Stock ECU Native Wideband Review

[twdorris]

In this case there is some very useful potential to using a wideband natively if we also change our on/off style switch to a dimmer but since neither approach replaces the light switch both are equal and provide EXACTLY the same results.

I like the analogy.

Switching to a "dimmer" control is definitely something someone outta look into. There may be some real benefit there. It's a closed loop control system with real feedback from a real sensor. It's on our "to do" list, but if someone else wants to play around with it first, I'd love to hear the results. The idea I had in mind was to basically run closed loop off the "open loop" tables. You would always be running in closed loop mode but targeting the A/F ratio specified in what is currently the "open loop" table. How cool would that be? As long as the ECU had a way to change the fuel mixture "update rate" based on how far off it was from the target, it really should work rather well.

Again, it's on the to-do list. It's just not going to get any time from us for a while.

Thomas Dorris

 

[PIMking]

so basically I am going to have to mount the wbo2 in a seperate spot and let the stock nbo2 do its job?

 

[twdorris]

so basically I am going to have to mount the wbo2 in a seperate spot and let the stock nbo2 do its job?

With your current ECU configuration setup, as I understand it, yes.

Thomas Dorris

 

[PIMking]

Is there a way that I can log the WBO2 into the dsmlink?

 

[twdorris]

Is there a way that I can log the WBO2 into the dsmlink?

Sure, but that's TOTALLY off topic in this thread. Please contact me offline or post on the ECMLink support forums. To get you started, read through this page.

installnewsensor [ECMTuning - wiki]

But please post follow up offline or in another thread.

Thomas Dorris

 

[the_mork]

Which feature are you referring to here? We certainly support native WBO2 simulation, if that's what you mean.

v3narrowbandsim [ECMTuning - wiki]

EDIT: FWIW, I've been running my car on this for the last 4 years or so and passing emissions each time they actually bother testing my car. The WBO2 is installed in the rear O2 bung.

Thomas Dorris
ECMTuning, Inc.

You can use this if I'm understanding everything correctly. It will take a little bit of work but honestly I'm not sure that it is worth putting a lot of effort into unless you plan need another ecu input.

 

[twdorris]

It will take a little bit of work but honestly I'm not sure that it is worth putting a lot of effort into unless you plan need another ecu input.

Generally I'd agree. The main reason is to free up an input on the 1G (which the 1G desperately needs). But you can also change the A/F ratio the ECU runs closed loop at too. You can't do that effectively with the narrowband sensor.

Honestly, I switched several years ago because my front O2 sensor died (yet again) and I got tired of buying new narrowband sensors.

Thomas Dorris

 

[toofast82]

I just read something in another thread about the using a spark plug fouler for the 2nd O2 on 2gs. This person read that a lot of VWs have been doing this with good success for not setting CEL. I wonder if this would prevent sensor damage when running in the O2 housing for 1G with native wideband code?

 

[toofast82]

I went ahead and installed my Innovate LC-1 yesterday. I put the sensor in the stock location and am running the Code at the beginning of the thread. Per my post above, i was not able to fit the spark plug fouler and sensor because I didnt have the room between my manifold. I set the switchpoints at 124 & 128. It appears to cycle at around 14.6-15.2 or so and seems to drive and idle with no issues. On first test, I found out I was running way rich in the 9.5:1 range. I leaned it out a bit and got her to go up to around 10.2:1. I spliced the brown wire in with the O2 wire and Egr-t on the ECU itself. On my logger, it does show my logger being about 0.5:1 richer than the gauge is showing. I will probably have to alter the switchpoints as the OP did as well. For now, i'm going by the gauge. Obviously there is more tuning to be done, but I just wanted to say how my experience is going so far and I am pleased with the results so far!

 

[We're on Boost]

toofast, where did you mount the actual LC-1?

Gary

 

[toofast82]

toofast, where did you mount the actual LC-1?

Gary

I ran the sensor wire to the driver side and zip tied the controller to (i forget), but either the power steering hose or a/c line. It really isnt in a hot area of the engine compartment and i spoke with Innovate and they said it's made to be mounted underhood.

 

[turboglenn]

I haven't read the entire thread, but i have had this issue with wide and narrow band sensors on closed loop systems in stand alones. MOst of the time it's all a factor of how many engine cycles the ECU counts between the reading and the correction timing. The more cycle you can program it to skip the smoother it will tend to get, until a certain oint where you overdo it and cause the surge to start al over again but really spaced far apart..

just read the first page.. I'll catch up on the rest tomorrow..meanwhile, sorry if this was already brought up, but it's just something i've dealt a TON with on stand alones when switching from an OEM japanese sensor to a bosch universal (mainly for the price factor, the bosch cycles a LOT slower than an OEM mitsu one and so does the signal from an AEM using a BOSCH UEGO sensor) So if you could change that code i bet you could solve this al together

EDIT: I did read some more that you changed sthe swing points and this may be a correction of the same type, but i only re-enforced my thought when i read that the LC1 performed better becuase it switches faster (like the OEM compared to the universal narrow bosch)

Can anyone even tell me if you can change the code that counts the engine cycles between correction from o2 feedback?

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

I went ahead and installed my Innovate LC-1 yesterday. I put the sensor in the stock location and am running the Code at the beginning of the thread. Per my post above, i was not able to fit the spark plug fouler and sensor because I didnt have the room between my manifold. I set the switchpoints at 124 & 128. It appears to cycle at around 14.6-15.2 or so and seems to drive and idle with no issues. On first test, I found out I was running way rich in the 9.5:1 range. I leaned it out a bit and got her to go up to around 10.2:1. I spliced the brown wire in with the O2 wire and Egr-t on the ECU itself. On my logger, it does show my logger being about 0.5:1 richer than the gauge is showing. I will probably have to alter the switchpoints as the OP did as well. For now, i'm going by the gauge. Obviously there is more tuning to be done, but I just wanted to say how my experience is going so far and I am pleased with the results so far!

Yep... I had to correct for a voltage offset also.

This is what I had to do:

1. Connect the serial output on the LC-1 to a laptop or a close desktop machine.
2. Install and open up the LM Programmer.
3. Program both analog outputs to output the same voltage. Do this by entering the same voltage in each box (i.e, 2.45v for voltage @ 7.35 AFR and 2.45v for voltage @ 22.39 afr)
4. Unplug the LC-1 unit from the laptop/computer and restart the unit by turning your key off then back on.
5. When the unit powers back up it should read the afr it's programmed for at 2.45v. (14.7)
6. Hook up your trusty logger cable and verify the voltage that is coming to the ECU. (Don't be surprised if it's different than 2.45v, mine was .20v off)
7. Find out the difference in voltage at the logger. Take the voltage logged and subtract 2.45v
8. Now, you have found that there is a difference at the logger/ecu. You have to realize that there may be a difference in voltage at the gauge too.
9. To find the voltage at the gauge, use this formula (AFR-7.35)/3.008=Voltage

Here's an example: (14.6-7.35)=7.25 7.25/3.008=2.410

10. So you now need to add this difference to the difference that was found at the ECU/Logger Example: If you're outputting 2.45v and see 2.50v at the logger and 2.41v at the gauge then you need to correct for .09v.
11. Now, to do this you need to modify the output on the LC-1 that is going to the ECU. (Do not modify the gauge's output. Although, You may want to later so that the gauge is more accurate. But, there is no way to get an exact voltage reading at the gauge without probing it with a multimeter.)

The formula to find AFR from voltage is: Voltage*3.008+7.35=AFR

12. Multiply your offset (.09) by 3.008 then add 7.35=7.62
13. The number you get in the formula above is now your AFR @ 0V for your analog output.
14. So, get into the LM Programmer again with the LC-1 connected and input the number you get (7.62v) in the AFR spot replacing 7.35 and delete 2.45v in the voltage spot and put 0.00
15. Now, to correct your top end of the scale subtract your offset (.09) from 5.00v and enter that in the box next to 22.39AFR.
16. Reset your values with the LM programmer for the Gauge's analog output to: 0.00v @ 7.35AFR and 5.00v @ 22.39AFR

What this does is drops the whole scale down by the offset you have programmed into it. In my example it will be sending .09v less to the ECU then it is to the gauge. Therefore, they should both read the same.

Hope this helps anyone that needed this info.

Also, when working with the LM Programmer make sure you click the check box in the Analog Ouputs pages that says AFR and not Lambda. I find it easier to calculate that way.

 

[steve]

The source impedance of the EGR Temp input on the ECU isn't infinite and the output impedance of the wideband controller isn't zero so connecting the two will require either a buffer amp or some offset adjustment in the hardware or software.

There are other parameters in the fuel trim/O2 feedback code. Feel free to read through it and see what they do. You can download the disassembly from the DSM-ECU yahoo group files section.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

The source impedance of the EGR Temp input on the ECU isn't infinite and the output impedance of the wideband controller isn't zero so connecting the two will require either a buffer amp or some offset adjustment in the hardware or software.

There are other parameters in the fuel trim/O2 feedback code. Feel free to read through it and see what they do. You can download the disassembly from the DSM-ECU yahoo group files section.

So, with your expertise did I explain how to correct the offset correctly?

 

[toofast82]

Thanks for the info guys! I am running MMSD for logging with speed density. There is a preference to set the 02 to LC-1 and many other company's widebands. It appears to vary exactly to .4:1 richer than my gauge. I've been dialing in my VE tables and the guage is showing about 11:1 and logger at 10.6:1. For now im trusting the gauge and not too worried about the variance. I am running about 20psi at 18*timing with no knock for now. My fuel maps are also set for 11:1. The closed loop seems to be operating correctly on the gauge according to my fuel maps as well. I have some bigger injectors, afpr and fuel pump ill be installing next week and try to tune with the E85. Then soon after i'll be putting my cams/smim/ and bigger turbo for some real power.
Speed Density and Hakcenter)

 

[mikyrc]

Hey guys, sorry If it's a bit off topic but could anybody tell me how can I hook up my plx wideband (0-5v output) to the ecu to be able to log AFR?
I'm using MMCD.

DO I just attach the output wire from the plx to the EGR temp input on the ecu and log EGR temps on MMCD? Is that simple?
Or should I put some kind of hardware between the plx and the ecu?