Supercharger/turbo setup....

[TT_NS]

all right guys i got an interesting setup. i drew up two diagrams for the 1g dsm with a supercharger and a turbo. one is more basic then the other. on the first set up i have the turbo connected before the supercharger. The reason for this is that it is a simpler set up. You would not half to worry about "back wash" if you would. The idea behind this set up is that the supercharger would simply suck air threw the same intake as the turbo. giving the engine boost while the turbo is taking its time spooling up. then when the turbo spools up it will increase boost. Although i find this a really crapy set up . There would be so much air friction going on in this. First from the turbo being in the way of the supercharger and visa versa. So i thought id try something a little more interesting. Then i came up with the second diagram. In this one the supercharger has its own intake which will reduce friction. But this is where i run into a problem. When the boost being created transfers from the supercharger to the turbo i need to release all pressure being created by the supercharger so i can close off that entire area with a valve that will prevent the turbos pressure from being pushed back out the supercharger. Make since? Dose any one know of a anything that works like a BOV but releases under certain pressure? Any way the pressure from the turbo will shut the valve to the supercharger. hope you can picture how that would work. I was also thinking for either application i could fabricate a pulley or use the one off the A/C on the car so the Supercharger could be turned off and on by a clutch just like the A/C. Although i wouldn't have any idea how i could control the relay from turneing off and on without me hitting a button. that might be to complex for me. I noticed if you take out the A/C you have plenty of space for a Vortech supercharger in that area. That is my plan. Its nice to come up with something a little different then what other people are doing. Just another way to get the power so please don't bash the idea. But let me know some ideas you guys come up with. This would take allot of fabrication but im up for the work.

 

[Stapl3]

There's a twin charged evo.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=127361&page=1&pp=15&highlight=turbo+supercharger

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180605&highlight=supercharger+twin

 

[TT_NS]

since the supercharger is pushing pressure threw the turbo, will that have any negative effects on the turbo or performance? or any positive effects?

 

[thekellbeast]

I was kind of feeling in a good mood, so here's a pic of how they did it on the Lancia Delta S4

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Oh yeah, the S4 put out around 450bph.

Turbo - intercooler - supercharger - intercooler - engine.

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It's not too easily seen, but it looks like the supercharger has a bypass tube underneath it in the second pic.

The supercharger doesn't have its own intake. Rather, it pulls through the turbo until the turbo pushes enough boost. Then the supercharger gets bypassed. But I don't think the air from the supercharger gets blown to atmosphere after that. I think it still pushes through the second intercooler.

Last edit: They made 200 S4's for homoligation, by Group B rules. As in, 200 street cars.

http://www.thhe.dk/biler/Lancia_Delta_S4-Xray_1600.jpg

 

[GILZTSIAWD]

IF it was actually worth the time, money, and effort someone would have done it already.

 

[TT_NS]

IF it was actually worth the time, money, and effort someone would have done it already.

if we always thought that, we would never do any thing!

Hey I like that picture it realy helps. It looks like the last diagram i drew. I think ill be doing it like that just need a 3 inch one way valve .

 

[thekellbeast]

"Therefore Lancia spent a lot money with Abarth to develop a system combining both turbocharger and supercharger to get a perfect output. It employed twin intercoolers, one for the turbo and one for the supercharger. The supercharger worked at low speed. Once the turbo cut in, a bypass valve relieved the pressure from the supercharger so that energy efficiency was be lifted.

This system was not only complex, but also faced great difficulties during development. The biggest problem was the transition between supercharging and turbocharging, since a short zero-boost period existed. However, after further developement, this problem was eventually solved.

As a result, the 1.8-litre engine had an outstanding power of 250 hp and a healthy 214 lbft of torque, while the rally car had at least 470 hp and 333 lbft.

Like other Group B cars, only 200 units of road version were made to fulfill the minimum requirement for homologation.

In WRC, Delta S4 experienced a dramatic fate. It won its debut race, then continued to dominate the following races and was leading both the driver and manufacturer championship standings. Such excellent results amazed everyone, since it was a completely new car. In 1986, Tour de Corse (Corsica Rally), leading driver Henri Toivonen and navigator Sergio Cresto crashed in their S4 and both were killed. The team lost its momentum and eventually handed the title to Peugeot. This accident led to the rethink of Group B cars. Races went on but finally FIA annouced the termination of Group B, because it was too powerful and dangerous. Therefore, Delta S4 became the most outstanding rally car in history that did not won world title."

From http://www.autozine.org/strange_car/strange_60.htm

 

[brute]

Just buy a smalller turbo.

 

[GILZTSIAWD]

Turbo lag + hp soaked up by supercharger= laggiest car ever.

btw resize that image or it will be deleted.

 

[TT_NS]

trust me it wont have lag like you think. You say the supercharger will take away HP. It wont like you think. Its there to creat the bottem end torq. and with the use of a twin screw it will very nicly. the only hp soak their will be will probobly be any where from 1000 to 2000 RPM's and if you use 9:1 comp pistons that should help alot. I love those pistons i wouldent use any thing els

 

[GILZTSIAWD]

I prefer 9:1's too, thats what I run. They don't help out that much though. I think you will be surprised at the hp drag that supercharger has though. I have a lot of friends with charged v8's and have helped them work on them alot and researched them some myself and you would be surprised. Thats why you can't take a big supercharger and put it on a stock v8. If you look into superchargers you usually have to have X amount of hp before you can run that specific charger.

 

[thekellbeast]

It isn't an issue of using a supercharger that can push 600 hp, it's only using one that can push 300 hp or so. There are already plent of kits out there for imports, or tons of factory vehicles to scavenge one from.

I have to say I was skeptical of the project when I heard about it. Then I read up on the Lancia Delta S4, and saw the twincharged EVO project. Now I think it's a really cool idea that would make a fun-ass car to drive. Now, is it going to be an easy project? No. Are there easier ways out there to get the same wide powerband that he's looking for? Yes. Would I ever try this? No. Do I think this thread will result in a twincharged DSM getting built? No.

It would be amazing to see this happen. I don't think it will. But you're looking at the wrong problem. It's not the issue of the supercharger being too laggy. They're not, and it's been proven over and over again. I think it's an issue of plumbing, tuning, the mechanical ability to decide where everything goes, to weld up brackets for everything, and the money to actually see this project to the end.

"Turbocharger is generally regarded as the most efficient means of forced induction, but it requires higher rev (hence a lot of exhaust gas) to operate. The result is poor low-speed power and the presense of turbo lag. On the contrary, supercharger performs strongly and instantly right from idle, but it is rahter inefficient in high rpm. For a rally car, a flat torque curve over a wide range of rpm is always very crucial, since rally car has to brake to very slow in tight corners and then accelerate to near top speed in 10 seconds. Therefore Lancia spent a lot money with Abarth to develop a system combining both turbocharger and supercharger to get a perfect output"

Lancia did it. But they're a major auto company, and they had to get help from a supercharger manufacturer to get it to happen.

 

[tstkl]

to all the douches who are saying if it worked someone would have done it, I've seen someone with an EVO who twincharged his car. I forgot which forum it was on, but he had a t76 on his evo and he lives in colorado, so hes at a very high altitude and his turbo never spooled. He got a supercharger on it to spool things up a little quicker. It has been done, there is a purpose, and its not THAT expensive. Its probably as expensive as anyone who buys a turbo kit for their car. I bet it could be done for a cool 5-7 grand. Ill look for that thread.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=127361

what bitches....

 

[GILZTSIAWD]

to all the douches who are saying if it worked someone would have done it, I've seen someone with an EVO who twincharged his car. I forgot which forum it was on, but he had a t76 on his evo and he lives in colorado, so hes at a very high altitude and his turbo never spooled. He got a supercharger on it to spool things up a little quicker. It has been done, there is a purpose, and its not THAT expensive. Its probably as expensive as anyone who buys a turbo kit for their car. I bet it could be done for a cool 5-7 grand. Ill look for that thread.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=127361

what bitches....

Previous posts on this thread linked to the twincharged evo.

 

[No_Skillz]

Previous posts on this thread linked to the twincharged evo.

So then it's been done. What exactly are you still naysayng about?

 

[redboosted97]

the whole supercharging as well as turbo phase started back with Diesel trucks and the infamous 2 stroke detroit diesel. Since the motors were 2 stroke they lacked the necessay torque and truck would need to pull heavy loads so they started out with just supercharges and in the near years to come added on a turbo to help increase top end even more. These motors lasted as long as any other diesel on the market even with double the boost!. Honestly if you want boost off the line get yourself a ems with a built in 2 step and you can build just sitting still.

 

[95redgsx]

the superchager on the detroit diesel 8v92 and other 2 stroke engines is not a power adder it is just to help scavange exhaust gasses

 

[TT_NS]

Here are the flow maps for a eaton m90 supercharger. as price goes this is a nice supercharger to have. They normaly put it on the grand prix i guess but not to sure. any how you can see how much hp it takes to run it at every RPM. at max it uses about 40 hp which im not realy liken. so id like to figure a way to put a clutch on it like the A/C has so it can be turned off around 4.5K Engine RPM's so its not sucken all the HP away while the turbo is runnen. What you guys think?

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[95redgsx]

some of the mercedes kompresor's and toyota previa's use a supercharger with a clutch . you could probably pick one up for pretty cheap to , just a thought

 

[TT_NS]

some of the mercedes kompresor's and toyota previa's use a supercharger with a clutch . you could probably pick one up for pretty cheap to , just a thought

oh realy? hm... is there a way to make the clutch turn on at a specific RPM though? I might half to have some one make an electrical part to adjust the clutches timing.

 

[Superbeast406]

MSD and a number of other companys make RPM activated switches, usually go along with an ignition box or something like that. I'm also pretty sure the AEM EMS can do that.
If a centrifugal supercharger is essentually the compressor half of a turbo, just belt driven, maybe there's a way to drive the turbo with a belt and clutch till the exhaust gas can take over, like a one way slip clutch maybe. This seems complicated right off the bat, but it would eliminate a lot of piping and extra weight of a seperate supercharger. Just a thought.

 

[TT_NS]

i forgot about those ill defenetly be useing one of them

 

[tsibryan]

Why not activate by manifold pressure? Just because you're at XXXXrpm doesn't mean your turbo is spooled. If you're pushing like 10psi out of the supercharger, make the bypass kick in at 12psi or so. In my opinion, that would be a more transparent way to do it. The supercharger nevers kick off if the turbo isn't making boost.

With an RPM activated switch, if you're over the set rpm but you don't have the throttle open much, you have a possibility of having that second or split-second it takes to spool the turbo since the supercharger is off.

Just my two cents

 

[TT_NS]

Why not activate by manifold pressure? Just because you're at XXXXrpm doesn't mean your turbo is spooled. If you're pushing like 10psi out of the supercharger, make the bypass kick in at 12psi or so. In my opinion, that would be a more transparent way to do it. The supercharger nevers kick off if the turbo isn't making boost.

With an RPM activated switch, if you're over the set rpm but you don't have the throttle open much, you have a possibility of having that second or split-second it takes to spool the turbo since the supercharger is off.

Just my two cents

yea id rather do it that way but you know of any type of switches that work that way?

 

[TT_NS]

some of the mercedes kompresor's and toyota previa's use a supercharger with a clutch . you could probably pick one up for pretty cheap to , just a thought

the previa supercharger is way to small . i need something around the size of a m45 and up perferable the m90 (eaton). i loved the m112 off the Lightning but i think that might take up to much power from my engine. I found an eaton of a mercedes on Ebay it has a clutch on it but i cant tell what kind of SC it is.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/mercedes-111-engine-supercharger-kompressor_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33741QQitemZ8065070459QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

what do you guys think it is?

 

[TT_NS]

well never mind I found it. its a Mercedes Eaton M62 roots blower. it was used on the 98-03 Mercedes SLK230, C230 2.3L and utilises an electromagnetic clutch pulley. Im thinking this will only push max 10 psi but that could work good enough since all the big SC dont have the clutch. DOse any one know where i can find the compression map for it? Actualy do you think that pully could fit on another SC?