Running E85 with HX-35

[dsmtbopwr]

I am wondering if I can run e85 with my setup. I would really like to, but I'm not sure if I have injectors big enough to be able to.

I am running a walbro 255 with the rewire, fuel lab AFPR, Russel fuel rail to tank, and FIC 1000cc injectors. I'll be tuning with link.

Can I run e85?

 

[gofer]

A HX-35 flows between 50 - 53lbs/min (correct me if I'm wrong) so heres how you'd figure out if your injectors will be maxed running E-85.

Calculating injector flow rates for E-85
1000cc (size of your injectors) x 0.67 (ratio of gas in E85) = 670cc

After looking at that equation the end result is your 1000cc injectors will flow equivalent to a 670cc injector when running E85. A 650cc injector will be at 100% IDC with a turbo that flows 47lbs/min and your Holset will be flowing50lbs/min or more maxing out your injectors and then some... With airflow numbers like that the smallest injector you could run if your going to convert to E85 would be an 1150cc injector, ideally you'd want to see 80% IDC's so a 1300cc to 1350cc injector would be the correct size.

 

[jrohner]

Yes, those injectors should match up pretty good with your setup on E85 if your going with the bolton housing. If you're running the 7-blade with the t3 housing, you'll probably need bigger injectors to get the most out of it.

The only way to know for sure is to run it and see. It depends a lot on your tune as well. If you tune pretty rich, you may run out of injector, but otherwise you should be just fine.

 

[SohcBigTurbo]

1000's ( if rated at 43.5) equates to around 1170cc @ 60psi, ~1270cc @ 70psi, ~1310cc @ 75psi. Basicly tune for correct AFR's using Link and the FPR and keep the IDC (duty cycle) under 85%. You should be ok.
Hx35's are usually around a 54mm compressor wheel. Also, I doubt you are going to max out the compressor map on a stock bottom end without sitting on a dyno with an experienced tuner

 

[dsmtbopwr]

Damn so should I stick with 93 pump?

My car is currently at a shop and will be getting rode tuned. When I brought it to them I just said tune for 93, but now I kinda wanted to go with e85.

My goal is 11.9 or 400WHP.

 

[Gamble97]

I am wondering if I can run e85 with my setup. I would really like to, but I'm not sure if I have injectors big enough to be able to.

I am running a walbro 255 with the rewire, fuel lab AFPR, Russel fuel rail to tank, and FIC 1000cc injectors. I'll be tuning with link.

Can I run e85?

You "can" but you will be really really close if not maxing out your injectors.
Get some bigger injectors, you will need them.
This 2nd chart is a general rule of thumb
baseinjectordata [ECMTuning - wiki]

 

[toofast82]

Damn so should I stick with 93 pump?

My car is currently at a shop and will be getting rode tuned. When I brought it to them I just said tune for 93, but now I kinda wanted to go with e85.

My goal is 11.9 or 400WHP.

You could make 400whp on E85 with the 1000cc.
They're just saying you may need larger injectors if you're looking to MAX out the hx35s lb/min capabilities
E85 will allow you to tune for more aggressive timing and slightly leaner a/fs which will make more power than pump gas at the same psi

You can have more than one tune, ya know

 

[SohcBigTurbo]

run dual pumps, stick with those injectors and up the fuel pressure. Tuning is key. you also have to take into account that e85 likes a leaner AFR (measured on a gas-calibrated Wideband) of around 11.8-12.0 is where it tends to make the most power

 

[gofer]

1000's ( if rated at 43.5) equates to around 1170cc @ 60psi, ~1270cc @ 70psi, ~1310cc @ 75psi. Basicly tune for correct AFR's using Link and the FPR and keep the IDC (duty cycle) under 85%. You should be ok.
Hx35's are usually around a 54mm compressor wheel. Also, I doubt you are going to max out the compressor map on a stock bottom end without sitting on a dyno with an experienced tuner

As fuel pressure is raised higher and higher, the flow available from the fuel pump gets smaller and smaller. Running fuel pressure up to 60psi at the rail is 17psi over stock and I would HIGHLY recommend not doing this...

You get bigger injectors to support your turbo's airflow requirements and to keep IDC's at 80-85% 1350's would be ideal. Your 255 fp will suffice along with your stock fuel lines, I would suggest to get a FuelLab fuel filter with a metal filter as E85 will eat the stock paper one.

You can take all of the above information into account but I am currently running E85 and used these numbers to figure out my setup. I'm running 950cc injectors on a turbo that flows 47lbs/min (less than your Holset does) and I'm seeing 90 to 95% IDC's at redline which are WAY WAY WAY to high. I need bigger injectors and I guarantee you will as well if your going to be seeing 400whp with that Holset.

 

[dsmtbopwr]

I see what you guys are saying. As of now I cannot upgrade injectors or add another pump till I have funds for them. Which will be awhile. The owner said he would talk to his tuner to see if I would be okay to run e85..I made this thread to see what you guys would think and maybe get an idea of what the tuner might say.

I also did ask about having a tune for 93 and a tune for e85. But I will have to go back for which ever tune I don't get now later.

Also, I've heard about having to clean the injectors because they get gummy from e85. How often does that happen? How do you clean them? Just normal use some water and a rag?

 

[gofer]

Also, I've heard about having to clean the injectors because they get gummy from e85. How often does that happen? How do you clean them? Just normal use some water and a rag?

Its not the E85 that gunks up your injectors, its the crap thats settled into your fuel tank/fuel lines/filter that the E85 breaks loose and runs through your fuel system which is collected at the tip of your injectors (the gunk that you were referring to). I've been running E85 since March and with every oil change just pull my injectors and check the tips for gunk. I have noticed less and less gunk on them since March and after the E85 cleans everything the gunk should stop appearing. A q-tip and isopropyl alcohol does the trick to clean them...

You can run an E85/93oct 50/50 mixture and still see some benefits of running it while keeping IDC's within specs, again theres a mathmatical equation to figure it out if your interested.

 

[dsmtbopwr]

Its not the E85 that gunks up your injectors, its the crap thats settled into your fuel tank/fuel lines/filter that the E85 breaks loose and runs through your fuel system which is collected at the tip of your injectors (the gunk that you were referring to). I've been running E85 since March and with every oil change just pull my injectors and check the tips for gunk. I have noticed less and less gunk on them since March and after the E85 cleans everything the gunk should stop appearing. A q-tip and isopropyl alcohol does the trick to clean them...

You can run an E85/93oct 50/50 mixture and still see some benefits of running it while keeping IDC's within specs, again theres a mathmatical equation to figure it out if your interested.

Very interested. I could mention it to the tuner maybe. Hmmm.

 

[SohcBigTurbo]

I've been running e85 for almost 2 years, first running the update for the hx35, the 60mm He351cw@ 22psi with 1000's and saw 83-88IDC's, and now running the predecessor to the hx35, the h1c. I was running 1000's, but downsized to 850cc's, and run a static fuel pressure (49psi) with the factory deadhead system with a 255. My friend owns a local machine and dyno shop that has tons of experience with e85. a Subaru from that shop is making over 430whp on a ej25 with an FPred and only pulling 75%IDC on e85 with 850's..... It is all in the proper tuning, and e85 in the real world acts differently than most people think

only thing with running a "blend" is you will get inconsistent AFR's and cannot get a solid tune because the e85 will not, fully, mix with regular gasoline. My buddy's head tuner wont even touch a car with a blend in its tank

 

[gofer]

I've been running e85 for almost 2 years, first running the update for the hx35, the 60mm He351cw@ 22psi with 1000's and saw 83-88IDC's, and now running the predecessor to the hx35, the h1c.

You were running a turbo thats rated airflow is 67 lbs/min with 1000cc injectors on E85 and only seeing 88% IDC? I call B.S. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know EVERYTHING about cars, I actually think I know very little.

The math doesn't lie, I don't care who tunes the car... Injectors are flow tested running gasoline, so a 1000cc injector flows approx. 1000cc/min on pump gas. The gas ratio of E85 is 0.67 and since injectors are flow rated on gas you must figure out what they'll flow running E85 through them... (43.5psi base fuel pressure is assumed)
1000cc x 0.67 = 670
(injector size x 0.67 = injector flow on E85)

Injector Supported Airflow
A 670cc/min injector would be maxed running a turbo pushing roughly 48lbs/min , so how were you seeing 88% IDC's on a turbo pushing 67lbs/min? As far as I'm concerned the proof is in the pudding, you can say whatever you want about a guy you know or your setup once upon a time. I'm not trying to start up an argument but what your saying makes absolutely no sense in the real world. Can someone confirm my math or am I missing something here?

To the OP at the bottom of this page there is a E85 table for injector supported airflow, that way you don't have to do the math...

 

[juanpac0]

Its not the E85 that gunks up your injectors, its the crap thats settled into your fuel tank/fuel lines/filter that the E85 breaks loose and runs through your fuel system which is collected at the tip of your injectors (the gunk that you were referring to). I've been running E85 since March and with every oil change just pull my injectors and check the tips for gunk. I have noticed less and less gunk on them since March and after the E85 cleans everything the gunk should stop appearing. A q-tip and isopropyl alcohol does the trick to clean them...

You can run an E85/93oct 50/50 mixture and still see some benefits of running it while keeping IDC's within specs, again theres a mathmatical equation to figure it out if your interested.

The issue with running E85 and 93 50/50 is that you're dealing with the inconsistincies of two fuels vs. just one. As you know E85 mixtures change from season to season, and you hear people getting "that bad tank of gas" relatively sparingly, but it's still possible. E85 is great if you want to push your car way past what pump can do, but it's so easy to tune to the ragged edge with E85 - and it's so knock resistant - that it would require constant monitoring to be safe. Unless you want a safe e85 tune, but where's the fun in that?

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

You were running a turbo thats rated airflow is 67 lbs/min with 1000cc injectors on E85 and only seeing 88% IDC? I call B.S. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know EVERYTHING about cars, I actually think I know very little.

The math doesn't lie, I don't care who tunes the car... Injectors are flow tested running gasoline, so a 1000cc injector flows approx. 1000cc/min on pump gas. The gas ratio of E85 is 0.67 and since injectors are flow rated on gas you must figure out what they'll flow running E85 through them... (43.5psi base fuel pressure is assumed)
1000cc x 0.67 = 670
(injector size x 0.67 = injector flow on E85)

Injector Supported Airflow
A 670cc/min injector would be maxed running a turbo pushing roughly 48lbs/min , so how were you seeing 88% IDC's on a turbo pushing 67lbs/min? As far as I'm concerned the proof is in the pudding, you can say whatever you want about a guy you know or your setup once upon a time. I'm not trying to start up an argument but what your saying makes absolutely no sense in the real world. Can someone confirm my math or am I missing something here?

To the OP at the bottom of this page there is a E85 table for injector supported airflow, that way you don't have to do the math...

He was only running the turbo at 22 psi. I'm sure it would require much more boost than that to hit it's peak rated airflow of 67lb/min, if that really is what it's rated to. Compressor CFM ratings are considered the maximum flow values, just where the turbo drops out of it's efficiency range. So it's quite possible that he wasn't even at 48 lb/min. It's also possible it was an E70 blend instead of E85 for example.

As he said earlier, it's possible to raise base fuel pressure higher than stock, as long as you have enough fuel pump flow to support it, to get much more out of any injector size.

To the OP: You can almost definitely hit your 400whp mark with your current setup. If you ran a 12.0 AFR and raised base fuel pressure maybe 2 psi, you should be able to squeeze enough out of those injectors to hit your mark. In my experience a single rewired Walbro 255 is close to the equivalent flow of 1150cc injectors at 100% IDC. Be careful when going near 90% IDC though, in my experience most off the shelf injectors like FIC etc tend to start sticking open anywhere from 87% to 92% IDC. If you see a sudden dip in AFR as your approach peak IDC, your injectors are sticking open. You want to avoid this condition as the injector solenoids can burn out quickly, or even get permanently stuck open, which is NOT good.

Its not the E85 that gunks up your injectors, its the crap thats settled into your fuel tank/fuel lines/filter that the E85 breaks loose and runs through your fuel system which is collected at the tip of your injectors (the gunk that you were referring to). I've been running E85 since March and with every oil change just pull my injectors and check the tips for gunk. I have noticed less and less gunk on them since March and after the E85 cleans everything the gunk should stop appearing. A q-tip and isopropyl alcohol does the trick to clean them...

You can run an E85/93oct 50/50 mixture and still see some benefits of running it while keeping IDC's within specs, again theres a mathmatical equation to figure it out if your interested.

This is a heavily debated topic. A chemist on the DSMLink forums analysed some E85 and discovered what he's pretty sure to be the buildup we're seeing to be in the actual fuel itself. It also appears, from taking many samples from around the country, that the amount of this stuff in the blend from the pumps vary greatly. This supports the fact that some people have this issue and others don't. There are also several people with full nylon fuel lines and fuel cells who have seen this same buildup.

 

[dsmtbopwr]

I have a friend now running e85 with a 255, 880s and on a 16g he ran a 12.2 at 29psi so he said. Stock longblock, stock fpr ect. He was only tuned on a chip. His car picked up so nice.

 

[donniekak]

You were running a turbo thats rated airflow is 67 lbs/min with 1000cc injectors on E85 and only seeing 88% IDC? I call B.S. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know EVERYTHING about cars, I actually think I know very little.

The math doesn't lie, I don't care who tunes the car... Injectors are flow tested running gasoline, so a 1000cc injector flows approx. 1000cc/min on pump gas. The gas ratio of E85 is 0.67 and since injectors are flow rated on gas you must figure out what they'll flow running E85 through them... (43.5psi base fuel pressure is assumed)
1000cc x 0.67 = 670
(injector size x 0.67 = injector flow on E85)

Injector Supported Airflow
A 670cc/min injector would be maxed running a turbo pushing roughly 48lbs/min , so how were you seeing 88% IDC's on a turbo pushing 67lbs/min? As far as I'm concerned the proof is in the pudding, you can say whatever you want about a guy you know or your setup once upon a time. I'm not trying to start up an argument but what your saying makes absolutely no sense in the real world. Can someone confirm my math or am I missing something here?

To the OP at the bottom of this page there is a E85 table for injector supported airflow, that way you don't have to do the math...

What you don't realize is that even with the 1000's being equal to 670's, you can get more power than you would on gasoline fuel and 670's. Using the 670's and gas, you could lean out to around 11.5-11.8:1. With e-85, comped for 670's, and using a gas scale afr, you can lean out to around 12.6 afrs, with much more timing. I have seen dyno charts with 500+ whp on e85 and 1000's.

 

[habitatguy187]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/253452-e85-injector-max-lb-min-calculations.html


FWIW I'm running e-85 on 750s and a nt fpr (47psi base fuel pressure)

 

[dsmtbopwr]

To the OP: You can almost definitely hit your 400whp mark with your current setup. If you ran a 12.0 AFR and raised base fuel pressure maybe 2 psi, you should be able to squeeze enough out of those injectors to hit your mark. In my experience a single rewired Walbro 255 is close to the equivalent flow of 1150cc injectors at 100% IDC. Be careful when going near 90% IDC though, in my experience most off the shelf injectors like FIC etc tend to start sticking open anywhere from 87% to 92% IDC. If you see a sudden dip in AFR as your approach peak IDC, your injectors are sticking open. You want to avoid this condition as the injector solenoids can burn out quickly, or even get permanently stuck open, which is NOT good.

are you saying 400whp almost def on e85 or pump?

If I can't get it to 400whp I'll be pretty disappointed :/

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

are you saying 400whp almost def on e85 or pump?

If I can't get it to 400whp I'll be pretty disappointed :/

Well the original question was about E85 so that's what I'm responding to.

Also, a side note.. If you're looking for 400 whp and at the moment don't have the funds to get a 2nd fuel pump or larger injectors, you might want to wait until you have some extra cash laying around. When you start getting to 400whp and up, things often start breaking.. Just a thought.

 

[dsmtbopwr]

Well the original question was about E85 so that's what I'm responding to.

Also, a side note.. If you're looking for 400 whp and at the moment don't have the funds to get a 2nd fuel pump or larger injectors, you might want to wait until you have some extra cash laying around. When you start getting to 400whp and up, things often start breaking.. Just a thought.

I understand that. We'll see what happens. Hopefully I get some where near that or at least a good time at the track, but who knows all depends on the tune right now.

 

[gofer]

Thanks for clearing all that up Beau, I guess you could get away with having 660cc injectors with E85 running a 35r if your only pushing 10psi of boost but whats the point? It just makes no sense why you'd want to run a turbo thats cable of 67 lbs/min but run low boost to create just enough airflow to stay within the means of your injectors (50 lbs/min).

 

[jrohner]

If you're only looking for 400awhp, I'm happy with my RC750's at that. All these formulas you guys are using to compare E85 to pump are B.S. since you can run E85 quite lean, vs pump that is usually tuned pretty rich. 1000's are like 700's on E85, BUT who runs pump gas at 12.5:1+? IMO this thread has been more bench racing, excuse me - calculator racing, than anything else. I'd take my car over pencil and paper any day, especially when trying to learn something about cars. If calculations are done using airflow and AFR's they are accurate, I've done it before myself, but just saying "this is what you can do on gas, so divide it by this and that's what you can do on E85" is just the wrong way of doing calculations.

You can say the 'math doesn't lie', but it sure does if you're not using all the necessary information.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

1000's are like 700's on E85, BUT who runs pump gas at 12.5:1+?

You can, just without a lot of boost. Which doesn't make sense in terms of power, but does in terms of efficiency.

Also, when tuning on E85 the most you should go is 12.5:1. Anything more then that it can handle but with the knock resistance of E85 you should be worrying about cylinder temps then and not knock counts. Same goes for timing advance on E85. You can go WAY beyond MBT on E85 and it'll take it, but sooner or later the cylinder will not.

As for the OP, go ahead and run it. As long as you know how to tune you'll know what you need to look for in terms of warning signs. If your IDC's get too high then back off the boost until you can afford to upgrade necessary and supporting parts. If your 1000cc injectors ACTUALLY flow 1000cc (which most do not), then the most you would want to run is around 44lbs/min. With that being said you'll most likely be limited to somewhere around 42lbs/min at decent IDC's.

Thanks for clearing all that up Beau, I guess you could get away with having 660cc injectors with E85 running a 35r if your only pushing 10psi of boost but whats the point? It just makes no sense why you'd want to run a turbo thats cable of 67 lbs/min but run low boost to create just enough airflow to stay within the means of your injectors (50 lbs/min).

You also have to think of compressor efficiency Corey. Can a 35R hit that kind of lbs/min? Yes. But in doing so you are maxing the compressor out on it's efficiency island and it is raising your IAT's because of it. The trick with running E85 is that you can MAX a turbo out and not think too much of it because of it's cooling properties. As soon as that fuel atomizes with the hot air it instantly cools it down.