running with cas 180 degrees off? 40 degrees of advance?!?

[sonicnofadz]

I've noticed some pretty strange timing advance readings on my logger after I got my engine back together. The engine idles fine, and besides the 6000 counts of phantom knock I get everything runs pretty smooth. I used a timing light and the timing is set to the mark that says "10 BTDC". I think this is where the stock base timing is at for 6 bolts, so thats where I set it to. But my timing is getting pulled on my logger all the way into the 30-40 range. WTF is going on? Most people only report getting around 20 degrees of advance at WOT, so how in the hell am I getting 40 degrees? Could this be a result of me installing the cas 180 degrees backwards? Could the car even run with the CAS 180 degrees backwards? Maybe this would explain all the weird ass knock I'm getting all over the place (at vacuum, at partial throttle, in neutral, etc.).

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

I've seen MR2's run with their CAS installed 180 degrees off, but that's on a standalone with the trigger palte installed wrong.. not sure on stock ECUs. I would assume it would just inject fuel on the firing stroke, puddling on the valves.

 

[loreak]

I believe timing should be 5 BTDC, and the manual says 8. I mean 10 is a tad high but i dont think that should cause any problems. Max timing during wot should be maybe 25, most cars are like 20.

 

[DevilSperm]

I believe timing should be 5 BTDC, and the manual says 8. I mean 10 is a tad high but i dont think that should cause any problems. Max timing during wot should be maybe 25, most cars are like 20.

correct..and with the CAS on backwards the car will pretty much run like ass...missing and stuff like that...its pretty noticeable...redo your base timing to 5-8 and see if that helps at all and go from there....and you are at 40 degrees with lots of knock?

 

[sonicnofadz]

its very weird...my logger will say that timing goes to 40, then i get tons of knock and then it gets pulled back to around 10-15...I am not sure about the accuracy of the MMCD program...maybe the timing reading in MMCD is incorrect? I am not sure...I'll try setting the base timing to 5 BTDC and see if that helps any. I have the feeling this is going to turn into a long phantom knock battle for me....argh. Got to love DSMs! =)

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

CAS position will not effect logger readings. the logger is telling you what timing advance the computer is trying to run, it does not READ the actual advance. if your CAS is installed 180* off yes the car will run strange. every 360* fuel fires once spark fires twice. so the car will run, jsut not quite right. what fuel setup are you running?

 

[SpoolnTsi]

The 40* timing advance your seeing is probably causing the knock your getting also

 

[sonicnofadz]

right now I'm running with the stock pump and stock FPR, but I have 650 cc injectors. I'm not having too much luck trying to dial in any type of good setting on my SAFCII...no matter what I do I just get huge amounts of knock. Im going to try to flip the cas around and see what happens. Anyone have any suggestions as to what kind of SAFC settings I should use with this type of fuel setup? Argh...I'll post what happens with the CAS flipped around 180*

 

[steve]

Just install the CAS as shown http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1199823&postcount=19

Make sure to disconnect your datalogger before setting the base timing, ground the timing check connector, and adjust the CAS so that you read 5 BTDC on the timing marks with a timing light.

I would start out setting the SAFC to -30 across your low trims and watch your fuel trims adjusting to get them as close to 100% at the various rpms keeping in mind that the ECU switches which trim it uses mased on MAF hz. Because you don't have any way to correct for the injectors deadtime difference over stock you going to wind up having the low rpm setting with a smaller correction than the other rpms because at short injector pulse widths the increased deadtime of those injectors will make up a larger percentage of the open time than it does at higher revs. Once you get the low trims adjusted to about 4k where the car might switch to open loop, copy those setting to the rest of the low and all the high trims. Then you can start making pulls to tune the high settings based on knock.

You will need a new fuel pump soon, the stock pump is going to run out of fuel before the 650's max out.

Steve

 

[sweet97]

I'm just adding something I found with my '93AWD. It was timed with the base timing at 20+ degrees! When looking down at the marks it says BTDC. Well my engine was timed with the notch on the pulley to the left of the BTDC. That is way advanced. The mark for 5 degrees is at the top, right of the marks. There is a wire/port that needs to be grounded to set the base timing and when removed it will raise the timing to 8*. I was getting knock that I could only tune worse with the base set incorrectly. Mark

 

[game-hunter]

The car will run with the cas in 180 degrees off. When I had my motor rebuilt I put my cas in backwards. The engine ran a little rougher and did not idle well after it was hot. It did not backfire. It would like to die when I pushed the clutch in when coming to a stop. The car runs ok because our cars use a waste spark system. Because of the waste spark system you can't tell if your cas is 180 degrees off with a timing light. The only thing wrong with the cas being 180 off is the injectors are turning on when the intake valves are closed.

 

[92tsifwd]

Did you get a cel on about a minute after starting and black smoke/ back fires when the cas was in backwords? I will check mine tomarrow cause mine has done this ever sence the new head. The code says knock sencer but, it was fine before the new head and there is no gue coming out of the sencer.

 

[FASTSPOOLINGST]

Put the timing to 5* BTDC. Be sure to ground it this time.

Your knock was starting high and then settling down becaue the ECU was retarding it for you due to the knock counts. It does that to try to protect the engine. You lose a lot of pony's when it does that too.

You are getting knock because your timing was too advanced and you were lean as balls.

That, and your a/f ratio could be too lean also. Re-shoot the timing properly, then do a pull, see what happens. Proper timing makes a world of difference.

I noticed you have bigger injectors with a stock pump. What kind of boost are you running? Are you at the stock boost still? Why didn't you upgrade your pump prior? You need a fuel pump.

 

[game-hunter]

92tsifwd my car ran ok(no back firing or black smoke that I can remember. It was a fresh rebuild so I was expecting some smoke) with the cas in backwards. I did have the timing set to 5* BTDC or 185* BTDC if you count the backwards cas. I drove the car over 3000 miles before I figured out it was in backwards. If your unsure if you have it in backwards double check it by following the link in steve's post, it's not that hard. To me though it sounds like you may have hooked up your knock sensor wrong or broke a wire when your replaced the head. Was your head wasn't put together right. Was your timing belt put on right?

 

[game-hunter]

I just reread the first post and realized how backwards the question was. 30-40 degrees is the opposite of getting timing pulled from 20 degrees. If your timing were really getting pulled you'd be in the 10 degree advance range. Sounds to me like your not really going WOT. Perhaps this is because your fooling your ECU with a SAFC so your not hitting the top load levels. Check out http://www.fullthrottletech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99 if you want to see what the stock ECU timing map looks like. Are you really seeing 6000 counts of knock on the logger? Actually now that I think about it that’s not possible. What are you really seeing?

 

[sonicnofadz]

I am still running the stock pump. I am only running 10 psi off my EVO 16G. I know that the stock pump cannot supply adequate fuel to feed high boost off the new turbo. I will install a walbro 255 soon. As for the CAS situation, I flipped the cas around 180 degrees, and NOTHING has changed. My timing in MMCD still reads like WAY too high for sime reason, and I reset the timing to 5* BTDC. I grounded the little plug on the firewall too (if you don't the timing just jumps everywhere). Very strange. Around idle (although I do have a high idle around 1500 rpms) I am getting 20-29* advance. Weird.

 

[sweet97]

It sounds exctly like my '93 when I found it was not correctly timed. Someone had the base timing set to a mark to the left of the BTDC letters when it should be set to the right of those letters. If you're sure you have it timed that way, then are you sure you are seeing the little notch in the pulley and not timing it to a "nick" in the pulley. Can't you use the logger to set the timing to 5degrees by watching it as you move the CAS? Mark Once you tighten the CAS down and remove the ground you should have around 8* timing advance. Mark

 

[game-hunter]

sweet97 you cannot set the timing using a logger. The value that reports is what the ecu is setting it to, if the base timing was set to 5* BTDC. That value should be what you see using a timing light with the marks on the timing belt cover. Note if your using a advanced timing light that has degrees be sure to set it to 0. With a timing light you should set the base timing to 5*BTDC, don't forget to ground the plug on the firewall. There is a notch on the crank pulley that should line up with the 5*BTDC marked on your timing belt cover. Our engines spin clockwise so this mark should be on the left side of TDC. If you set your timing to the right side of the marks on the timing cover your retarding your timing, and that’s retarded (More advance usually means more power, Although too much advance can cause detonation).

sonicnofadz did you install your cas like http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1199823&postcount=19 If not make sure you do. If your car was cold a high idle is not unusual. If it wasn't make sure your TPS and BISS are set correctly. According to the ECU map 20-30* advance is not unusual for low load at 1500rpm. You can also probably set your boost to 15psi safely with a stock fuel pump and a evo 16g. Keep an eye on your knock and O2 levels under boost though.

 

[sweet97]

I MAY NEED HELP!!! Mine was set to the left of the BTDC letters and I was havimng trouble. Kyle told me to double chek my timing and that's when I THOUGHT it was onthe wrong side. He sent me a pic I think from vfaq. I have a scanmaster 3 that will display th timing. i used a light to set the timing. I am not very good with comuters and finding things, I use web TV! If someone finds the post on vfaq could they post a link here? Thanks, Mark
PS: Does the BTDC have a 5* line that is marked?
Now I'm really messed up as I thought I had it corrected. So you think I have it retarded by LOTS?
Gotta find those vfaq pics. Mark

 

[sweet97]

Gamehunter I respectivly disagree with you. I just went out to my garage where a spare engine is and here's what I saw. There are the leters BTDC. Directly below them is a 10. All of the way to the right at the edge is a "T". This "T"#must be "T"op dead center. Therefore the mark between the T and the 10 is 5*. I say if anyone has their initial set to the left of the 10 they havejust set their initial to 15* before TDC and that is why the guy is getting 20-25 degrees advanced at 1500 RPM. Mark

 

[game-hunter]

Sorry about that sweet97, I thought you had set your timing to the right of TDC. You are absolutely correct in saying 5* is the mark between the T and 10*.

 

[sweet97]

No harm, no foul gamehunter. I have my timing set to the right of Btdc. So the mark between the 10 and the "T" is 5* before TDC. I think the writer of this post may have his initial set to the left of BTDC which would be 10* to far advanced which could be his problem. Mark

 

[steve]

No harm, no foul gamehunter. I have my timing set to the right of Btdc. So the mark between the 10 and the "T" is 5* before TDC. I think the writer of this post may have his initial set to the left of BTDC which would be 10* to far advanced which could be his problem. Mark

Maybe we are still having a problem with the description.
The the correct timing mark is the first (small) line to the left of the T, then next mark to the left after that is 10. This is as you look over the fender at the engine. As far as I remember there are no marks on the front cover to the right of the T.

I just went and checked and at least on a 6 bolt 1G there isn't any marks to the right of TDC.
Anything to the left of TDC is advanced and anything to the right is retarded

Steve

 

[sweet97]

That's the way I understand it Steve. Actually it would be difficult to have the timing set after Top Dead Center as the "T" is at the end of the markings. i brought up the base timing as it seemed to "fit" the description of the post originator who had 20-25 degrees advanced at 1500 rpm. If he had the base set on the mark to the let of the letters BTDC he would have his base at 15 degrees advanced and after removing the ground wire he would have the base at 18 degrees advanced making 20-25 degrees possible at 1500 RPM. When I bought my car someone had set the base using the first mark to the left of the 10 which just about drove me nuts trying to tune. Mark

 

[steve]

Exactly, now we are on the same page.

Steve