

Strokers
Ball bearing turbo's
Nitrous
DSMLink/ ECU chip with stutterbox/antilag

Why reinvent the wheel?

 

[TT_NS]

Alright guys I found a diagram from a guy who has a twincharged setup on a Corola AE86 and i learned some things from it so here is my next diagram. in this set up the air goes threw the superchargerand builds boost then pushed threw the slow spooling turbo (might help it spool. Do you think?) and so on and so forth. Then as the turbo begins to make more boost then the supercharger it has another line to get air from so there is less restriction. and it is a one way valve so you wont half to worry about boost leak( hopfully) I think by far this is the best design. Not to technical fairly easy to work lot less parts to break What do you guys think. Originaly i said Vortech SC because it seemed to fit better then the others. But im looking into the Roots SC. I dont no much about the lysholm SC but since you brought that up ima take a look at it. THanks.

 

[TT_NS]

There are a ton of ideas out there already for reducing lag.

Strokers
Ball bearing turbo's
Nitrous
DSMLink/ ECU chip with stutterbox/antilag

Why reinvent the wheel?

you cant expect to make faster cars without trying new things. If we all keep doing the same thing we will never get any better. I dont want to make a car that every one els already made. thats kinda boring you know

 

[TT_NS]

I looked into that lysholm supercharger. It seems real good. I couldent actualy find any one selling it though. Trying to get a price for the SC its self.

 

[missouri_dsm]

you cant expect to make faster cars without trying new things. If we all keep doing the same thing we will never get any better. I dont want to make a car that every one els already made. thats kinda boring you know

We are making faster cars doing the same thing look at Brent Rau and John shepherd. They get faster every time you see them. I dont think having a single turbo is holding anybody back from getting faster. If you just want to be different, then you are on the right track but unless you are running atleast single digits then I wouldnt worry about trying new things that are different to get faster, atleast not that extreme. I'm not bashing your idea at all, I think it is a cool concept, it's just the comment you made in that specific post that I dont agree with. Anyway good luck on your setup, I would love to see pics if you ever get it done.

 

[TT_NS]

aight coo