safc or safc 2

[DSMDirkah]

Tuning with SAFC is like trying to masturbate with no hands. Sure you can get to where you need, but you will probably end up damaging something in process.

SAFC is just unsafe, hands down. There are so many variables with grab bag timing it is a nightmare. There are many cheap tuning options now of days that have been already mentioned so I would go that route. Link or Ceddy mod. You already have the correct ECU for Ceddy mod hint hint.

Or if you are wanting to go bigger later on down the road and have a wise local tuner, Megasquirt, AEM, or Haltech. Those are just a few but will cost more money, time, or knowledge. Not trying to bog you down, just letting you know what is out there.

 

[Chaosweaver]

The SAFC isn't as unsafe as you make it seem, since he isn't familiar with tuning it will be a good way for him to learn. If he gets a Wideband and some sort of logger he can start learning easily with an SAFC, with ECMlink he might be overwhelmed since he's never done it before and seriously damage something. Yes, you can tell him to find someone or pay someone to tune it for him, but his entire point is that he wants to do it himself.

ECMlink is not that hard to learn, but it requires at least some knowledge of tuning. At the end of the day its up to him, I recommended Link right off the bat, but if he cant afford it then the SAFC is another alternative. I'm sure everyone here would rather run an 650s on an SAFC than run 650s on nothing .

 

[DSMDirkah]

The SAFC isn't as unsafe as you make it seem, since he isn't familiar with tuning it will be a good way for him to learn. If he gets a Wideband and some sort of logger he can start learning easily with an SAFC, with ECMlink he might be overwhelmed since he's never done it before and seriously damage something. Yes, you can tell him to find someone or pay someone to tune it for him, but his entire point is that he wants to do it himself.

ECMlink is not that hard to learn, but it requires at least some knowledge of tuning. At the end of the day its up to him, I recommended Link right off the bat, but if he cant afford it then the SAFC is another alternative. I'm sure everyone here would rather run an 650s on an SAFC than run 650s on nothing .

If you think that not having complete control over your timing map is safe you are out of your mind (especially when it ADDS timing under higher loads). Why not just learn to do things the right way and not half ass it? Start out with something that will do the job correctly and will not try to put a band aid on a broken bone. There is a learning curve associated with tuning a car, and I am all for the learning process, but no one ever learned math by just punching numbers into calculator.

I am sorry if I come off a bit crass, but these are new times with great technological advances that allows one to tune these cars very cheaply. All it takes is some time and knowledge which is easily available on the internet.

I would rather run 650cc injectors on a megasquirt which costs $247 plus shipping before I would ever think of MAF hacking a car.

My comments are not influenced by the bandwagon, but rather cold facts.

 

[doubleclutch99]

The SAFC isn't as unsafe as you make it seem, since he isn't familiar with tuning it will be a good way for him to learn. If he gets a Wideband and some sort of logger he can start learning easily with an SAFC, with ECMlink he might be overwhelmed since he's never done it before and seriously damage something. Yes, you can tell him to find someone or pay someone to tune it for him, but his entire point is that he wants to do it himself.

ECMlink is not that hard to learn, but it requires at least some knowledge of tuning. At the end of the day its up to him, I recommended Link right off the bat, but if he cant afford it then the SAFC is another alternative. I'm sure everyone here would rather run an 650s on an SAFC than run 650s on nothing .

I definetly agree with everything in this post. anyhow the op asked what AFC controller he should get. not weather he should buy link or not . people think their way is the only way to do things . the old school guys on here cut their teeth on the safc . and i'll probably get flamed for this but i don't give a shit. I say let the guy buy what he wants.

 

[92AWDHX40]

And he will.

 

[Chaosweaver]

If you think that not having complete control over your timing map is safe you are out of your mind (especially when it ADDS timing under higher loads). Why not just learn to do things the right way and not half ass it? Start out with something that will do the job correctly and will not try to put a band aid on a broken bone. There is a learning curve associated with tuning a car, and I am all for the learning process, but no one ever learned math by just punching numbers into calculator.

I am sorry if I come off a bit crass, but these are new times with great technological advances that allows one to tune these cars very cheaply. All it takes is some time and knowledge which is easily available on the internet.

I would rather run 650cc injectors on a megasquirt which costs $247 plus shipping before I would ever think of MAF hacking a car.

My comments are not influenced by the bandwagon, but rather cold facts.

Never said it was safe, just not as unsafe as you make it sound. Either way, the dude asked about an SAFC not anything else. He'll probably get an SAFC 2, tune on it and move on. Before there was DSMlink, Megasquirt, ect people tuned on SAFCs and made good power and time with it. There's shit tons of DSMs running mid to low 11s on SAFCs, some even running 10s and they are very efficient as well.

If the SAFC is such a horrible product Apexi would have gone out of business ages ago. It works well for what it is, logging timing, knock, ect also helps the process of fine tuning on something as old an SAFC, why I recommended he get a logger along with it. As I stated before, it wont be as good as DSMlink, Megasquirt, ect, but it will make due until he decides to go bigger.

 

[DSMDirkah]

This type of thinking is the reason that the majority of DSM's stay on jackstands. People used SAFC in the past because that was all that was offered. SAFC is great for a car that has no other way to tune it, I agree with that, but in this case there are other options. I have seen so many engines trashed by SAFC but since everyone here is a subject matter expert, go ahead and have fun. Make sure to pray to the timing gods for the correct timing at "x" load. The funny thing is that the OP would come out cheaper without a SAFC but to each his own. I guess it takes personally grenading your engine before people understand.

 

[Chaosweaver]

This type of thinking is the reason that the majority of DSM's stay on jackstands. People used SAFC in the past because that was all that was offered. SAFC is great for a car that has no other way to tune it, I agree with that, but in this case there are other options. I have seen so many engines trashed by SAFC but since everyone here is a subject matter expert, go ahead and have fun. Make sure to pray to the timing gods for the correct timing at "x" load. The funny thing is that the OP would come out cheaper without a SAFC but to each his own. I guess it takes personally grenading your engine before people understand.

The reason I even stated anything at all is because my GSX has DSMlink and my TSI has an SAFC, so I constantly tune on both. Even with the advances of DSMlink it isn't really the best out there, pretty soon everyone will tell others to go with AEM instead of DSMlink because it will be outdated, ect. It all depends on what people want to do to their car, my set goal for my TSI is 350-400WHP since its my DD, so dumping the extra money on DSMlink for something I can safely achieve with an SAFC didn't seem worth it to me.

A certain mind set isn't why DSMs stay on jackstands. People doing a shitty job is what keeps them on jackstands, people beating the hell out of them is what keeps them on jackstands. People using what they can afford in an educated manner is usually what produces the better results. Since these people cant afford the latest technology or the best parts, they have to take care of what they have.

You got me rambling on now, .

 

[doubleclutch99]

Very well put . props man

 

[gst_clipse]

The reason I even stated anything at all is because my GSX has DSMlink and my TSI has an SAFC, so I constantly tune on both. Even with the advances of DSMlink it isn't really the best out there, pretty soon everyone will tell others to go with AEM instead of DSMlink because it will be outdated, ect. It all depends on what people want to do to their car, my set goal for my TSI is 350-400WHP since its my DD, so dumping the extra money on DSMlink for something I can safely achieve with an SAFC didn't seem worth it to me.

A certain mind set isn't why DSMs stay on jackstands. People doing a shitty job is what keeps them on jackstands, people beating the hell out of them is what keeps them on jackstands. People using what they can afford in an educated manner is usually what produces the better results. Since these people cant afford the latest technology or the best parts, they have to take care of what they have.

You got me rambling on now, .

this is very well put man..you stated that u use an safc of your DD because u said u could acheive your goals on one and thats where i stand as of now..my goals arent too big but the 350 range seems pretty nice. im just looking at my options now because i just got my e316g for xmas and want to put more in my car then jsut the turbo

 

[architechnik]

An SAFC II is ideal if you're going for mild modifications. Don't buy a gun to kill a mouse. Like somebody posted the comparison with an Iphone - it's overrated, over priced, more for people who are looking for ways to boost their own ego and image. If you want to increase your d-bag factor, go for it. You could also go and buy some $1000 rims and weld on some exhaust tips, but it's not going to make your vehicle any better.

You could even just get a socketed EEPROM ECU and program it yourself. Costs maybe $175 for programmer and extra chips. It's how I started and if you're serious about tuning you'll learn way more than if you just go for the bling factor.

In short, use discretion when making decisions about the modifications you intend to perform. Chaosweaver stated it quite well.

 

[DSMDirkah]

The reason I even stated anything at all is because my GSX has DSMlink and my TSI has an SAFC, so I constantly tune on both. Even with the advances of DSMlink it isn't really the best out there, pretty soon everyone will tell others to go with AEM instead of DSMlink because it will be outdated, ect. It all depends on what people want to do to their car, my set goal for my TSI is 350-400WHP since its my DD, so dumping the extra money on DSMlink for something I can safely achieve with an SAFC didn't seem worth it to me.

A certain mind set isn't why DSMs stay on jackstands. People doing a shitty job is what keeps them on jackstands, people beating the hell out of them is what keeps them on jackstands. People using what they can afford in an educated manner is usually what produces the better results. Since these people cant afford the latest technology or the best parts, they have to take care of what they have.

You got me rambling on now, .

But you still have not responded to the fact that it would be the same price for him to flash his ECU than using SAFC. He will have full control over his fuel, timing, extra options like stutter box, boost gauge knock, datalogging and so on. So based on the money argument, there is no reason to go with SAFC.

Price break down:

New SAFC2 $359
APEXI SAFC 2 D1 Black Limited Model - eBay (item 170581633195 end time Jan-19-11 06:40:30 PST)

Tactrix open port 2.0 $169
ECU Tools

This is a new for new comparison. So I don't get it. It is even cheaper to do it the right way.

 

[Chaosweaver]

Who the hell would pay $350 for an SAFC? I got mine for $100. Also if he flashed his ECU for lets say 550s and decided "hey, I want a little more, lets go with 680s" then he would have to reflash again. With the SAFC you can tune at your own will, also it doesn't require an Eprom which he might have to pay extra for. This argument is getting redundant, just because you may have destroyed your engine at some point using an SAFC doesn't mean someone else will have the same result. Its the kid's money, he knows what he wants and apparently I made a few good points that are making him want the SAFC for his power goals.

I use both, so its not like I'm being a fan boy about the tuning tools. For his power goals an SAFC, which he can find easily for less than $150, will be enough.

 

[DSMDirkah]

Who the hell would pay $350 for an SAFC? I got mine for $100. Also if he flashed his ECU for lets say 550s and decided "hey, I want a little more, lets go with 680s" then he would have to reflash again. With the SAFC you can tune at your own will, also it doesn't require an Eprom which he might have to pay extra for. This argument is getting redundant, just because you may have destroyed your engine at some point using an SAFC doesn't mean someone else will have the same result. Its the kid's money, he knows what he wants and apparently I made a few good points that are making him want the SAFC for his power goals.

I use both, so its not like I'm being a fan boy about the tuning tools. For his power goals an SAFC, which he can find easily for less than $150, will be enough.

To be fair I used a new vs new comparison. You can go out and get the tactrix cable used for less also but to keep things equal, I went with what you can buy both for retail.

Your other point about not tuning at will is moot as well. If he switches to different injectors he can just retune them "at will". In fact, after the initial tune of the car, it would be easier because more than likely a simple change of injector side, and deadtime might be all that is needed. You can reflash as many times as you need to get the tune correct.

I don't think that you are understanding what is going on with the flashed ECU's as you are not required to have an EEPROM ecu. He already has a 99 ECU which is reflashlable in stock form. If you do not know what you are talking about, please do not respond like you do. Misinformation can be dangerous.

I have used all three of these systems and have never destroyed engines as you say. I have seen others do such a thing and I know how easily this can happen using a MAF/MAP hack. My thoughts and opinion are based fully in experience and facts.

The points you made were uneducated (nothing wrong with that). Nothing good can come out of being so set in doing something a certain way that one is afraid of change. Change is good and everyone should embrace technology as it is there to make life easier. There is a reason that the aftermarket world is flooded with SAFC's. Some are upgrading because they figured out that it is junk, others are getting rid of the problem that blew there engine.

"If SAFC is so bad, than why is it still out there?" Well, I could ask the same about other companies: Cigarette companies, XBOX 360 (RROD), General Motors, so and so forth. But to not get too far OT I will recap:

The OP has a different more viable solution to tune his car. Not only are the solutions that I have set forth safer and fully capable of controlling a much more robust system, they are cheaper also. I did not pop in with a short "SAFC is junk and bad" and pop out, no I have supported my argument with more than "But Joe Schmucatelli down the road runs 157 MPH with SAFC!" I know that reflashing the ECU doesn't give you that nice shiny box with LIGHTS OMFGWAOWZZZZ, but you can still keep your ricer street credit on lock with the 2 step and anti lag.

Please read about this phenomenom:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tun...first-flashed-dsm-ecu-98-99-flashing-faq.html

Sorry about the rant

 

[Chaosweaver]

Never said change was wrong, as I stated I tune on both an SAFC and DSMlink. Either way the argument got old, kept me entertained for a while but time to finally move on. Ty for giving some valid points to your argument, ect. As far as my uneducated points as you call them, all I can really do is shrug it off. I can't react in any other way to be truthful and really prefer to not start an E-fight over something dumb.

Also keep in mind just because other people don't have the same views as you doesn't mean its wrong or uneducated. Anyway, doesn't really matter anymore.

 

[spyderturbo007]

I successfully tuned with the SAFC II for years before moving to DSMLink. I only made the switch because I got a really good deal on the EPROM ECU and DSMLink package.

I was running 650cc injectors at 23psi with no problems. Is it as powerful and as feature laden as ECMLink, no. Does it work just fine, yes.

 

[FLASH1970]

To the OP, you have the 99 ECU as stated already. If I were you I'd get teh Tactrix 2.0 cable with the mitsubishi plug to flash your ECU, then get EVOScan to datalog your car. Then use ECUFlas to flash your ECU. Here is a link to an EVO forum where there are a bunch of walk through videos on how to use EVOScan and ECUFlash.
Training Videos: How to tune an Evo with EcuFlash - evolutionm.net

Someone already linked to the Ceddymod thread which also has some good reading.

 

[gst_clipse]

thanks for the video link i learned a lot and evoscan/ecuflash looks like the real deal..i still have so many questions but i guess thats normal for a noob at tuning..any body kno anybody that i could send my file to and they could program it for me if i just save my current ecu files and upgrades and so forth?

 

[-red97rum-]

if he flashed his ECU for lets say 550s and decided "hey, I want a little more, lets go with 680s" then he would have to reflash again. With the SAFC you can tune at your own will, also it doesn't require an Eprom which he might have to pay extra for.

Wow, how horrible that would be! Open the laptop, pull up injector scaling, enter in 680cc injectors, adjust deadtimes and click a button to flash the ecu. No tricking the ecu to see less airflow..

That would be just horrible.. /sarcasm The 98-99 ECUs are not eprom and do not have a "chip" of any kind btw.

 

[Clinical]

I read further up about DSMLink not being as userfriendly as an SFC / easy to understand.

Seriously?

Okay, heres my story.. Gather round.
I got my 92 Talon with a basic bolt on build similar to old school setups, stock motor, 20g, 2g maf, keydiver chip, had an SFC in it but prev owner removed it as it went bad.

When v3 lite first came out it was cheaper than now to promote it, and I have friends at a shop so I got it for $300.

I had NEVER tuned a car, I had never READ into tuning it. I basically only knew that on my wideband what was rich and what was lean. I was still new in general to turbo cars. I had only had my talon/been working on cars for around 2-3 months at the time.

I bought v3 lite, when you buy it you tell them what MAF / Injectors / etc you have.

I got it, put the chip in, and started the car and drove it. It drove fine, a bit rich like a stock tune since it basically was, and even boosted fine.

I payed a local buddy to tune it as I didnt even really LOOK into making adjustments, well we found out my car had some massive issues, especially boost leak (3/4 of the throttle body gasket was missing and i was leaking a TON out of my bov).

So i ended up short some money since he still spent a couple hours with me not getting anywhere due to my stupidity of not having my car in good shape.

I fixed the leaks, fixed some other issues and was back on the stock DSMLink tune.

I didn't want to fork up more money for someone else to tune it, decided I'd read into it and see if I could do it. I got out of class one day, pulled out my laptop as I got in my talon to leave, spent 15-20 minutes reading a beginner guide on ECMLink's website and went out and started making adjustments myself. Within 30 minutes in boost I was sitting at great 11.2-11.5 in boost, a healthy 14/15 degrees of timing in boost with no knock whatsoever on 15psi. I ran 13.6 (actually that was before i even fixed my boost leaks, and was before I even really tuned it)

I raised my boost from 15psi-22psi with a wastegate spring change, so I didnt tune it 1psi at a time or anything, I just raised my fuel all across a ton, lowered my timing 2-3 degrees across the board, and got on it. Just ran rich. Kept pulling fuel until I was back in a comfort zone, and started adding timing and adjusting fuel until I was at 14-15 degrees of timing again at low-mid 11 a/f's. Ran 12.7@107mph and later with more fine tuning 14.0@110mph(Due to broken shift fork I had to skip 2nd gear, with 2nd should of been a low 12 second car)


Long story short, tuning on ECMlink is stupid easy. If anything an SAFC i believe is more of a hassle, you just get so little information from it.

I mean, seriously - ECMLink lets you log everything and save it right on your computer, you can log about everything, and for what you can't log there are ways to mod it so you CAN log it in a lot of situations. + Being able to simply make your changes and click 'Upload to ECU' on the fly without so much as turning your car off is far superior to having to burn chips all the time.

If you're arguing for an SAFC here and have never used a program like ECMLink / AEM / Hondata etc - please don't go trying to convince people to buy into old outdated technology unless they're getting it for an awesome deal and have a specific reason to use it.

The only way I'd use an SAFC is if for example, I bought a car with a pre-set chip or something and I didn't have big goals with it, if I could find an SAFC for $100 or less I might pick it up to fine tune the car to my liking, still I'd rather pawn off the chip and drop money on v3 lite

 

[gst_clipse]

well i guess ill have to go with dsm link when i get the money but another question..kinda off topic but somewhat about tuning..when u buy a wideband..where do u put the 02 sensor..this is with an aftermarket downpipe with no cat all the way back? ive a lot of different places but some clearing up this question would be nice..thanks ahead of time..

 

[doubleclutch99]

Wide band placement supposed to be approximately 36 inches after the turbo for best results. alot of link users put them in the stock location .

 

[gst_clipse]

and by stock location your referring to the 2nd bung..not the one right up on the turbo but the one back a little further. ive heard that you have to have a downpipe in which it deletes the cat and you should be fine in the stock location..on the cat back section of the exhaust? am i understanding this right?

 

[SOADweskey]

My wideband is in the O2 housing and it has been working fine for over a year.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Yes you can put it in the 02 sensor, which im going to do once link gets here.