stupid lean under any throttle/load log inside

[mchustle]

Ok here goes im am about ready to burn this car to the ground. For some reason if I drive my car as soon as I approach 0 on my boost gauge it feels like I hit a brick wall and my wb reads totally lean. This will happen at all times regardless of how much throttle I actually give. I seems to me like a fuel issue but I cant find anything wrong. It has 6an from tank to rail and an aeromotive afpr. I have tried the following
I removed my wally 255 and replaced with my old factory pump-no change
I replaced my ebay afpr with an aeromotive-no change
I checked all my connections on my fuel line and couldn't find any leaks
removed my COP and replaced with my old factory coil and wires-ni change

the only thing I could find to do that helped was changing my injector scaling, I think once they were scaled around where I think 900cc would be I could actually build a little boost with an afr of around 13. Keep in mind I have 1200cc PTEs does this sound like it could be a problem with an injector, that is the one thing stock I don't have left to try. Please help a log is included with the injectors scaled to around 1150 if I remember correctly.

I also forgot to meantion I also change the sock on the fuel pump and the filter in the fuelab filter.

 

[Calan]

Have you actually measured the flow of your pump?

*****

For one thing, your IAT isn't working properly...unless your intake really is seeing a constant 125* plus.

I would suggest that you take a break for a bit, clear your head, and go over everything thoroughly, starting at the beginning.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/ecm...efore-you-ask-ecmlink-dsmlink-log-advice.html

 

[mchustle]

Have you actually measured the flow of your pump?

No I haven't I don't really have a fuel psi gauge other than on my regulator. I figured switching out the pumps would kinda rule out the pump. I also rewired the pump while I was at it.

Do you think if I activated the pump and used the regulator to bump the pressure up could kinda simulate it?

I'll look into the iat the car had been running off and on for around 2 hours while I was messing with it.

 

[Calan]

You don't need anything more than a five gallon bucket, a length of fuel hose to reach the bucket, and a friend to help turn the pump on/off in Link.

Disconnect the return hose after the AFPR, and run it into the bucket. While being safe (have someone keep their finger on the pump kill button!), turn the pump on and time how long it takes to flow 2 or 3 gallons of fuel...or 5 to 6 liters if you want to avoid one math step. . It also helps to have a third person that can measure the voltage at the pump while it's running.

Once you have that info, you can do some simple math to get the flow in liters per hour, and look at a flow chart for your pump to verify it is flowing what it should at your measured voltage and pressure. If the flow is close, you've pretty much eliminated everything in the fuel path (not counting the injectors of course), at least under non-boost conditions....which is where you are seeing the problem.

 

[mchustle]

You don't need anything more than a five gallon bucket, a length of fuel hose to reach the bucket, and a friend to help turn the pump on/off in Link.

Disconnect the return hose after the AFPR, and run it into the bucket. While being safe (have someone keep their finger on the pump kill button!), turn the pump on and time how long it takes to flow 2 or 3 gallons of fuel. It also helps to have a third person that can measure the voltage at the pump while it's running.

Once you have that info, you can do some simple math to get the flow in liters per hour, and look at a flow chart for your pump to verify it is flowing what it should at that voltage. If the flow is close, you've pretty much eliminated everything in the fuel path, at least under non-boost conditions....which is where you are seeing the problem.

Ok I'll go try to get some line tomorrow and give it a try. Everytime I think I'm close to driving my car I find I'm not.

Does anything besides a fuel issue make any since? Could this be a spark issue somehow? The only thing spark related I could think might be a problem is the ptu?

 

[Calan]

Does anything besides a fuel issue make any since? Could this be a spark issue somehow? The only thing spark related I could think might be a problem is the ptu?

Looks to me like you are starved for fuel for some reason.

The IAT will be hot when the car is just idling, but it should drop while cruising around. Upon closer inspection, you were only traveling 30-40mph and for less than a minute in that log, so that IAT is probably within reason during hot weather.

Have you got a factory O2 sensor you can hook back up in the factory position, and try to get FT's dialed in with that? Since you are simulating NB with your WB, both open and closed loop will be hosed if your WB isn't reading correctly. Using a factory O2 would eliminate the WB from the equation, and should let you get fuel trims in line if the WB is somehow fubared.

 

[mchustle]

Looks to me like you are starved for fuel for some reason. See my edit up there ^ about the IAT sensor.

Ok I'm going to check for a leak again also it just makes the most since to me, especially considering it is pretty much instantly bleeding off fuel pressure after I turn the car off.

 

[Calan]

I ninja edited the IAT comment again. See post #6.

Ok I'm going to check for a leak again also it just makes the most since to me, especially considering it is pretty much instantly bleeding off fuel pressure after I turn the car off.

Meh. I wouldn't put too much weight on whether or not the AFPR holds pressure once the car is shut off. It may affect starting, but if it holds and regulates pressure properly with the pump running, and the pump is flowing what it should...I wouldn't sweat it. If it's actually leaking, that would show up in a pressurized flow test.

I don't think I've ever had a combination of pumps and AFPR that didn't bleed off pressure almost immediately when the pump was turned off.

 

[mchustle]

I ninja edited the IAT comment again. See post #6.

Hopefully you don't edit this one before I finish typing . I typed my big iat spill then saw your edit and edited mine out .

I don't have a factory o2 anywhere but I was thinking the same thing so I replaced the sensor with a brand new one and it read the exact same.


Edit for your edit . Ok I've just heard of people having similar issues where they won't have a leak at idle but once they drive the extra pressure makes it leak.

 

[Calan]

While doing the flow test, you can inject air pressure into the AFPR from an air compressor, to simulate what happens when under boost. If you inject 10psi for example (10psi of boost), you should see fuel pressure go up by 10 psi...a one-to-one rate. You'll also see flow drop off a little, since flow is inversely proportional to pressure.

Have you checked your injectors to see if one or more is stuck shut? Have you tried a different set of injectors just for giggles?

 

[mchustle]

I ninja edited the IAT comment again. See post #6.



Meh. I wouldn't put too much weight on whether or not the AFPR holds pressure once the car is shut off. It may affect starting, but if it holds and regulates pressure properly with the pump running, and the pump is flowing what it should...I wouldn't sweat it. If it's actually leaking, that would show up in a pressurized flow test.

I don't think I've ever had a combination of pumps and AFPR that didn't bleed off pressure almost immediately when the pump was turned off.

While doing the flow test, you can inject air pressure into the AFPR from an air compressor, to simulate what happens when under boost. If you inject 10psi for example (10psi of boost), you should see fuel pressure go up by 10 psi...a one-to-one rate. You'll also see flow drop off a little, since flow is inversely proportional to pressure.

Have you checked your injectors to see if one or more is stuck shut? Have you tried a different set of injectors just for giggles?

No I haven't tried different injectors because I don't have any different injectors, and I'm not sure that I can build something to test them like I saw on the jafro youtube vid. Is there an easy way to check for a stuck injector?

 

[Calan]

Get the car to idle at a safe AFR, and then switch off each injector one at a time on the Misc tab in Link. If the injector is working, you'll definitely notice it when you switch it off. If you switch one off and there is no change, then that injector isn't working.

If you find one that appears to not be working, swap it with one in another cylinder to verify the problem moves with the injector. If it does, it's the injector; if it stays with the same cylinder, it's in the ECU, resistor pack, or harness.

My guess is the injectors are working, although they may not be flowing what they should. If one is stuck completely shut, the idle would be pretty rough.

 

[Calan]

Have you tried cranking the global toward 0 by some silly amount (like -35% or something), to see if the car goes pig rich?

BTW - I don't think your TPS is calibrated.

 

[mchustle]

Have you tried cranking the global toward 0 by some silly amount (like -35% or something), to see if the car goes pig rich?

Yea when I turn the injectors off one by one the car idles down and runs on 3 cylinders and I can tell. The idle isn't that rough a little bit but I'm marking that off for the cams I put in on the new motor.

I cranked global down to around %40 and it would idle rich as expected and when I drove it it would be around 13 and Max out the wb at rich during wot. They are pte so expect them not to flow the 1200 but I would expect atleast 1050 .

Oh and for your ninja edit the tps I just used the tool in link so I'm not sure ill check into it though.

 

[Calan]

I cranked global down to around %40 and it would idle rich as expected and when I drove it it would be around 13 and Max out the wb at rich during wot.

That means that things are working as they should be...you just haven't found the actual flow of your fuel system yet.

An actual flow of 1050cc (or less) out of those injectors is completely possible. If you can get the global to a point that allows trims and VE to be dialed in (and the pump, filter, etc. all check out good), then it is what it is. Put global where it wants to be, tune the airflow, and get on down the road.

 

[mchustle]

That means that things are working as they should be...you just haven't found the actual flow of your fuel system yet.

An actual flow of 1050cc (or less) out of those injectors is completely possible. If you can get the global to a point that allows trims and VE to be dialed in (and the pump, filter, etc. all check out good), then it is what it is. Put global where it wants to be, tune the airflow, and get on down the road.

Ok so I guess the plan is tomorrow ill check it over once more for leaks and check the pump flow.

Then I should just set global to a random size that's smaller, without being unthinkably rich?

 

[Calan]

Ok so I guess the plan is tomorrow ill check it over once more for leaks and check the pump flow.

Sounds good. Eliminate everything you can, as thoroughly as you can.

I would also zero the Link TPS correction, and set the TPS mechanically at the TB. Then run the Link tool again for any minor corrections. It shouldn't need more than 5-7 percentage points.

Then I should just set global to a random size that's smaller, without being unthinkably rich?

I would concentrate on idle first... gradually adjust the VE values and global until the trims come in line and the WB is around 14.7:1. Idle VE cells should be somewhere around 45 to 55; See if you can get good idle AFRs with something in that range while tweaking global a little at a time. Once you do that, do some low-load cruising and see if that new global value will work with reasonable VE values in the cruise cells. Just keep a close eye on your AFR, coolant temp, etc.

Of course the best bet would be to have someone actually flow test your injectors, or find a loaner set you could try out.

BTW - What fuel and base fuel pressure are you running? And this is a 2.0l right?

 

[mchustle]

Sounds good. Eliminate everything you can, as thoroughly as you can.

I would also zero the Link TPS correction, and set the TPS mechanically at the TB. Then run the Link tool again for any minor corrections. It shouldn't need more than 5-7 percentage points.



I would concentrate on idle first... gradually adjust the VE values and global until the trims come in line and the WB is around 14.7:1. Idle VE cells should be somewhere around 45 to 55; See if you can get good idle AFRs with something in that range while tweaking global a little at a time. Once you do that, do some low-load cruising and see if that new global value will work with reasonable VE values in the cruise cells. Just keep a close eye on your AFR, coolant temp, etc.

Of course the best bet would be to have someone actually flow test your injectors, or find a loaner set you could try out.

BTW - What fuel and base fuel pressure are you running? And this is a 2.0l right?

Ok I will adjust the tps by hand and get it setup. I had it setup then switched to a 1g tb.
I'll see if there happens to be somewhere around me that can flow test them I doubt it but I know of a diesel shop that messes with injectors cleaning wise.

For fuel I'm running 93oct at ~43psi, a little tricky to get exact with the gauge I have , and it is a 2.0. I sold my Evo 560s to a dude I know for his Honda so I'll see if he still has them and will let me borrow them.

And thanks for all your help, hopefully your around when I get this figured out and get to tuning. I was starting to get it on mad then decided I wanted ds and it is a whole other beast .

 

[Calan]

You may also want to reset your VE table to something more "normal" to begin with. It should look something like this: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/409538-ve-dip.html#post152666562. You may be able to PM gofer and bribe him to give you a good one to start with....but I didn't say that.

 

[mchustle]

You may also want to reset your VE table to something more "normal" to begin with. It should look something like this: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/409538-ve-dip.html#post152666562. You may be able to PM gofer and bribe him to give you a good one to start with....but I didn't say that.

Ok I'll see what he says, name dropping May occur . This is when I wish I could tag people and them get a notification like on face book . Thanks again I'll hopefully have good news tomorrow :/.

I hate when you get to the point of your car being so modified you can't take it to a shop . Guess it helps me learn though and this dsm has taught me so much from doing everything to it myself . Well myself and this forum that is more like my bible .

 

[Calan]

Once you get a little more experience with it and have rebuilt it a few times, you'll wonder why you ever took it to a shop in the first place.

EDIT:

Ehhh hem. Check out the VE table in the log in this post: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/409538-ve-dip.html#post152666625

 

[mchustle]

Once you get a little more experience with it and have rebuilt it a few times, you'll wonder why you ever took it to a shop in the first place.

Yea this rebuild I did everything except the rotating assembly, could be the reason I am having so many problems . Also I didn't name drop to gofer but I may have also gave him a link to the thread, but maybe we will get lucky and he won't read all the posts .

Once you get a little more experience with it and have rebuilt it a few times, you'll wonder why you ever took it to a shop in the first place.

EDIT:

Ehhh hem. Check out the VE table in the log in this post: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/409538-ve-dip.html#post152666625

Yea this rebuild I did everything except the rotating assembly, could be the reason I am having so many problems . Also I didn't name drop to gofer but I may have also gave him a link to the thread, but maybe we will get lucky and he won't read all the posts .

Edit reply: could you specify which one I looked and there is a few posted .

 

[Calan]

Click that link: it takes you to post #14 where the log with the good VE table is.

 

[mchustle]

Yea I was on my phone so it just shot to top of the page. I used my laptop and it took me to the post I've been reading through it .
So if I pop that map in should I focus on using the global to get the afr as close to 14.7 as possible then use the ve to get the airflow around .25? Which from reading about that table should take a whole lot.

 

[gofer]

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Here ya go.