General knock under any load

[ucancallmedebo]

I recently purchased a modded 1992 Eclipse GSX with 6 bolt. It has b16/550/SAFC, ext temp sensor, etc. Anyway, under any load which produces any boost I get a lot of knock sometimes 43.

I have replaced knock sensor, O2 sensor, thermostat. No boost leaks. Fuel filter is new, supposed so have 255 and I can hear whine from it. No unusual noises from under hood. My O2's are really low but it runs ok under light throttle. The O2 will not go higher than 0.82v anytime.

The car has a lot of crazy wiring with no emissions or EGR, still has PCV connected, could this cause prob? There's 5k on rebuild and 160 psi compression across all. I checked plugs not melted but have very little white spots looks fairly normal, maybe rich looking. Oh, and 2g FAF with 550cc injectors. Timing checked and set timing to 5 deg, 8 to 10 at idle without grounding.

Everything looks normal except low O2 and huge knock counts.

SAFC LO set at +8 1k + 2k 4at3 2 across, high +5 across, should be rich, these is with 10lbs boost, sounds like it is running rich when I make hi +15 across and bogs.

Could this be bad fuel pump or fuel pressure regulator? It is supposed to raise fuel press with boost, if it did not would I knock real easy.

Would the 2G 550 set up cause super high knock inducing timing. It pulls hard on light throttle so it is getting a good amount of fuel. Is the pump is weak but i get know in neutral if i floor it and take it to 5k let off, 43 count. This is basically no load on the motor right?

I would think if the O2's are correct, my spark plugs would be melted by now with the high knock but they are not.

here are some logs:
This is in neutral just floor it 4 a second

rpm inlp knck o2 tps tima
718 2.55 0 .03 10.5 10
812 5.63 0 .29 84.7 9
2125 5.63 1 .76 99.6 17
3562 6.14 24 .42 99.6 28
4968 2.30 32 .80 10.5 23
4343 1.53 6 .78 10.5 29


Third gear pull

rpm inlp knck o2 tps tima
3500 2.55 0 .21 25 39
3531 4.35 0 .0 33.5 39
3562 5.63 4 .03 42.1 33
3625 6.39 3 .76 42.5 29
3718 7.67 3 .80 42.5 28
3812 8.70 2 .82 42.5 26
3906 10.75 2 .83 43.3 24
4060 12.79 21 .83 43.7 19
4156 13.82 26 .83 43.7 12
4406 17.6 43 .83 50.3 7
4593 18.94 42 .82 98.4 1
4625 19.19 43 .83 98.4 1
4781 19.45 42 .83 87.5 1
4843 2.04 41 0.87 17.9 2 <<<<
4437 2.55 11 .83 10.9 31
3343 1.79 0 .82 10.9 39

Too much timing not enough fuel? <<<<<I didn't notice this 0.87 so if the sensor is reading this high maybe I am running real lean and the the timing is not helping either. But the spark plugs don't look bad and if I was this lean I would think they would?

Could it have a 90 computer and just read lower o2? I disconnected the SAFC O2 mod privously this made my O2/s go from 0.81 to 0 .83, I was hoping for more. I also got web cams but this should not matter.

I am tired of replacing everything to fix this prob and my 12 sec car runs like a dog.

Should I make my base lower, higher because of the cams?

I have researched this a lot and really thought it was some kind of phantom knock but the 0.82 cant be good with a new 02.

Any suggestion would be great. I personally think it might be fuel pump or the regulator. But like I said, I would think running this lean would have physical damage to something and plugs compression look ok.

All my pulls at 100 throttle look simular to the second log. I wont stay in it to long as my EGT are 1650+ because of pulled timing so maybe this is what is saving me so far.

Thanks in advance, and sorry for the long post.

 

[boostmaster]

Having same exact probs w/same mods except i have a 1g MAF and running 18lbs boost...my high throttle settings are 15+ at 6k and 7k and 8+ at 5k w/lower honeycombs out... still getting in a max of 19 counts of knock? any help DSM wisemen?

Blake

 

[ucancallmedebo]

i pretty much get the same kind of kock at 18lbs, 15 ,10 . the 2g mass setup the computer thinks it is running 20%leaner than it is is it runs super advanced timeing. next step i guess is to get a apfr and guage. or wideband.but this is big bucks right know.also does any knock in free rev in neutral have to be phantom or does this put enough load with WOT to cause knock. got that 30+counts by 5K with maybee 1 psi and blow off sounding apon release of the throttle.

 

[sweet97]

.84 volts is way lean. have you tried addig fuel? A .90 would be better or even higher. mark

 

[ucancallmedebo]

02 will not go higher than .83 or so with 15+ on high settings. fuel pump? could a bad regulator affect fuel this much? is the factory reg a rising rate type? if my o2's dont increase with my increse of HI settings does this mean weak pump. it sounds like it is running rich. also incresing HI makes computer see more air therfore lowering timing right. is there anyway to check the pumps output under load, could factory pressure regulator be bleeding off all pressure..car has 170.000 + miles but motor is new. might not even be the factory 6 bolt 4 the car though.

 

[sweet97]

The stock regulator is a 1:1 increase. have you tried running ricer? Mre air will mean less timing. mark

 

[Evil1gDsm]

what's your base timing at?

 

[ucancallmedebo]

5 degs, was checked 2 days ago. was at 0 when ground out but i advanced it to factory spec. idles much better now. still knocks the same. it seem like computer has ultimite control on timing becuse under 15psi and high knock timing might be 0 or -2. could the low 02 be the result of a bad ground somewhere. i think I will order a fuel pressure guage,maybe an electric on so i can mount in the cabin.

 

[ucancallmedebo]

well i gotta get a guage so i will know if it is fuel problem. if the pressure checks ok then what about the low 02. 02's are the same at 18lbs boost or at 10. 550 are plenty for 10lbs with good pressure so it could be phantom knock. a factory pump should not knock at 10lbs.

 

[dsm10sec]

Read it wrong; when you said 18lbs, 15 ,10.. It was late and I was tired has hell.

 

[ucancallmedebo]

i ordered any autometer 1 1/2 inch pressure guage, i think it has a 1/8 fitting on it. will this screw into the little plug in the bung on top of the fuel filter. today or tomorrow i am going to check voltage at fuel pump and rewire as nessassary "should already be rewired,but maybe a bad ground." The pcv valve could be causing some P knock to i will also gut it and run to my catch can since it is still run to throttle body. Is my thinking correct that any leaks while under full boost 10+lbs would cause car to run richer. Air is metered but lost,forced out of the system somewhere..Less air same fuel richer. I think i might have multiple problems, and this is why it is so hard to diagnose.

 

[sweet97]

Remove the bolt from the top of the fuel filter. I believe it is much bigger than 1/8". Mine has a B&M gauge on it's top. You may take the bolt to a hardware store and assemble some adapters to get the autometer to work. Unless you have very low base pressure you are lean due to the injectors as was mentioned. Do you have an extra 02 to try or someone close who will let youtry theirs? mark

 

[dsm10sec]

Is it an electronic or mechanical gauge? Either way, you have to drill through the bolt and weld and MPT fitting on it. Unless you just want to drill it and tap it.

 

[ucancallmedebo]

it has a little pug on top of the bolt. pretty small hole though. i'll figure something out. just seemed like a wasted to buy a fpr to see what the pressure is. A lot of you guys dont need on e or have problems running 400+hp with stock or N/a regulator, and i have heard aftermarket fpr can vary pressures under temps. The guage is mechanical.

 

[ucancallmedebo]

well i just finished rewiring the fuel pump, looks like it had been done before but converted back to stock. with the cover off the pump is sounded like stock to. anyway 13 volt from factory and 14.5 rewired. I started it up and tested the factory wire to the relay. 10.5 volts! with the car running, then tested the new wire to the pump,14.5.,this has to be some of the problem. started her up,warmed it up. took it to 5500 slowly, no knock. floored it to 5500 in neutral, 30 counts. guess it did not fix the old problem. will take it out tommow and do a third gear run. going to buy a wineboro tonight on ebay to make sure it is a good pump also. will hopefully post log tommow to see if my 02's went up any. Also gutted pcv valve and capped manifold port just in case.

 

[ucancallmedebo]

here is a small log of neutral rev knock with WOT punch

RPM INJP KNCK 02 TPS TIMA
781 2.30 0 .66 10.5 11
750 1.53 0 .27 16.7 12
1250 6.39 2 .25 99.6 8
2500 5.88 2 .80 99.6 21
3781 6.65 24 .78 99.6 29
4500 3.07 30 .87 10.5 19
4031 1.53 9 .83 10.5 31
3531 1.27 0 .72 10.5 39

I notice timing jumps up with knock but i still got knock at 1250rpm. with 8 deg timing. 02 still look low but there was really no load on the motor but itself. i would like to think that I am getting some phantom knock but under light load,thottle less than 20% i dont get any knock regardless of RPM. still waiting on FP guage though.

 

[ucancallmedebo]

just took a test drive with the logger. looks as bad as ever. under throttle 02 are right at .83. this a little better than before,maybe rewire affected this. but is still vary low. fuel pump is running fine, tested on logger. did a couple of pulls in third, went heavy throttle in 5th at 60. knock know pegs 40+ under both of these conditions. by looking at th% i notice there is a delay between this and the knock "the turbo spool up" one any boost is generated the knock steadly increases to 40+ unless i go back into vaccum. The knock increases with load in relation to boost. so I feel more confident this might be a fueling prob. This was running 11psi in diffrent gears at diffrent speeds above 2000rpm with the same affect. When i install my FP guage,if it say 37.5 i'm gonna cry cause then i wont know what to do. i'm hopeing for 20 . Also the turbo boosts strong and fast but i have head of someone getting knock from a bad one, blades bent, ect. somehow the problem apears to be connected through boost. The car knocks more than it did but its a lot colder now and even more air with the same fuel is even worse. The only prob with this reasoning is the am getting 4to 6 knocks as low as 1600rmp under 35%+ throttle. is knock possable this low. Any insight would be great, thanks.

 

[sweet97]

just took a test drive with the logger. looks as bad as ever. under throttle 02 are right at .83. this a little better than before,maybe rewire affected this. but is still vary low. fuel pump is running fine, tested on logger. did a couple of pulls in third, went heavy throttle in 5th at 60. knock know pegs 40+ under both of these conditions. by looking at th% i notice there is a delay between this and the knock "the turbo spool up" one any boost is generated the knock steadly increases to 40+ unless i go back into vaccum. The knock increases with load in relation to boost. so I feel more confident this might be a fueling prob. This was running 11psi in diffrent gears at diffrent speeds above 2000rpm with the same affect. When i install my FP guage,if it say 37.5 i'm gonna cry cause then i wont know what to do. i'm hopeing for 20 . Also the turbo boosts strong and fast but i have head of someone getting knock from a bad one, blades bent, ect. somehow the problem apears to be connected through boost. The car knocks more than it did but its a lot colder now and even more air with the same fuel is even worse. The only prob with this reasoning is the am getting 4to 6 knocks as low as 1600rmp under 35%+ throttle. is knock possable this low. Any insight would be great, thanks.

Have you tried running richer? How about an AFPR or a set of 660's? mark

 

[ucancallmedebo]

have tried +20 across on afc which is way rich. runs like crap. still low 02. when i get my FP guage in if it is way low i will get AFPR or a working stock one. 550 should be more than enough for 11psi.

 

[sweet97]

Yeah at 11 psi the 550's should be more than enough! I have a working stock regulator and if you PM me I will send it to you without charge. Mark

 

[ucancallmedebo]

well, i got my gauge in mail today.took out plug in bolt of top of fuel filter, checked plug threads against fpg threads,same? had some fitting laying around and screwed both in same fitting,both fit the same. then i screwed it into the hole where the plug was, no adapters, tightened firm. started car , 37.5. that sucks. reved it up.gained pressure accordingly. when down to 35 or so apon release of throttle. pressure is good where is the knock comming from. any ideas, my 02's are stilll low but do some cars just run lower 02's. with a good air fuel mix. maybe a ground somewhere, is the anyway to check or to wire strait to the 02 to see if something is causeing lower reading. what do u guys suggest next..or does anyone have simmilar problem with a likely fix. computer, harmonic balencer,lifter "has 3rd gen", boost/exhaust leak, turbo"prob seems to be related to boost or moderate to high load" any help would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[sweet97]

Looking at your 3rd gear pull your timing is very high.
I use a MAF-Translator to tune my fuel and I will get high timing if I run the fuel lean. I am no pro at tuning but I figure we can help each other. The high timing and low 02's go together and that points to low fuel or too much unmetered air. Is the 2G mas stock/both honeycombs or at least the unmetered one in there. Also there is a screw on the unmetered side (that is usually covered with a soft silicone substance) that can be used to allow in unmetered air. Could the injectors need cleaning, professional cleaning? I can't tell by the inj pulse width.
I have Scanmaster from www.fullthrottlespeed.com that shows 02's voltage, knock, timing and a couple dozen other pieces of data as they are occuring. If you can afford it what a great tuning aid.
I get 20 counts of knock at WOT with minimal tuning so I have hope.
I have heard a new knock sensor can help but you may have gotten one.
Keep looking to get the timing back and the fuel up and check again for leaks. You should be able to set your base idle at zero or less and get a good idle with the afc. I have my base at 0-2*. Mark
PS: I would get the EGR back operating. I am getting mine back in operation. It will keep cylinder temps down for less chance of part throttle knock! It helps gas mileage and does not hurt performance.

 

[Joesmoke]

Im quite vocal on knock issues. Been through a lot.

1. Your low o2's could be a bad sensor. In fact, quite possibly considering how much fuel you added. Try another sensor

2. You were right to check your plugs. I have said this a thousand times. If you had real repeated detonation that bad, you would have melted something and your plugs would show it. If the engine is good, and fuel/air components are good, there is no mechanical reason to be getting HIGH knock counts.

Stop, take a breath and think about things. Why would an engine knock and why does your logger show yours knocking. Do you really have those problems? This kind of analysis will help you track down problems faster, and maybe reveal that its not real knock but false knock.

Most cars with knock sensors tend to produce false knock. All makes and models. Ours with high mileage, tired wiring and ECU's create greater windows for false knock.

You may have real knock caused by something, which of course needs to be fixed. Just dont chase your tail too long because it can make you crazy!

 

[sweet97]

Joe can you give some solid, actual causes of knock, both real and phantom? I must have read TUNE, TUNE, TUNE a hundred times without one bit of advice on how to tune. My situation if the originator of the post will please allow me: engine has 109k miles, it's a '93AWD.
Turbo is an AGP RS49 wth a 3" hardpipe leading to a filter OUTDSIDE the engine compartment where the original IC used to be. I have 660cc injectors from Buschur and use a MAF-Translator with the MAF in a blow thru position. Turbo back 2.5" mandrel exhaust, no cat.
Spearco FMIC model #2-221 which is a smaller IC though spearco rates it at 1080 CFM @ 1.5 PSI drop and 760 HP capable. Efficiency may not be the greatest due to it's 6" height though it has a high amount of cooling tubes, 56% more than my Dejon street FMIC had. guys have ran 10's and 11's with it. It is around 30*F here now in central, N.Y. Tuning has been minimal since I just got the car back together from the IC install which has 2.5" short route upper piping.
I took it out for a drive and boost had been set at 13-15 psi but has jumped to 18-20 psi, same setting on the MBC. I set my base timing at 2-3 degrees advanced though it does bounce around too much for my liking at idle. I do need to install new wires and plugs. Just not sure on wires though was thinking magnacores. Has NGK 7's in it now.
i have responded to the originator of this post a few times because i believe we can hlp each other though I have knock to a lesser degree. I have a wdeband and find that a 10:5 to 11:1 works best on 93. Suggestions? Should the knock sensor be replaced, no brainer? Thanks to you and the writer. Mark

 

[ucancallmedebo]

didn't think of looking at mass honeycones, i bought car with eveything installed. i think the screw on the mass is untampered. if not all the way in would run richer right. my old knock sensor was leaky, but the new mit part shows even more knock. i am going to make my timing 0-1 btdc make a run. a gutted or even ported mass would make it run really lean also. if the mass has been screwed with i will switch to GM mass with translator. also any leaks before the turbo "between mass and turbo/ mass and bov" would introduce unmetered air into the system causing a lean condition. My o2 is 100 miles old, and my old one acted the same so it was good to i'm sure. will get the wineboro 255 in a few day so fuel can't be the issue. also my downpipe was pushing against trans case because of evo housing i think so i heated with gas torch and bent slightly for a good fit. i dont have any of the egr stuff but this shouldent affect my knock much and it simpliflys my engine bay"more room to work on stuff". MY fuel pressure gauge shows good but under load while driving it might not be gaining adequate press, doubt this is the problem though. thanks for the info and i will get back to yall on if the mass is ok or i got any pre turbo leaks. will post a run on 0-1 timing to. anymore thoughts on this knock issue will be great 4 everyone,thanks.