[RESOLVED] Clutch engagement problems

[spyderturbo007]

I just had my mechanic install the HyperDrive C2 clutch kit and a HyperDrive flywheel and now I am having engagement issues. You can view the package I purchased here:

http://www.extrememotorsports.com/c...-Clutch-Kit-90-99-Eclipse-Talon--p-32872.html

I also replaced the clutch fork and fulcrum. Sean at Extreme told me to have them remove the buffer and attach the SS clutch line directly to the hard line that attaches to the slave.

I just got the car back and it's pretty much undriveable. Every time I attempt to release the clutch, regardless of where I rev the car to or how fast I release the pedal, the car stutters and shakes. It feels like the clutch is rapidly engaging and disengaging and causing the car to shake. I can also feel this when downshifting. Once the car is in motion and I'm upshifting, everything seems fine. I can shift normally and don't have any problems. I adjusted both the pedal stops so that I have about 2" of dead space up top and the clutch engages about 3 off the floor. I also bled both the master and slave thinking that might help.

The other problem I have is when the car is reved above about 5k. I can hear a high frequency metallic rattling. Almost like something isn't tight. Would that have anything to do with the lightened flywheel?? It just doesn't sound right.

Can anyone help?? Thanks!!!

EDIT -> Both the master and slave were new last year and I checked them both and neither are leaking.

 

[dsm-onster]

I just got the car back and it's pretty much undriveable. Every time I attempt to release the clutch, regardless of where I rev the car to or how fast I release the pedal, the car stutters and shakes. It feels like the clutch is rapidly engaging and disengaging and causing the car to shake. I can also feel this when downshifting. Once the car is in motion and I'm upshifting, everything seems fine. I can shift normally and don't have any problems.

Sounds exactly like your hub springs broke. . . And this is an new disk! Your above link to your kit doesn't work for me. . .

Did the mechanic check the stp height of the FW. I've never done this w/ a new FW purchase. BUT, I had a dsm wisman tell me that he's had the step height be out of speck on several new performance flywheels he's purchased so, I don't know anymore. . .

The other problem I have is when the car is reved above about 5k. I can hear a high frequency metallic rattling. Almost like something isn't tight. Would that have anything to do with the lightened flywheel?? It just doesn't sound right.

More symptoms that suggest a broken hub spring. . . That is rubbing somewhere. It's happened to me. I've tore the hub springs up on two BRAND NEW street performance disks. Competition Clutch and ACT. . .

Do you have a new Mitsu throw-out bearing?

 

[spyderturbo007]

The link should work now, not sure what happened there.

Yep, everything was new from Extreme. Sean told me that they check the step height before they send them out, so I would't think that would be a problem. As for the hub spring, I'll have to look into that since I know almost nothing about drivetrains. I normally hang out in the tuning section.

I'm not sure if the TO bearing is OEM or not, truthfully I didn't even think to ask when I ordered it.

I found out over the weekend that my mechanic was smoking something when he was working on my car. I don't know what they were thinking, but after 7 years, I'm not sure if I'll ever go back.

They didn't tighten the alternator piviot point and the belt jumped and took out the PS belt. I'm missing 2 bolts from when the pulled the tranny. There is now a huge dent in the oil pan from jacking up the motor. Oh and they stripped one of the bolts on the right side motor mount where the tranny bolts up.

With all that, I'm assuming that they screwed up the clutch installation. I talked to Sean last week and he said it sounded like they bent the input shaft when they were pulling or installing the tranny.

I don't know what I'm going to do.

 

[Maglin]

Wow. Well it sounds a lot like chatter that is consistant with a puck style disc which you installed. It's pretty hard to bend the input shaft and if it was bent it would shack very badly in neutral. It's possible that they also missed a pressure plate bolt as it would have similar effect. I had purchased a 6 puck clutch as my first clutch. Had the same stuff go on with it. I ran it for about 200 miles and it wasn't getting to much better. It does get a little better as it starts to bed in, but their will always be that chatter. I switched over to a street disc and all was golden.

 

[dsm-onster]

They didn't tighten the alternator piviot point and the belt jumped and took out the PS belt. I'm missing 2 bolts from when the pulled the tranny. There is now a huge dent in the oil pan from jacking up the motor. Oh and they stripped one of the bolts on the right side motor mount where the tranny bolts up.

With all that, I'm assuming that they screwed up the clutch installation. I talked to Sean last week and he said it sounded like they bent the input shaft when they were pulling or installing the tranny.

I don't know what I'm going to do.

Because of discovering this, I really would not drive the car at all until you have all the transmission bolts and have them secured properly. Heres why:

1. Some grease ball swapped a clutch out for the previous owner of my car and he just decided that the rightside engine/tranny bolt (one close to the firewall) wasn't important enough to reinstall. I discovered that disingageing the clutch would work the other bolts loose and then the tranny would push away from the engine when disingaging the clutch. It started w/a little chatter. Then got worse to the point where I couldn't disengage the clutch at all. Then finally, the consequential warping/tweeking of the clutch disk busted the hub into pieces... Well, at least I learned a bit about tranny/clutch installations though that epic saga!

2. Also, the tranny rocked away from the block enough to break off my front engine "ear" used bolt the tranny/engine together. I had to improvise just to salvage the 6-bolt. . . All because some joker didn't bother replacing all the bolts. Get a refund!

Did you pull the tranny yourself? If so tap new threads yourself and do your own clutch install.

 

[kmoore]

Totally irrelavant but, are you having problems getting into gear also? What tranny fluid are you using just out of curiosity?

 

[spyderturbo007]

Because of discovering this, I really would not drive the car at all until you have all the transmission bolts and have them secured properly. Heres why:

I'm not actually sure the two bolts that are missing are to mount the transmission to the motor. It looks like more of a dust cover for something. As for the other one on the tranny mount, that is definately stripped and missing. I'm taking it back in tonight, so I will get stuck driving it about 3 miles. Hopefully that one bolt missing on the mount won't hurt anything for that short drive. I talked to the guy at the shop, who has been a friend of mine for years. He apologized about 30 times and told me that he has no idea how that happened, but they were going to take care of everything, no matter how much money they lose on the job.

Did you pull the tranny yourself? If so tap new threads yourself and do your own clutch install.

Nope, they did the entire job. I don't normally get into things that are that involved. Unfortunately, the house my wife and I bought last year, doesn't have a garage, so I would be doing all the work in the street. She loved the kitchen, but I wanted a garage. We see who won that one.

 

[dsm-onster]

They always win. Even when I THOUGHT I won and got the big a$$ turbo. . .Nope! she still won.

The engine/tranny bolt on the radiator side and the engine/tranny bolt on the firewall side are the most important. If one of those are missing, then the opposite engine ear will fracture off eventually. HOPEFULLY, it didn't happen as you were just running into chatter, not a pure lack of disengagement. If the firewall bolt is missing/stripped, then when the front "ear" breaks, at least we have the front rollstop to drill into. So that we can install a long bolt and nut set. If the front is missing, you're SOL. USUALLY though, the firewall side gets stripped/missing as the bolt is tightened into an aluminum tranny casing. I've been tempted to put in a stud w/ red thread lock or JB weld. I think this will do better to prevent stripping. . .

 

[spyderturbo007]

Well, I took the car back to the shop where I had the installation done and they agreed to fix all the problems. However, they said that in their experience with 5-finger clutchs, that is how it's supposed to be. I feel that the car is not driveable from a stop and even shakes when downshifting. The weird thing is that when you upshift everything feels normal.

I'm going to call and talk to Sean this morning and see if I can figure out what is going on. The shop agreed to put a different clutch in there for me and said if something with a full disk fixes the problem, then I have to pay for the labor. If it doesn't, they said that they will eat the price of labor and the cost of a new clutch.

Are there certain things they should be looking for when they remove the clutch / PP / flywheel? I asked them to have the step height checked and look for obvious damage, but is there something else?

Thanks for all your help.

 

[dsm-onster]

Sorry. I jsut have no experience w/ this clutch kit. . . Does the clutch disk come w/ a marcel? Springs and marcels encourage streetability. A sprung hup can absorb the shocks that occur during engagement.

And, a marcel is a thin, wavy piece of metal between the two facings. It flattens (compresses) when the clutch is engaged to avoid CHATTER. Lost of things can cause chatter but if there is no marcel present then a disk will likely chatter a whole lot.

You mentioning that it doesn't chatter all the time (only going into first and down shifting) would suggest that a marcel is present. But, I've had no experience w/ this set. If you rev and engage the clutch quickly into first from a stop (a launch), does it still chatter?

 

[Maglin]

dude hope you have money to pay them. It's going to be just fine after they put a street disk in it.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Sorry. I jsut have no experience w/ this clutch kit. . . Does the clutch disk come w/ a marcel? Springs and marcels encourage streetability. A sprung hup can absorb the shocks that occur during engagement.

And, a marcel is a thin, wavy piece of metal between the two facings. It flattens (compresses) when the clutch is engaged to avoid CHATTER. Lost of things can cause chatter but if there is no marcel present then a disk will likely chatter a whole lot.

You mentioning that it doesn't chatter all the time (only going into first and down shifting) would suggest that a marcel is present. But, I've had no experience w/ this set. If you rev and engage the clutch quickly into first from a stop (a launch), does it still chatter?

I honestly have no idea if the clutch has a marcel. Truthfully, I didn't even look at the setup since I had it drop shipped to my mechanic. They are going to pull the tranny and inspect everything, so I'll get a chance to look when they do that.

I didn't rev it too high, maybe about 2500 and you could still feel the jerking, but it wasn't as pronounced. It still felt like I was going to break something.

dude hope you have money to pay them. It's going to be just fine after they put a street disk in it.

Don't worry about me, I have a really good job and no kids, so the money isn't even a concern. I just want the car to be "right" again.

I really think there is something wrong after talking to Sean again today. He is obviously very knowledgeable about these things and has never pointed me in the wrong direction. I guess all I can do is wait until they pull the tranny.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, I know the jerking can really be alarming. But, a race 6-puck or 4-puck clutch can be quite noisy w/ a "low torque" takeoff. I also know that if you do a decent launch on it you'll never feel the chatter in 1st. It's a race cluch and designed to be driven hard.

We're just not getting the level of jerking on tha intarweb. It's hard to tell if it's jsut something you're not used to or if it's something too severe for even a race disk.

 

[spyderturbo007]

You are exactly correct. It's a hard thing to express to someone that isn't there to experience it.

I must say, when it happens, I fell like something is going to snap. That, and you can hear my new EVO 2 cat back slamming against the hangers. I'm not sure what I'm going to do.....I wanted an upgraded clutch and still wanted to maintain driveability. This car isn't even fun to drive anymore. Every time I try to pull out in traffic, I feel like the car is going to fall apart. Maybe it's normal for a 6-puck, but when someone tells you it's 95% streetable I never expected this?!?!?

I guess if they don't find anything wrong when they pull the tranny, I'll suck it up and get a new clutch kit. Anyone want to buy a Hyperdrive C2 6-Puck with 27 miles on it.

Now I just have to figure out what I need to get. Can I keep the same flywheel, or does that have to match with the clutch kit?

 

[dsm-onster]

Be hopeful. If you are, at least you're happy for little while longer until you get any bad news you may be anticipating .

I'd be interested in the clutch. BUT, I'd like to see it first considering the chatter issue.

If you really trust Sean from this clutch company then likely theres somethign else wrong. 95% streetable doesn't mean "H-h-h-h-h-o-o-o-o-o-l-l-l-l-ld-d-d-d-d . . .o-oo-on-n-n-n 'til I shift into second" . I suggest you really wait until your shop pulls everythign apart again. REALLY look over the clutch again. A little patience goes a long way. Because:

1. You're sure the disk is sprung (maybe you got shipped the wrong disk from the one pictured in your link), right? You never saw the disk.

2. Also, It's entirely possible that you got a fluke and the springs just broke.

3. Considering not all the tranny bolts were installed and one really important one (if there is one more important than another), I truely think the disk got cocked or warped or flexed enough to break a spring in the hub.

Frustrating mess happens like that. You bought a DSM . I feel for ya. DSMTuners is one big pitty party sometimes. It's ok. Share the grief .

 

[dsm-onster]

Also, you said that Sean checks the step height before they go out. Is the step height of the flywheel stock? Or does the clutch DISK require a different step? That is the question about flywheel versatility. A stock step height will work w/ ACT, clutchnet, Competition Clutch, and others. . .

EDIT: unless the flywheel and pressureplate bolt pattern is different. I've never seen this.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Be hopeful. If you are, at least you're happy for little while longer until you get any bad news you may be anticipating .

If not, I could always start drinking......Which I'm kind of thinking about doing right now considering "my baby" is broken. The problem is that I only have a 6-pack of Franziskahner left. I guess I'll have to run to the store.

If you really trust Sean from this clutch company then likely theres somethign else wrong. 95% streetable doesn't mean "H-h-h-h-h-o-o-o-o-o-l-l-l-l-ld-d-d-d-d . . .o-oo-on-n-n-n 'til I shift into second" .

Actually, all my dealings have been with Sean Glazar from Extreme MotorSports. Considering his "track record" , I don't think he would lead me in the wrong direction. Unless there was just a horrible miscommunication.

I suggest you really wait until your shop pulls everythign apart again. REALLY look over the clutch again.

The problem is that I'm going to have to pay to have them pull it apart again if there isn't anything wrong with the installation. It's not that I can't afford it, but I just wish I knew for sure if it is supposed to be chattering as much as it is. Too bad I can't find someone around here that could tell me for sure. I've called every performance shop in the area and have been told by them all that they don't have experience with 6 puck disks.

Because:

1. You're sure the disk is sprung (maybe you got shipped the wrong disk from the one pictured in your link), right? You never saw the disk.

2. Also, It's entirely possible that you got a fluke and the springs just broke.

3. Considering not all the tranny bolts were installed and one really important one (if there is one more important than another), I truely think the disk got cocked or warped or flexed enough to break a spring in the hub.

I hope, I just hate throwing away $800 for nothing.

Frustrating mess happens like that. You bought a DSM . I feel for ya. DSMTuners is one big pitty party sometimes. It's ok. Share the grief .

I don't want to share the greif!!!! I guess I should feel lucky, since this is my first major problem with the car. Everything else has been routine maintence and mods.

 

[dsm-onster]

If not, I could always start drinking......Which I'm kind of thinking about doing right now considering "my baby" is broken. The problem is that I only have a 6-pack of Franziskahner left. I guess I'll have to run to the store.

I beer ya-- er, I mean HEAR ya. I'll drink an extra cold one for you since you're not here. You do the same for me and we'll be even .

Actually, all my dealings have been with Sean Glazar from Extreme MotorSports. Considering his "track record" , I don't think he would lead me in the wrong direction. Unless there was just a horrible miscommunication.

OOH! . . . hmmm, I don't htink he would either. Make sure YOU see the clutch disk. Post pics and watch the disassembly. If he's a good-guy mechanic then he'll let you on the shop floor.

I don't want to share the greif!!!! I guess I should feel lucky, since this is my first major problem with the car. Everything else has been routine maintence and mods.

What DSMer HASN'T had clutch troubles. Like I said. Just wait. LOOK at the clutch yourself. Then go from there. It's entirely possible that anything is possible at this point.

 

[spyderturbo007]

I beer ya-- er, I mean HEAR ya. I'll drink an extra cold one for you since you're not here. You do the same for me and we'll be even .

Actually, I'm getting ready to head out the door and meet some friends at a bar down by the river.

OOH! . . . hmmm, I don't htink he would either. Make sure YOU see the clutch disk. Post pics and watch the disassembly. If he's a good-guy mechanic then he'll let you on the shop floor.

I won't be able to watch them pull everything out because of work, but he told me that he was going to set everything aside so I could check everything out before we proceed.

What DSMer HASN'T had clutch troubles. Like I said. Just wait. LOOK at the clutch yourself. Then go from there. It's entirely possible that anything is possible at this point.

I'll definately take some pictures of everything and post them up so you can take a look at them. I just need to figure out what direction I'm going to take if everything checks out.

Thanks again for all your help Matt!!! Although this is going to cost a fist full of cash, at least I'm learning something. Maybe that will prompt me to move my butt out of the tuning section.

 

[dsm-onster]

Yup! getting my a$$ handed to me by my clutch sagas certainly casued me to stray from the turbo tech section. . .

 

[Maglin]

stray from the turbo tech section. . .

Oh now. It's just a click away.

a bar down by the river.

Love it.

And you won't have to buy a new PP. You could just use the one you have and get a full disc from the company and get rid of the puck disc. I think your tranny would like you for it.

 

[spyderturbo007]

So I could just pick up the disk and that would be it? This seems to be the only other disk the company has, but I haven't been able to find a place to just get the disk. I'm also trying to find the torque specs so I don't end up with a new clutch that can't hold the power.

http://www.extrememotorsports.com/c...-Clutch-Kit-90-99-Eclipse-Talon--p-32871.html

EDIT -> Nevermind. I talked to Sean again and he said that he could sell me the C1 disk by itself, so that should save me some money. He also told me that it will hold anything under 400WHP and drive just like stock. That will be perfect. I still think I'm going to send out the flywheel to be machined, just in case. This is provided that there isn't any damage when they get the tranny out.

Thanks again to both of you guys for your help.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Well, here's my update. I stopped in yesterday because they called and said they had the tranny out. I looked at everything and it seemed normal to me, but then again I think it was only the 3rd time I've ever seen a clutch in person.

Anyway, the only thing I noticed was a small dark spot on the pressure plate. Almost like a "hot spot". I went ahead and ordered the C1 full street disk and asked Sean about the spot. He told me if you put a straight edge on it and it looks good, then you are fine. I guess if it's not obvious, there isn't a problem.

Here are some pictures of the parts...Sorry the quality sucks, but I only had my camera phone.

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[dsm-onster]

Yea, it's just a "grabby" race disk. Obviously you have to run it hard into first for it not to bounce. That's life . Go back to the river .

It's hard to tell if the disk is "marcelled". But, no mater you're putting in a street disk. You'll be happy. That's why we drive.

I'm interested in the disk. PM me a price if you want to let it go. IMHO, I think you just don't like the way a race clutch engages. There really seams to be nothing wrong w/ the disk at all. So you'll be selling a good disk w/ little to no miles on it. It deserves a fair price. So don't be afraid to tell me what you really want for it.

As for the heat spot. I suggest not worrying either. It's now a place that has been heat tested and has passed w/out a crack . Your flywheel looks great. Isn't that an ACT streetlite?

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

Yeah all the pictures look fine, except for that one heat spot but no worries. You will probably be much happier with it after the street disc is installed.

Bill