Recipe for Corvette-class performance

[c5chris]

What can I do to my GSX to make it a comparable car to a C5 without sacrificing drivability and reliability? Im thinking a Big16G turbo and an FMIC. Do I need an ECU upgrade or bigger injectors?

I love my GSX coz it feels alot safer than the Vette. The only thing I dont like is its weight. I know it can be overcome by bigger hp and torque so that is what I am trying to accomplish.

Thanks guys.

 

[BQuicksilver]

No problem Chris, feel free to e-mail me anytime. Chris, the 3700lb number is correct on a DSM, but it is an EPA number. They weigh the car with a full tank of fuel, oil and two (not four) 150lb passengers to simulate actual driving conditions to find the fuel economy. I guess that would put dry curb weight at around 3300.

The numbers I have given are legit, not that I've had much dispute. Of course, out at the track we see lots of slower numbers for many reasons...be it inexperienced drivers, trying out new techniques etc. But just as a 13.0 sec vette will often pull a 13.5 when a mistake is made, a 14.0 second DSM (or any car) will often pull a 14.5 for the same reasons. It's just easier to report the timesthat people quote for sake of fair comparison. I was out watching a friend (who runs 13.2's) this fall when he blew a launch and hit 13.7....some Mustang moron went on to say that his car's faster because he's had a timeslip of 13.5. See the fault in that reasoning?

Silent2g: I think we all know stock C5's don't hit 12.5's now. FWIW: The best I've ever heard was 12.7 for a stock C5 coupe.

 

[Hitchhikkr]

Um correct me if im wrong guys but I thought the whole idea to the DSMs is that we can make our cars go as fast or faster than a vette for far less money than it costs to actually buy a corvette? Just my 2 cents.

 

[GaRn]

hey nutshot.. now your dissin vettes? ouch.. its a damn good thing this is on a dsm forum.. pretty soon youll be sayin every car ever produced, except yours, is a piece of ####! theres nothing wrong with a pushrod engine.. look how much hp it makes! still kicks fords ass, they had to slap a supercharger on their peice to make it outrun the vette.. so then the zo6 is nice?
isnt it the same damn thing with better cams/flowing heads/suspension? my brother owns a vette, 76.. it just died, sort of.. it had 200k miles on it without a problem besides power steering pump, and the teeth on the timing chain pulley stripped.. there goes the valvetrain, not to mention the heads..

 

[BQuicksilver]

Originally posted by nutshot
Recipe for Corvette-class performance

1. Produce a mediocre vehicle for 40+ years with limited runs of performance enhancing packages aimed at elevating the status of the vehicle to sports-car.
2. Convince aging Baby-Boomers that this can be the same as the car they salivated over in HS, capable of supplying the testosterone and class they imagined in their 3rd period Algebra course, if they wish to purchase a $45,000 marketing excersize.
3. Enter races that require few (if any) stock components and are not restricted (as the street car is) by the stifling emissions and clean-air junk that was bolted onto a block designed in the early 50's which does not adapt well to the smog-equipment or take advantage of it.
4. Use the same level of sofistication and technology throughout the vehicle, from the push-rods to the horrendous shift-knob to the ass-end of a middle-aged house wife for a tail.

Oh, sorry, I thought you wanted to know how Chevrolet can get away with producing the C5... The Z06 (not available at dealerships) is fast and agile, but the regular (available at dealerships) C5 is not exemplory in any manner, especially against Supra TT's, 3kGT VR-4's, mildly modded GSX's, etc. Mmmm... Pushrods... Wait, that's right, those absorb HP...

Hehe, I hate to flame, but when a post is this uneducated...

1) I really don't think the pedigree of the vette needs to be defended. Any knowledgeable car guy can understand it's impact on the sport's car market for the past 50 years (not 40 ). One quick question, what do you consider a "sports car" if the Vette cannot rise to such criteria? Does a 'new' 1g DSM have more sporting character or perform better stock vs stock? Not to knock DSM's, but your standpoint is hard to appreciate unless you drove a Ferrari or Porsche. Those are about the only two cars I can think of with a stronger heritage than a Vette.

2) Ahh the middle age stereotype... I assume you're a 16 year old ricer b/c you have a DSM. Actually I don't, I'm not that simplistic. Well, I guess I did drool over the early 90's C4's and ended up with a C5, but then again the car I ended up with was far better than the car I fell in love with. Looks like the vettes are getting better to me. Wait until the C6 hits next year. Through the grapevine it sounds like 435hp DOHC good for 7000rpm in a 3050lb package. Personally, I feel that the vette team has done a great job through the years. I really can't say the same for Mitsubishi Eclipse, as they have went from the excellent DSM to the mediocre car thay have now.

3) What MAJOR racing circuit emphasizes keeping street-legal emissions equipment? I implore you to name one? AMLS is the most appropriate circuit for corvette to be in, as it emphasizes reliability, high-speed cornering, and allows large displacement engines to be used. What circuit do you suggest Corvette to run in? Wouldn't it be kinda silly to see vettes in the WRC since they are track cars. And why would GM care about F1 since using a 3 liter 15000rpm engine would result in a car that resembles a vette in no way.

4) So you have some subjective opinions about a few vette components...who cares? I hate your spark plug wires.... I'll leave your insult of the vette's "sofistication" alone until you explain what the issue is.

Of yeah, you'll never believe it, but the Z06 IS available everywhere vettes are sold. What in the world gave you the idea they weren't? "Regular" C5's aren't exemplary in any manner? Oh Jesus Have you ever seen a stock vs stock race between a "regular" C5 and any car you mentioned...it's pretty ugly in favor of the vette. We can talk all year about modded vs stock cars, but let's not get into that.

I never knew pushrods absorbed hp.... I've probably got 600rwhp if I could just get rid of those da*n pushrods.

 

[BQuicksilver]

Originally posted by Hitchhikkr
Um correct me if im wrong guys but I thought the whole idea to the DSMs is that we can make our cars go as fast or faster than a vette for far less money than it costs to actually buy a corvette? Just my 2 cents.

Amen, that's exacly why having a DSM is very cool.

 

[nutshot]

Sigh... Look, Chevrolet makes a car called the Corvette. It's base model is not stellar. Not to insinuate that the RS or GS Eclipse's are either, but the base model Vette costs more than a GSX, and is not fast enough to account for the price. I have ridden in Vettes, and while fun, they are not noteworthy. True, there is always some limited production model that accounts for like 15% of Vette sales each year that stomps everyone else. But explain to me why Chevrolet is still using pushrods. Or why does Ford get a bum rap for running the same horses in it's DOHC 4.6 as Chevy's OHV 5.7 (Camaro SS)? In my book, making big HP is not all that matters. Take the weight of a Chevy 350 and compare that to a DSM 4g63t. Now compare HP/liter. Why is Corvette so cool? I agree the Z06 is awesome, and takes Zora's technology to the extreme, but innovate already. I am tired of truck motors in cars...

 

[nutshot]

In the early 90's Hot Rod magazine ran an article comparing a standard push-rod 350 and SOHC chevy 350 with custom heads and same I/E. Guess which made more power. So, pushrods absorb HP because they represent both frictional loss and an increase effort with the added force that they and their lifters put on the rotating assembly.
Any true car-guy knows that the Vette was introduced in 1953 with a "Fireball 6" cylinder motor that was panned by critics for it's low HP and carb issues. After the 283 was implemented, both drivers and magazines such as Car and Driver were less than delighted by the poor handling characteristics of the Corvette. It wasn't until 1963 (1/2) that Chevy introduced the IRS system utilized unchanged until 1982, which made the car corner better than previous models, and the weight distribution reached 49/51, admirable for an American car. So, I am justified in stating that the Corvette only has "sporting" heritage that reaches 40 years in the past.

 

[nutshot]

Originally posted by BQuicksilver




Of yeah, you'll never believe it, but the Z06 IS available everywhere vettes are sold. What in the world gave you the idea they weren't? "Regular" C5's aren't exemplary in any manner? Oh Jesus Have you ever seen a stock vs stock race between a "regular" C5 and any car you mentioned...it's pretty ugly in favor of the vette. We can talk all year about modded vs stock cars, but let's not get into that.

Uhh, no, they aren't. Find a dealership with a Z06 sitting on the lot. In each dealership that I have visited, the Z06 is already sold and there's like 6-8 base models with auto's sitting around. True, in an ideal world I can buy a Z06 from any Chevy dealer, but find a dealer that has one to test-drive... And by exemplary, I mean that the C5 does not exhibit the handling characteristics of a less expensive make, such as a GSX or RX-7 or Supra TT or Skyline R34. Look, let me spend the same money, even half that of the C5 and I will own yer old ass.

 

[BQuicksilver]

Originally posted by nutshot
Sigh... Look, Chevrolet makes a car called the Corvette. It's base model is not stellar. Not to insinuate that the RS or GS Eclipse's are either, but the base model Vette costs more than a GSX, and is not fast enough to account for the price. I have ridden in Vettes, and while fun, they are not noteworthy. True, there is always some limited production model that accounts for like 15% of Vette sales each year that stomps everyone else. But explain to me why Chevrolet is still using pushrods. Or why does Ford get a bum rap for running the same horses in it's DOHC 4.6 as Chevy's OHV 5.7 (Camaro SS)? In my book, making big HP is not all that matters. Take the weight of a Chevy 350 and compare that to a DSM 4g63t. Now compare HP/liter. Why is Corvette so cool? I agree the Z06 is awesome, and takes Zora's technology to the extreme, but innovate already. I am tired of truck motors in cars...

Yes, chevy makes the vette...good start, you have something correct this time. I guess the term "stellar" is pretty subjective, so I can't really say you're wrong. Then again, it sounds kinda odd to hear that vettes are not noteworthy considering you drive a DSM, even a turbo one. Sure DSM's are excellent bang for the buck, but vettes are as well, considering how they stack up against similar-priced competition. Can you name a new car under $45,000 that smokes a vette? By your rationale, I assume you would say a Ferrari Modena is extremely un-noteworthy since it can barely outrun a C5 coupe and is often beaten by a Z06, which costs 1/4 as much? If you care about price/performance, I'd assume you would respect the vette. Oh yeah, you don't have a good reason to dis the vette other than to just be antagonistic

Before I explain why GM uses pushrods, how 'bout you explain what is wrong with them, without just vaguely saying it's old technology since that's just one of those internet gripes that noone really understands well....kinda like complaining about using plastic in the dash of the vette.

Sure the Z06 rocks even though it is only 15% of sales....kinda like the GSX , but you don't hear me putting down DSM's b/c the GSX wasn't a huge seller.

You say big hp is all that matters, then you argue that vettes aren't that special b/c of hp/liter ratios. Make up your mind and stick with a point...if you have one. As for the vette having a truck motor, look at how well it performs and tell me if it matters? BTW, the vette hardly shares a part with truck engines, just the same displacement, although even the block is totally different...just like a Viper (another sucky car..). But who cares, big hp is all that matters...or is it hp/liter?...who knows. And what the hel* does Zora have to do with the Z06? He was dead before the idea for a Z06 came forth. It's clear to me that you have no clue as to what you're talking about.

 

[BQuicksilver]

Originally posted by nutshot
In the early 90's Hot Rod magazine ran an article comparing a standard push-rod 350 and SOHC chevy 350 with custom heads and same I/E. Guess which made more power. So, pushrods absorb HP because they represent both frictional loss and an increase effort with the added force that they and their lifters put on the rotating assembly.
Any true car-guy knows that the Vette was introduced in 1953 with a "Fireball 6" cylinder motor that was panned by critics for it's low HP and carb issues. After the 283 was implemented, both drivers and magazines such as Car and Driver were less than delighted by the poor handling characteristics of the Corvette. It wasn't until 1963 (1/2) that Chevy introduced the IRS system utilized unchanged until 1982, which made the car corner better than previous models, and the weight distribution reached 49/51, admirable for an American car. So, I am justified in stating that the Corvette only has "sporting" heritage that reaches 40 years in the past.

GM uses pushrods b/c they can accomplish the similar hp as DOHC (now, not in the early 90's...get references from THIS decade) at the same rpms (dohc get more hp b/c it can find hp through high rpms) and the pushrod engine is far more compact, and therfore GM can get a 5.7 liter engine in a space that would only hold a 5.0 liter DOHC engine. As a result, going with pushrods means more power in this case, and that's why GM used them. I'm not saying pushrods are better engineering, they just are better in the case of the vette.

I'll accept your arguments in the 2nd paragraph. Still, the vette did race successfully in their first generation. Something no other american or japanese maker could say.

I always see Z06's at the lots here in Indy, and you can always order one from ANY dealer, hench they ARE sold through dealers...I can't believe you're arguing that.

And a C5 WILL outhandle a GSX, and run with a Supra or RX-7 in terms of handling, both of which cost more than vettes back when they were sold. Although a C4 could not outhandle a RX-7 or Supra.

I've said a million times DSM's rule for the money. So do vettes. Can you own my old ass right now?

 

[nutshot]

Okay, I will leave the Corvette issue, as my arguments are still valid against. Push-rod motors are not as efficient in their use of displacement. BMW uses a 3.2 liter inline 6 that offers 333 horses. Honda offers a 2.4 liter 4 cylinder that generates 240 horses. Chevrolet implements a 5.7 liter V8 that tops 405 horses. For those of you keeping score at home, thats 104.06 hp/l for BMW, 100 hp/l for Honda and 71.05 hp/l for Chevy. Hmmm... What seperates these machines? Technology. Dingdingding, we have a winner. Now yers doesn't attain that Z06 level of hp/l, right? But who the hell cares, because you have a heritage to gaze upon, one which, thanks to yer observant reminder, is in no way currently affected by the design team of Zora Duntov. It's not like the vette is in any way similar to the first Sting-ray prototype, wait... Fuel Injected push-rod V8 with an Iron block and rear-mount distributor... Fiberglass body with steel chassis... IRS and IFS... Hmmm...
Look, you like yer Vette, congrats, I think they are goofy and in no way deserving of praise.

 

[DSMraver]

*enter the Evo*

$29k, 271hp (probably underrated), AWD, 1.0g lateral grip.

This will be interesting to see, if the new Evo stomps the c5. Not the z06, since the Evo costs approx. 10k+ less than a REGULAR c5. Not to mention it's got recaro seats, brembos, and AWD. And what if it doesn't beat the c5? You've got 10k left over in mod money, and you'll end up smoking a Z06!

Don't get me wrong, the C5 is a great package, however it still costs ~$40k new, and it's super $$$ to mod. I'd love a Z06, if someone else is paying for it $50k+ new...

 

[nutshot]

Recipe for Corvette-class performance


"The already-legendary LS1 V8 engine shared with the convertible provides 350 horsepower and low-end torque over a broad range for outstanding acceleration and fuel economy for 2003"

"Corvette coupe
starting at
$43,895*"

Okay. Pure http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette/ information. The base C5:

Acceleration Specifications Coupe
0–60 mph, Man. Trans. (sec.) 4.6 (manual), 4.9 (auto)
Braking, 60-0 mph (ft.) 125
Top Speed (kph/mph)(2) 281.6 / 175
1/4-mile manual (sec./mph) 13.22 / 109 mph
Lateral Acceleration (g) 0.93
Coefficient of Drag (cd) 0.29

Those are the unaltered facts. Does any one here think they can build a 13.22 second ride that also holds .93 lateral g's for less than $43,895 on a new car's platform? What would $19,000 (roughly) in mods on a 2002 WRX do? How about a 350Z? Or the IS-300.

 

[nutshot]

Recipe for Corvette-class Performance

Below is 1997 Eclipse GSX specs:
General Information
Price: $--,---
Miles Per Gallon: 23/31 mpg
Curb Weight: 3681 lbs
Layout: Front-Engine/AWD
Transmission: 5-Speed Manual
Engine
Type: Turbocharged Inline-4
Displacement: 1997 cc
Horsepower: 210 bhp @ 6000 rpm
Torque: 214 lb-ft @ 3000 rpm
Redline: 7000 rpm
Performance
0-60 mph: 6.5 sec
0-100 mph: 17.0 sec
Quarter Mile: 15.1 sec @ 93 mph
Skidpad: .84g
Top Speed: 130 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 131 ft
Slalom Speed: 63.1 mph

Unaltered from http://www.fast-autos.net/mitsubishi/eclipsegsxinfo.html

I also found this:
1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse

Its time to move on, I am going to college and I need money. I have put a lot into this car and the person who buys it will be lucky. It has a … more
Color: Charcoal

40000 miles, $15000

Unaltered from http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/...=MIT&address=98177&search_type=used&x=16&y=12

And finally:
http://dsmtuners.com/tuning-guide/2gturbo/
and
http://dsmtuners.com/tuning-guide/2gturbo/suspension.php

Hmmm.... Maybe you should call this thread 'Why I want to blow money on a car that is faster than my GSX and is 3 times the price.'

 

[TSi92]

Originally posted by Hitchhikkr
Um correct me if im wrong guys but I thought the whole idea to the DSMs is that we can make our cars go as fast or faster than a vette for far less money than it costs to actually buy a corvette? Just my 2 cents.

Yes but it still a DSM a vette is a vette.

 

[TSi92]

Originally posted by nutshot
Recipe for Corvette-class performance

1. Produce a mediocre vehicle for 40+ years with limited runs of performance enhancing packages aimed at elevating the status of the vehicle to sports-car.
2. Convince aging Baby-Boomers that this can be the same as the car they salivated over in HS, capable of supplying the testosterone and class they imagined in their 3rd period Algebra course, if they wish to purchase a $45,000 marketing excersize.
3. Enter races that require few (if any) stock components and are not restricted (as the street car is) by the stifling emissions and clean-air junk that was bolted onto a block designed in the early 50's which does not adapt well to the smog-equipment or take advantage of it.
4. Use the same level of sofistication and technology throughout the vehicle, from the push-rods to the horrendous shift-knob to the ass-end of a middle-aged house wife for a tail.

Oh, sorry, I thought you wanted to know how Chevrolet can get away with producing the C5... The Z06 (not available at dealerships) is fast and agile, but the regular (available at dealerships) C5 is not exemplory in any manner, especially against Supra TT's, 3kGT VR-4's, mildly modded GSX's, etc. Mmmm... Pushrods... Wait, that's right, those absorb HP...

Ok I already put you on my idiot list.

 

[TSi92]

Originally posted by nutshot
Sigh... Look, Chevrolet makes a car called the Corvette. It's base model is not stellar. Not to insinuate that the RS or GS Eclipse's are either, but the base model Vette costs more than a GSX, and is not fast enough to account for the price.

You talk like the base model vettes come with a 3800 V6. Guess what, they still run mid-low 13's or even high 12's and they look awesome and they can turn, damn I can go on and on...

I have ridden in Vettes, and while fun, they are not noteworthy.

I say bull$hit. Maybe you have ridden on a beat up 70-something stingray but not on a C5. I used to work at a GM dealer and I drove C5's every now and then, and even though the interior screams cheap-o-plastic the performance is awesome.

True, there is always some limited production model that accounts for like 15% of Vette sales each year that stomps everyone else. But explain to me why Chevrolet is still using pushrods.

Simple, purists will have a hard time accepting a OHC motor in the vette. It happened in '91 when the ZR1 was introduced, it was by far the best vette ever (only surpassed 10 years later by the ZO6) but purists had a hard time accepting the LT5 lotus-engineered DOHC V8 powerplant. The other reason why they still do pushrods... MAD LOW END TORQUE. Simple old and proven technology.

Or why does Ford get a bum rap for running the same horses in it's DOHC 4.6 as Chevy's OHV 5.7 (Camaro SS)?

'99 DOHC NA Cobra DOHC 4.6... about 220 whp ( it was rated at 320 but we all know what happened to ford after that screw up)), mustang GT of the same year SOHC... about 220 whp. '99 SS camaro 5.7 OHV 290-308 whp. It took a phonecall to eaton so ford could make a cobra that was faster than a SS camaro, still just put a vortech on that camaro at like 6 psi and you will be eating '03 cobras for lunch. Same horse on the 4.6 NA? I don't think so.

In my book, making big HP is not all that matters. Take the weight of a Chevy 350 and compare that to a DSM 4g63t. Now compare HP/liter. Why is Corvette so cool? I agree the Z06 is awesome, and takes Zora's technology to the extreme, but innovate already. I am tired of truck motors in cars...

In my book I think you're an idiot. a chevy 350 might be heavy (the ls1 is all alluminum, I'm pretty sure it's not that much heavier than the iron 4G63 block) But even though they are heavier, I don't see any 2000 hp 4G63's out there, but sure there is plenty of 2000 hp sbc's out there. You keep on getting off on hp/l numbers and see that low tech 50 hp/l passing right by you.

About truck motors on cars... I guess in your book the Viper sucks too huh.

 

[TSi92]

Originally posted by nutshot
Okay, I will leave the Corvette issue, as my arguments are still valid against. Push-rod motors are not as efficient in their use of displacement. BMW uses a 3.2 liter inline 6 that offers 333 horses. Honda offers a 2.4 liter 4 cylinder that generates 240 horses. Chevrolet implements a 5.7 liter V8 that tops 405 horses. For those of you keeping score at home, thats 104.06 hp/l for BMW, 100 hp/l for Honda and 71.05 hp/l for Chevy. Hmmm... What seperates these machines? Technology. Dingdingding, we have a winner. Now yers doesn't attain that Z06 level of hp/l, right? But who the hell cares, because you have a heritage to gaze upon, one which, thanks to yer observant reminder, is in no way currently affected by the design team of Zora Duntov. It's not like the vette is in any way similar to the first Sting-ray prototype, wait... Fuel Injected push-rod V8 with an Iron block and rear-mount distributor... Fiberglass body with steel chassis... IRS and IFS... Hmmm...
Look, you like yer Vette, congrats, I think they are goofy and in no way deserving of praise.

Let me say this just once. Low displacement engines will always be able to make more specific output, the laws of phisics say so. Second (and this kinda contradicts my previous statement) tell me of a OHC engine making over 8000 hp. Yes those hemi based top fuel dragsters are old school OHV technology but they make so much power, that it can't be measured but it's estimated that they make well over 8000 hp (and about 900hp loss in the parasitic positive displacement blower). Wanna talk hp/l 8.0 8000+ hp, you do the math.

 

[nutshot]

How could I not see all the splendor of a Vette? Oohhh.. I fear their low revs and frictional losses. Oohhh.. You've driven a C5 and it was a blast? BS! Talk to a Camaro/Mustang owner and get the same response that you cheese dicks keep feeding me. (whining) but it's a vette, they have heritage, blah blah blah... Give me one reason to make a sport car with low end torque in place of high end horses. Truck motors are torquey, I freely admit that. When driving a sport car, you want revs, period. Next I'll be hearing how an automatic multiplies your torque through fluid transfer... I have ridden in an early 90's LT1. Whoopty. It was fat, soft and cheesy. The next Vette will be DOHC? Gasp! But why do that, it will sacrifice all the valuable torque? And no, it's not because they have more space underhood, or that room was an issue in the firstplace (if it was, why would formula cars run DOHC v's?). Look, you like Vettes, you like Bose, you like any display of archaic American 'technology', fine. Learn to find comfort in modern advances, such as cd's, microwave ovens, DOHC, etc. It is good for you.:laugh:

 

[nutshot]

Originally posted by BQuicksilver


You say big hp is all that matters, then you argue that vettes aren't that special b/c of hp/liter ratios. Make up your mind and stick with a point...if you have one. As for the vette having a truck motor, look at how well it performs and tell me if it matters? BTW, the vette hardly shares a part with truck engines, just the same displacement, although even the block is totally different...just like a Viper (another sucky car..). But who cares, big hp is all that matters...or is it hp/liter?...who knows. And what the hel* does Zora have to do with the Z06? He was dead before the idea for a Z06 came forth. It's clear to me that you have no clue as to what you're talking about.

Feel free to highlight the quote you are using in reference to "You say big hp is all that matters, then you argue that vettes aren't that special b/c of hp/liter ratios. Make up your mind and stick with a point...if you have one." Not only did I not make this statement, I made the opposite statement.
Any motor which utilizes push-rods is engineered for torque, not HP, feel free to show me any evidence to the contrary.
Since I have no clue as to what I am saying, feel free to clarify the above paragraph taken in context directly from your post. Your blasse attitude and forthright neglect of relevant facts speaks well of your competance.:laugh: I own yer old ass.

 

[BQuicksilver]

Tsi92: Thanks for amplyfying my sentiment. I think nutshot's oficially made my "regurgitates every uneducated internet rumor known to man list". I just wish he'd come clean as to what his issue is. Actually, I just wish that he could go back through my previous posts and even attempt to answer the questions I've directly asked him (knowing he can't).

I think we all know that Chevy doesn't go for max hp/liter. And frankly I could care less. Hp/liter has never once made any car go fast...total hp is what makes a car move..and the vette does just fine in that regard. I can respect engineering cars for hp/liter, especially in racing leagues where displacement islimited...but at the end of the day if car A has more hp and torque than car B I'll be in car A, and that's all I care about. I'll leave the hp my car puts down out of it, that's between me and my tuner. As for comparing prices on the cars, I've always said that DSM's are the best bang for the buck there is...period. If I was on a little tighter budget I can assure you that's what I'd be in right now. In my case, I chose to start out with a pricier platform for the extra features and technology you get from the start. That's just my opinion. Sure vettes cost a lot more than DSM's, but if you can afford one who cares. I'm not going to knock Bill Gates for being ripped off with Ferrari's markup since it doesn't hurt his pocketbook. As for Zora having nothin to do with the Z06, he didn't have a say in on single part. Sure some designers followed tradition and kept using fiberglass, 4 tailights, etc. But they also used round wheels on the C5 too...that doesn't mean the caveman who invented it was important in the corvette design.

DSMraver: It'll definitely be cool to see the Evo over here. Worthy competition always makes life more interesting. Then again, it'll have to face up to the C6 by the time it gets here. 435hp 3000lbs will be stiff competition.

Nutshot: Again, who cares about lower revs in the vette (by what, 1000?) if it's putting down better times and numbers. I love the heritage of my vette, but have you heard me say that my car's better because it's a vette? No. The car still needs to perform in order to earn that heritage...and that's what it has done for 50 years. And when are you going to realize that it only shares displacement (not iron block) with trucks. That is not a truck engine. I sure hope you can se beyond that. Heck, even if they took a truck engine and put it in the vette, if it hits 60 in 4.6 seconds I could care less. Performance=sports car.

If you'd read the book "all corvettes are red", you would know why GM chose pushrods for the vette. Look under a C5 someday at the oilpan. It is extremely flat and bizarre-looking, because the motor was almost too tall for the hood, and they had to engineer a special flat oilpan to shoehorn the engine in. DOHC engines are much taller than pushrods b/c of the cams on top and therefore would not fit under the C5 hood because engine height was a major issue in design. Please stop acting like you know what you're talking about.

Do formula cars use DOHC? You might want to look that one up.
PS: they don't

FWIW: I hate Bose and wish GM would change their thoughts on using it. Then again, I'm really not too concerned about the stereo in a sports car. Is it light? That's all I care.

Feel free to highlight the quote you are using in reference to "You say big hp is all that matters, then you argue that vettes aren't that special b/c of hp/liter ratios. Make up your mind and stick with a point...if you have one." Not only did I not make this statement, I made the opposite statement.

Yes, you did make both statements...which is why we found it funny.

Any motor which utilizes push-rods is engineered for torque, not HP, feel free to show me any evidence to the contrary.

Evidence=those four tail lights you saw last itme you raced one. It takes hp to go fast. I love torque as well, since that's what you 'feel' as you accelerate. See, some cars actually have both.

I really would love to see you go back and try to answer the questions from this and previous posts, then maybe you'd understand how foolish "or owned" you look right now.

 

[nutshot]

You seem to have asked me what race series relies on street legal rides... Hmmm, WRC? No, I said that HP/L is what matters, not max HP because HP/L will dictate the weight of a vehicle. Yes, push rods absorb HP for the same reasons that I have highlighted. No, there is no benefit to puchasing a base model Vette over a modded DSM, unless you count the factory warranty:laugh: . I am done. Good luck wit yer Vette, I hope you find those levels of testosterone you were looking for.

 

[TSi92]

Originally posted by nutshot
How could I not see all the splendor of a Vette? Oohhh.. I fear their low revs and frictional losses. Oohhh.. You've driven a C5 and it was a blast? BS! Talk to a Camaro/Mustang owner and get the same response that you cheese dicks keep feeding me.

Yes OHV engines have more frictional losses because of more valvetrain mass (pushrods). But you rag on vettes like they are POS. Sorry but high revs don't make a sports car. It's how it performs, I guess a S2000 is a world class sports car in your book because it has a 9000 rpm redline The C5's a drove pulled very hard from idle all the way to redline. Sure they rev lower than other engines but with the proper mods they can rev pretty damn high. Ever heard how a OHV V8 sounds at 9000 rpm's?

(whining) but it's a vette, they have heritage, blah blah blah... Give me one reason to make a sport car with low end torque in place of high end horses.

Well, the vette has both torque and high end horses and when you modify it they both go up, sure you will always sacrifice a bit of low end for high end but just because it doesn't have a 9000 rpm redline doesn't make it a less of a sports car. That's a very stupid statement.

Truck motors are torquey, I freely admit that. When driving a sport car, you want revs, period.

In your little 10000 rpm world it seems that revs defines a sports car. To me a sports car is one that can accelerate along with the best can stop and corner like the best and it looks like the best, and the vette fits right there.

Next I'll be hearing how an automatic multiplies your torque through fluid transfer... I have ridden in an early 90's LT1. Whoopty. It was fat, soft and cheesy.

Ok, first you said you rode on a C5 now it was on a LT1 early 90's vette? Make up your mind buddy.

The next Vette will be DOHC? Gasp! But why do that, it will sacrifice all the valuable torque? And no, it's not because they have more space underhood, or that room was an issue in the firstplace (if it was, why would formula cars run DOHC v's?). Look, you like Vettes, you like Bose, you like any display of archaic American 'technology', fine. Learn to find comfort in modern advances, such as cd's, microwave ovens, DOHC, etc. It is good for you.:laugh:

Yes a DOHC vette is very much welcome in my book (right along with the ZR1) and DOHC and new technology is good, but don't rag on one of the greatest cars in the world just because it has a OHV engine.

 

[crashed97tsi]

Originally posted by nutshot
You seem to have asked me what race series relies on street legal rides... Hmmm, WRC? No, I said that HP/L is what matters, not max HP because HP/L will dictate the weight of a vehicle. Yes, push rods absorb HP for the same reasons that I have highlighted. No, there is no benefit to puchasing a base model Vette over a modded DSM, unless you count the factory warranty:laugh: . I am done. Good luck wit yer Vette, I hope you find those levels of testosterone you were looking for.

Ok but here' the thing, you said before that honda made 240 out of 2.4 liters(i thought it was 2.0, were talking about the s2k right?). That's respectable, but unfortunately, as with any honda, it's missing the torque. Ok so take your 240 horses with no torque and run it against a base vette. The vette will come out on top. The amount of litres you have helps alot when your going hp/litre.

I love vettes and i love dsm's. Hell, I sat in a nice, blue zo6 today at the phillie auto show. It was probably one of my favorite cars there. The point is that your comparing a sport compact to one of the last american v8 sport cars. Sure you can make the dsm as fastt, but owning a vette obviously has its perks.

 

[GaRn]

Originally posted by crashed97tsi


Ok but here' the thing, you said before that honda made 240 out of 2.4 liters(i thought it was 2.0, were talking about the s2k right?). That's respectable, but unfortunately, as with any honda, it's missing the torque. Ok so take your 240 horses with no torque and run it against a base vette. The vette will come out on top. The amount of litres you have helps alot when your going hp/litre.

I love vettes and i love dsm's. Hell, I sat in a nice, blue zo6 today at the phillie auto show. It was probably one of my favorite cars there. The point is that your comparing a sport compact to one of the last american v8 sport cars. Sure you can make the dsm as fastt, but owning a vette obviously has its perks.

couldnt have said it better.. also, in japan, i believe the s2k has 250 hp.. they always downgrade USDM ####!