small upgrade require tune? *noob*

[90_eclipse]

Hey guys,

I'm pretty much noob when it comes to cars... I know my basics and I know functions for the most part. Anyways, I have a completely stock 1990 eclipse GS-T -aside from basic crap from the vfaq such as the hacked Air can. I planned on replacing the MAF with a 2nd gen from the junk yard since the 2nd gen apparently has much more airflow. Anyways, in order to keep it from running like crap, do I need to tune anything? Or is this just a bolt in mod and performance is noticeable on spot?

 

[Tim Melton]

sounds like a good idea but I dont know if you will realley see and performance from it.You should get a cheap boost controller if you want to feel some mor performance.Just dont turn it up past 10 p.s.i. .Thats just my 2cents though.

 

[90_eclipse]

I was thinking about getting a cheap manual one off of ebay. Still researching on how to hook that up and stuff .


Anyways, in order to have a benefit, or even have it run right, do I need to tune it? Or is it just a bolt on with no hassles, no worries?

 

[brian9397gsx]

yes youll need something to tune with. the 2nd gen is larger causing more flow and adversly leaning your a f. were your at unless your getting it cheap you do not need a 2nd gen mas.

 

[90_eclipse]

But since the air is still being metered, won't the ECU just compensate with more fuel?

 

[brian9397gsx]

not as much as you would think they meter air differently youll need at least an afc to tune with it. ive heard people throwing in 510cc injectors and it running ok but i dont know 100% how good that will work. you should follow the upgrade path its pretty helpful when starting out it can help you from buying stuff thats not really needed.

 

[LKWTSI]

I was thinking about getting a cheap manual one off of ebay. Still researching on how to hook that up and stuff .


Anyways, in order to have a benefit, or even have it run right, do I need to tune it? Or is it just a bolt on with no hassles, no worries?

Hold it right there...even a cheap Ebay MBC can screw your day, if you don't have an accurate way of measuring how much boost you're making. FIRST buy an aftermarket boost gauge and don't think about running a MBC with out it. The stock boost meter in your car is not accurate enough.

Better still instead of going through all this hassle right now, spend your money on making sure all the basic maintenance is done FIRST!!. Do an oil change, filters all round, plugs and fluids, just for starters. The basic maintenance is the best thing to do before you worry about adding bolt on tuner parts. All the money in world for parts are no good if the engine quits because of poor upkeep.

Just my 0.2cents.

 

[JayRolla]

Follow the upgrade path to be safe.

The 2g maf flows about 20% more air and will lean the car out to dangerous levels. Throughing in some 550's and a 2g maf pretty much makes the car run like stock and is pretty safe. Still reccomend a data logger to watch detonation so you dont kill your motor.

Also dont turn up any boost without a data logger unless you want to rebuild that motor soon.

 

[90_eclipse]

Thanks a lot for the input guys.

Well, as far as data loggers, I have no idea where to get one or even know where to plug it in.

Well if I get new injectors, will I have to change anything else? Such as fuel rail or fuel pump? and I assume if I get new injectors, all I gotta do is take out the old ones and plug in the new ones?

Sorry my questions might be nearly stupid, but that's pretty much how I am to this. I did all the routine maintenance. I changed the cap/rotor, spark plugs and wires, standard paper filter (wanted to change that, but with the idea of a new MAF I wanted to hold out on that), and oil change in both the engine and transmission... and that transmission oil did a hell of a lot of good stuff. I hope when you mean by "run like stock" you mean it will have a similar a/f ratio... not stock like performance wise.

Yeah, I read about how the stock turbo gauge works... pretty ###, because I thought I was hitting 14PSI at WOT. So do you think I could just grab a cheap gauge from autozone or pepboys or something? I'm not exactly the kinda guy that has a lotta money.

 

[LKWTSI]

There are many many different dataloggers, do some thread searchs and see what others are using. Probably one of the simplest and easiest ones are using a Palm Pilot and pocketlogger or MMCD software. You can either buy the cables relatively cheap or even make one. The threads are full of ideas. The Palm Pilots are out there by the dozen on Ebay, just make sure you do some research as to which one you get, as some models can't work with some software. Check out this link for some ideas.(also this is what I'm using and like it very much).Getting Started: Frequently Asked Questions

As for the boost gauge, cheap and simple ones from Autozone are fine, but for a few bucks more and maybe in the long run more reliable, go for a brand name like, AEM or Autometer.

 

[brian9397gsx]

go with a vdo boost gauge thats what i have it matches my stock gauges im kinda a whore like that though. deffinantly go with a datalogger for like 80 bucks its stupid not to. boost is fun but upgrade appropriatly. i was young like you once got my first boost controller cranked her to 18 that was a fun WEEK.... 3 broken ring lands later but hey that was 5years ago do fuel first monitor everything then turn the boost up not the other way around. you want that car to hang in there. right?

 

[spyderturbo007]

Thanks a lot for the input guys.

Well, as far as data loggers, I have no idea where to get one or even know where to plug it in.

Yours will plug into the OBD port under the dash.

Well if I get new injectors, will I have to change anything else? Such as fuel rail or fuel pump? and I assume if I get new injectors, all I gotta do is take out the old ones and plug in the new ones?

I'm assuming that you'll be getting larger than stock injectors, so yes, you will need something to compensate for the injector size change. The ECU doesn't know what size injectors you are running and bases all of it's fuel delivery calculations off 450cc injectors (for a 1g manual).

Sorry my questions might be nearly stupid, but that's pretty much how I am to this. I did all the routine maintenance.

You don't have to apologize for not knowing. Hell, I didn't know anything 8 years ago when I got my Spyder. Just do a lot of reading and ask questions about the parts you don't understand. We are all here for the same goal.....A faster DSM.

 

[90_eclipse]

Thanks a lot guys for helping me out with this.

So I'm gonna go ahead and get the 2nd gen MAF... I plan on buying a K&N filter + Dejon tool hard pipe + 2nd gen MAF. I'm a little nervous if it'll screw up my A/F to the point of damaging, but hopefully it'll all work out.

I'm also gonna buy a data logging kit that I found in the classifieds and it comes with
1. Palm m125 Palm Pilot
2. Datalogger Cable for Palm
3. Serial Hotsync Cable
4. CD with freeware MMCD 1.8g and other software and instructions on how to install.
5. Palm Hotsync software

Hopefully that's everything I need. I'm not sure what else I'd need if I plan on doing this. What else guys? I really didn't plan on upgrading the injectors... I've been reading my Haynes manual back and forth in how to install a multitude of things including the injectors... But now I don't really see the point in investing in larger injectors if the ECU is just gonna put the same fuel as if 450's were still in there.

 

[Brutal_r3drum]

i was kinda at the same point about 3 months ago.... i bought a 90 that had some crappy mods done to it... i went through and fixed the major stuff and after that i found out that the 2g maf was wired in wrong... i am running a 2g maf with stock injectors, wally 255 and a adjustiable fuel pressure reg... my car runs fine with this....

i would get a wide band o2 they are kinda expensive but they are worth every penny when it comes to watching wtf your motor is doing...

have you done your timing belt?? or know when it was last replaced??

 

[90_eclipse]

Hey,

I'm glad you running pretty much what I wanted. Just curious... How much HP are you running after that mod?

Well the eclipse that we have went through about 3 engines. Timing belt broke on 2/3, and the 3rd (current one) was rebuilt by my grandpa about 2 years ago, so I assume everything is running fine timing belt wise... The car has only been put about 7,000 miles since the rebuild.

 

[Brutal_r3drum]

haven't dyno'ed it but it's fast enough for me... for about another week when i fix my exhaust and run my wb o2 and apex'i safc...

 

[spyderturbo007]

So I'm gonna go ahead and get the 2nd gen MAF... I plan on buying a K&N filter + Dejon tool hard pipe + 2nd gen MAF. I'm a little nervous if it'll screw up my A/F to the point of damaging, but hopefully it'll all work out.

Just remember that you can't just throw a 2g MAS into a 1g car without compensation. The 2g MAS bypasses about 18% more air around the sensor than the 1g does. Just keep in mind that the MAS doesn't meter all of the air, only a portion. Anyway, the 2g MAS is going to put you 18% leaner than you should be and you risk blowing up the motor.

I'm also gonna buy a data logging kit that I found in the classifieds and it comes with
1. Palm m125 Palm Pilot
2. Datalogger Cable for Palm
3. Serial Hotsync Cable
4. CD with freeware MMCD 1.8g and other software and instructions on how to install.
5. Palm Hotsync software

That's all you would need for logging. Or you could always look into ECMLink if you want to go big.

But now I don't really see the point in investing in larger injectors if the ECU is just gonna put the same fuel as if 450's were still in there.

I think you might be missing something here so let me see if I can explain it a little better. The ECU's fuel delivery maps are programmed for 450cc injectors. Based on input from various sensors, the ECU determines the amount of fuel need to hit the target AFR. Based on this value, it opens the injectors long enough to deliver that volume of fuel. We call this IPW, or Injector Pulse Width.

So now that we have that, let's go ahead and see what happens when we swap injectors. The ECU doesn't know that you've installed larger injectors and is still basing all of it's calculations on what 450cc injectors flow at any give IPW. The problem is that you now have, let's say, 650cc injectors in there, which will deliver more fuel than 450's at the same IPW. That's why we need to compensate.
Does that make sense?

If you start upping the boost and increasing the airflow, sooner or later your stock injectors won't be able to deliver enough fuel. That means you'll have to upgrade, but for the reasons stated above, you need to compensate for the larger injectors. The are a lot of ways to do that, but we can get into that later.