Supercharger/turbo setup....

[TT_NS]

all right guys i got an interesting setup. i drew up two diagrams for the 1g dsm with a supercharger and a turbo. one is more basic then the other. on the first set up i have the turbo connected before the supercharger. The reason for this is that it is a simpler set up. You would not half to worry about "back wash" if you would. The idea behind this set up is that the supercharger would simply suck air threw the same intake as the turbo. giving the engine boost while the turbo is taking its time spooling up. then when the turbo spools up it will increase boost. Although i find this a really crapy set up . There would be so much air friction going on in this. First from the turbo being in the way of the supercharger and visa versa. So i thought id try something a little more interesting. Then i came up with the second diagram. In this one the supercharger has its own intake which will reduce friction. But this is where i run into a problem. When the boost being created transfers from the supercharger to the turbo i need to release all pressure being created by the supercharger so i can close off that entire area with a valve that will prevent the turbos pressure from being pushed back out the supercharger. Make since? Dose any one know of a anything that works like a BOV but releases under certain pressure? Any way the pressure from the turbo will shut the valve to the supercharger. hope you can picture how that would work. I was also thinking for either application i could fabricate a pulley or use the one off the A/C on the car so the Supercharger could be turned off and on by a clutch just like the A/C. Although i wouldn't have any idea how i could control the relay from turneing off and on without me hitting a button. that might be to complex for me. I noticed if you take out the A/C you have plenty of space for a Vortech supercharger in that area. That is my plan. Its nice to come up with something a little different then what other people are doing. Just another way to get the power so please don't bash the idea. But let me know some ideas you guys come up with. This would take allot of fabrication but im up for the work.

 

[nube90]

Video or ban.

Thats amazing lets see a video of this beast!

 

[sherloc123]

thats an amazing set up and fab work. Congratulations for pulling it off.

 

[ILLiCliPSE]

there is ( i believe ) an sti thats twin turbo and supercharged. but only puts out like high 300hp.

i wonder what numbers this is putting down.

 

[totaleclipse_05]

I remember seeing that STi, but it makes upwards of 600 horsepower I think.

 

[JayRolla]

Ive seen a turbo/supercharged camry v6 motor stuffed in a MR2 non turbo body. Made over 500whp and full boost by 2000rpm

 

[IHeartMyHonda]

they also make turbo kits for ss cobalts, to be used with the factory supercharger.

 

[kronus]

Goodness. More information, photos, and vids!!!

 

[RayPeters]

Ok everyone, after much delay here are two links. This one is hood open idling in the Lowe's parking lot while I was trying to figure out what was holding my pypass door open. Engine compartment video

This one is holding the camera in the car, not much really useful here, the logger might be interesting to a few, the rise time of the airflow log is nice .
Inside Car

I hope to get to the dyno maybe this week, I have some more ecu code to edit, some changes to the bypass door code (heat soak under cruise conditions).

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

What did you do with the timing advance? Does it have to be that low to prevent knock?

Nice vids though. I liked being able to watch the logger in real time. I never even pay that close attention to my own. Good stuff!

 

[DSMJim]

Thats pretty cool.

 

[DSMJim]

Awesome... I put the word in to have you bumped to regular member status right away. You shouldn't bee in the new member forum...

 

[dnhieu]

seems like a waste of time and money to me. BUT WOOHOOO for being diffrent....

 

[slipstream808]

Mad props, and I DO hate to be repetative, but what is that orange thing on the front of the head above the exhaust manifold. I should say that I know that its for cooling something, but what?

 

[RayPeters]

Mad props, and I DO hate to be repetative, but what is that orange thing on the front of the head above the exhaust manifold. I should say that I know that its for cooling something, but what?

Sorry I missed your question before, it is the power steering cooler. Solid copper boiler tube. It isn't the best location, but I have had no issues with heat soak, the cooling fans blow on it when things hot, I had it out front but there is so little left of the bumper there is nothing to hang it on. I may move it one day, its a little cramped in the engine bay these days.

 

[JayRolla]

Yea how the heck did you get the timing so low. Do you have the base timing retarded a whole lot. Those timing numbers look a little dangerously low for stock internals.

 

[delta448]

I'm perplexed how the supercharger handles the air compressed by the turbo.

What's the copper-finned tube gathering heat from the exhaust manifold for?

I may be wrong but I believe the s/c works solely off of a pressure ratio based on the speed of the drive gearing. -Like a certain size drive wheel equals a certain pressure ratio for the increase. Put in 14.7psi of atmospheric and get, for example, 24.7 absolute -while putting in 24.7psi absolute (+10psi already boosted air from the turbo) gets you like 41psi absolute, or near 27psi of gauge pressure.

And I don't know, but I'm guessing the copper finned tube is not a heat collector but maybe a rudimentary oil cooler that couldn't be positioned very much better because of the setup. -Or maybe it is a heat collector and it's part of the meth/water injection system and is meant to better atomize the injection. -?

 

[RayPeters]

Thanks for answering all my questions in the way you did Ray. Normally ppl tend to only remember the last sentence and dont thoroughly answer the whole post.
Your car is amazing, I am also curious who the supercharge handles the turbo charged air, and would like to see in action videos of it and the TT 3kgt talon.
How does the car feel in comparison to before getting the supercharger on there?
Would you say your twin charger talon is faster than your TT 3kgt Talon?
Hows the power band/ pull of the TT 3kgt one feel like? Real torquey Id imagen.

The v6 car is heavier and faster on the top end no questions asked, but the lag gets old really quick, nothing happens till 3500 plus and the real hit is 4k. It goes well, but honestly it isn't as interesting as a good 4g64 except for the "how'd you get that in there" stuff.

The twincharger donesn't so much hit as just pushes hard anytime the throttle is opened. If you get a chance look at the video of the data logger pull. you'll notice no step in the airflow curve, it is just a straight line. It makes mad torque and feels a little lacking in the upper rpm because it gets the boost pressure so early and then just maintains that all the way to 6.5k when I cut the ignition NOT the fuel. Hat to make some changes in the code there, always hated the fuel cut rev limiter idea.

Before the supercharger the car felt like any 18g car, nothing...nothing....wham holy crap.... shift. Repeat. I ran the car like that at the Prescott forest Rally as the Zero car, which is the first fast car on the stages, but NOT in the competition. It was hard to drive smooth because the lag wouldn't allow it to spin out of the corners as it should. So I'd have slide in, wait, drag race to the next corner, repeat, or I had to shift so much to keep it between 3.5 and 6.5 that I felt I would boil the cluth fluid .

The tests so far show the on boost performance before and after the supercharger in the 3.5k and up range to be very much the same, but I've just extended the useable range down to 2k. It will build boost below that, but the vibration from lugging the engine like that isn't good for anything in the drivetrain.

 

[RayPeters]

Yea how the heck did you get the timing so low. Do you have the base timing retarded a whole lot. Those timing numbers look a little dangerously low for stock internals.

Edited the timing map. I use Christians dissassembled code to build from, and there are extensive mods in the code, the ignition map has recieved several edits recently. The base timine is still 5 deg btdc, the methanol helps keeps the fuel burning instead of blowing holes in everything.

Current direction seems to be to add a timing mod value that looks at the status of my supercharger bypass valve and pull timing if I need it.

Another interesting note, is I've altered the way the knock code works, from 1-12 I ADD fuel, then if it is still knocking, I keep the added fuel and pull timing. It haas proven very effective even when I was only using the turbo alone. Hope this helps.

 

[Allboost429]

Thats awsome!

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

Very creative. You really deserve credit for inovative thinking!

 

[this_tsi_8urV8]

Sounds great and mad props to you, your knowledge, and expertise. I do not know much about tuning, hardly anything at all, but I do know its a lot of work and hard. Keep up with the good work!

 

[JayRolla]

Ok this may sound a little dumb but my mechanic is against running methonal injection because he has seen it puddle up inside the intake manifold and cause it to "burp" as he stated it like nitrous can. He said he would rather have nitrous. Wouldnt this eliminate that problem since the intake mani is a supercharger??

 

[stockfornow]

Good job of making it come true. I really had the same idea, but didn't really know much about tuning, now that I'm on the way to finish my engine, and start tuning, you have had created this already. Great job, and thanks for doing it. That know I now, what I was planning, would have worked!

 

[RayPeters]

Ok this may sound a little dumb but my mechanic is against running methonal injection because he has seen it puddle up inside the intake manifold and cause it to "burp" as he stated it like nitrous can. He said he would rather have nitrous. Wouldnt this eliminate that problem since the intake mani is a supercharger??

There is still a valley under the supercharger, where fuel/methanol can puddle, but the chances of that are slim at best. The methanol is delivered with precision from the ECU, not just a button or switch.

Also of note, methanol is a fuel, nitrous is an oxidizer, completely different purposes. The methanol cools from eveporation, plus adds much needed fuel and detonation control. The nitrous would add additional oxygen, something I have plenty of, it cools from expansion, and increases the chance of detonation in my experience.

Just some thoughts,

 

[RayPeters]

Good job of making it come true. I really had the same idea, but didn't really know much about tuning, now that I'm on the way to finish my engine, and start tuning, you have had created this already. Great job, and thanks for doing it. That know I now, what I was planning, would have worked!

The good news, it works so well I'll make more...
The bad news, even making many of the parts here, it is still not a "bolt on mod" and the tuning is for sure in the "advanced" category.

Not for the faint of heart, Boost pressures of 50psi plus are very possible if the boost managment takes a crap, I can only think of a few people that have engines that might survive that.