Ring and Piston sizes - dummy q's

[architechnik]

Alright, forgive me on this but it's the first time I'm braving the internals.

I'm doing a mostly stock rebuild after Jiffy Lube F'd my engine (still working on getting that money). I've compiled an entire list from ExtremePSI but have yet to purchase it. I'm unsure about piston and ring sizes and how each relate. I need to know before ordering both the parts and the machine work to be done. My budget is 2k total, including all shipping, tools (rental and purchase), and includes a MHI E-3 16g.

At the bottom is a list of what I currently have on my list from ExtremePSI.

What is the difference in sizes for piston rings? Is the oversize only for increased bore when I get the machine work or is it from standard wear?

Can I use the stock pistons with a .020 overbore and oversized rings or am I supposed to buy larger pistons to match?

Do I just have the cylinders bored to .020 over or just have them honed?


Is there anything I'm missing on the list? Should I skip on anything listed?

(Timing setup was replaced less than 10k and is in great shape. I'm going to skip on that until the end of summer.)

Definitely:
Topline Valve Seals
Topline Valve Guides
Topline oil pump assembly
Topline Freeze Plug Set
Topline Revised Lifters
MHI Evo III 16g
OEM valve locks
OEM piston rings standard
ACL Tri-metal main and rod bearings
Balance shaft removal
Full gasket set
ARP headstuds
Thread sealer
Moly Lube
Injector O-rings/Spacers
Walbro install kit (I've gotta get that thing in there finally!)

Maybe:
OEM oil strainer
4 oil squirters


Basic stock-up:
PCV valve
2 packs NGK BPRES6
2 OEM Oil filters
OEM fuel filter
2 Packs Clips/Body fasteners

 

[Daveed]

I tried to put my responses in bold and underline near the Qs for ya.

Alright, forgive me on this but it's the first time I'm braving the internals.

I'm doing a mostly stock rebuild after Jiffy Lube F'd my engine (still working on getting that money). I've compiled an entire list from ExtremePSI but have yet to purchase it. I'm unsure about piston and ring sizes and how each relate. I need to know before ordering both the parts and the machine work to be done. My budget is 2k total, including all shipping, tools (rental and purchase), and includes a MHI E-3 16g.

At the bottom is a list of what I currently have on my list from ExtremePSI.

What is the difference in sizes for piston rings?
They go in .5mm overbores starting from the stock 85mm
Is the oversize only for increased bore when I get the machine work or is it from standard wear?
Only get oversized if the block has been bored bigger. The machine shop can determine whether a hone is fine or if the scratches/wear are deep enough it needs to be bored. Don't order the parts till the machine shop tells you if a hone is fine or it needs a boring.

Can I use the stock pistons with a .020 overbore and oversized rings or am I supposed to buy larger pistons to match?
You have to buy larger pistons if you get the block bored. Just using bigger rings won't work at all.

Do I just have the cylinders bored to .020 over or just have them honed?
The machine shop will be able to figure that out for ya. Depends on how deep the damage/wear is.


Is there anything I'm missing on the list? Should I skip on anything listed?
You can use the home depot racing injector insulators for $3 instead of paying the inflated price. Do a search to find the exact info on them.
A search on tri-metal bearings may be fruitful due to the advice for their use. I went with regular bearings for mine after reading a bunch of info on the tri-metals.
A factory headgasket is what I went with also after reading tons of info on cometic MLS vs factory stock composite. So do a search on that to figure out which one you want. I was at first convinced I needed a cometic MLS then realized that with my setup it wasn't necessary and my block wasn't machined to the necessary smoothness for it to work properly either. So I sold my cometic before even using it and bought a factory composite one.
The machine shop will probably figure out if you need new freeze plugs and replace them for you.
They also will likely be able to do the head work for ya if you are so inclined. If you do your own then go to sears and buy the $25 valve spring compressor that looks like a MASSIVE c-clamp. It works pretty well. Also, get a valve lapping tool and the lapping compound at your local old school autoparts store.
PS If your motor got toasted by no oil then you may have metal filings in your turbo thrust bearing. It may be worth pulling that apart to see if there is damage or crud in there that will damage it shortly (didn't see if you had a turbo but you said oil squirters so I just figured you had a turbo).

(Timing setup was replaced less than 10k and is in great shape. I'm going to skip on that until the end of summer.)

Definitely:
Topline Valve Seals
Topline Valve Guides
Topline oil pump assembly
Topline Freeze Plug Set
Topline Revised Lifters
MHI Evo III 16g
OEM valve locks
OEM piston rings standard
ACL Tri-metal main and rod bearings
Balance shaft removal
Full gasket set
ARP headstuds
Thread sealer
Moly Lube
Injector O-rings/Spacers
Walbro install kit (I've gotta get that thing in there finally!)

Maybe:
OEM oil strainer
4 oil squirters


Basic stock-up:
PCV valve
2 packs NGK BPRES6
2 OEM Oil filters
OEM fuel filter
2 Packs Clips/Body fasteners

 

[tqmx1]

You shoud also check your head cam jernals. Alloy head+iorn cams and a lack of oil is a recipe for disaster. Bad galling can and will happen between the two metals.

 

[architechnik]

Alright, I'll wait on the rings until I take the block to the machine shop. If the bore has increments of 0.5mm, then I shouldn't need new pistons for the minimum, correct? I'm trying to keep it as budget as possible and new pistons cut out a lot of other options. I would probably have to ditch the new front case, squirters, and pickup/strainer.

Most of the tools I'll be loaning/borrowing from Autozone, including ridge reamer, piston ring clamp, valve spring compressors, torque wrench, etc. I want to try keep as much of my money in my pocket as possible.

I'm upgrading to the EVO III 16g turbo, as included in the list. I did not include the O2 housing, so I'll have to tack on another $100 to already $1700 tag I'm looking at with what is listed.

I believe the full OEM gasket set from Extreme includes the headgasket, but I'll verify when I place the first half of the order tomorrow.
EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - OEM Engine Overhaul Complete Block/Head Gasket Set : Mitsubishi Eclipse 1G 7 Bolt

I'll also verify that all the components will work in tandem with a stock '94 7-bolt setup (valve guides, front case, etc.).

EDIT: I forgot to ask: what bearings would you suggest? ACL AluGlide?

 

[architechnik]

You shoud also check your head cam jernals. Alloy head+iorn cams and a lack of oil is a recipe for disaster. Bad galling can and will happen between the two metals.

I've got some spare stock cams and gears that I'll finally be swapping in. Do you think the rockers will be shot? I'm not sure what material or wear situation they follow.

EDIT: Oh, I just saw you were talking about the journals. I heard you're not really supposed to mess with those. Can I even replace them without a bunch of machine work or are they just like the mains and rod bearings?

 

[outkastracing]

alright well if you only have two gees your way over!!! get on ebay order a gasket kit for like 80 bucks then take and order a good metal head gasket like 95 bucks k see it adds up fast you might want to think about a top line rebuild kit! there about equal to stock!!! as far as .020 over bore no you cant use stock pistons unless you get a stock piston that is 20 over id say the block is fine just spun a main or rod bearing! ###### so youll need a oil pump and housing since your there get rid of the balance shafts! see where this goes! it takes alot of time and money to do this and if you spun a rod bearing then youll need atleast one rod so those are like 60-80 a piece so just get some eagles im not saying that you cant do it for 2,000 but its going to be hard and just take time and find the right price ebay will be your friend in this build!

 

[architechnik]

Getting rods AND pistons would just kill me with all the other stuff I need. What do you mean I'm WAY over? Because that $1700 will still need to add the cost of rods and pistons?

I don't believe I've spun a bearing. There was about 60 seconds form the time the oil light came on and the engine was shut off. The rings are burnt for sure and it's spitting oil like mad. The lower end should be fine, but the bearings are being replaced because I'll be in there anyway. There was no overheating and the car now drives with low compression and blue smoke. I figure the valve seals and guides are probably shot from age (200k miles before blow out).

There is no loud knock or apparent rod damage from the outside. If it comes to that when I disassemble this weekend, then I'll just get another used bottom end from dsmgraveyard.

 

[Daveed]

I guess you won't totally know what needs to be replaced till you get it all the way apart to inspect it. I'm sorta doing a similar rebuild. It started off with just replacing the valves...then it went from there into a total rebuild.
The machine shop was able to hone the cylinders. I was able to keep the pistons and stock rods. That saved some money. New rings and rod bearings. The crank was polishable...didn't need turning. New bearings though.
I got most stuff from parts dinosaur and some from mitsubishi parts and some from extremepsi. Probably into it about $800-1000 so far.
Seal and gasket kit via ebay. Toss the head gasket in favor of a factory oem though ($50) from extremepsi. I had the head done by the machine shop...it was just easier and quicker and I know it was done right so that was $218 with some new valves and all new seals with surfaces checked for straightness and the typical valve job. Oh, and the thing is gleaming clean. Pretty much same for the block.
I was able to do the old school clean the ring grooves with a piston ring option. Also ring installation was easy. I actually had an old ring compressor (you can rent one at autozone though). Balance shaft elimination. The kit is cheap or you can just buy the plug and reverse the bearings and cut off the rear shaft and plug it with a longer bolt. Saves ya a couple of bucks.
Oh, my turbo was toast so I had to get another. My exhaust manifold was cracked, so I had to get another. My wastegate wasn't big enough for the hole anymore so I got a bigger one and ported it to match. My water pump was full of rust so I had to get another (car sat for a couple years). transmission output seal was leaking badly so I replaced that and both t-case seals. Still have an axle seal to do though. I put new brushes in the starter and that actually fixed it (one was completely worn out)...so that was $7 instead of 80 for a rebuild or 30 for a used. The list just keeps going and going and going...
I'm rambling so I'll stop now

 

[architechnik]

No, don't stop rambling! Sometimes it's the little bits of info that help. I'll take the whole head to the carquest/Jiffy machine shop as soon as I pull it. I have not been able to find a place to rent a hoist, so I'm pulling it in sections and leaving the tranny installed. Not the best way, but I've gotta make do. I'm buying a stand for $60, but the hoist is $200.

Looking at the cost for the ebay topline gasket kit, that's a definite go. I'll get the oem HG from extreme. Thanks everyone for the input so far. Should I wait on ordering the HG until I find out if I need a bigger bore?

EDIT: Oh, and when was the HG only $50 from Extreme? I'm seeing $90.

EDIT 2: Strike that. I was looking at the multi-layer metal OEM.

 

[Daveed]

I took my motor out with a jack. Had the head off and everything else so it was pretty much just the short block. Wasn't too bad. I'll be putting it back in with a hoist though. Harbor freight has a pretty good deal on an engine stand or you could find a used one. Had to buy about three $2 apiece bolts to hold the motor in the stand though. The tranny bolts weren't long enough for the stand.

Yah, wait to order anything that is size dependent (including headgasket) till you find out if you need to bore or not.
Have you measured your crank end play yet?

 

[outkastracing]

while your there i would definetly get head studs there pretty cheap and just a good reassurance. i would wait to order the head gasket until you get the head back just in case they have to take any off the head to make it straight then you can compensate for that with the head gasket for clearance reasons! also one other thing for you to look at is i got a set of bearings off ebay for cheap to there going good so far got like 120 miles on them another way to save a dollar!