Rattling noise when clutch is not engaged

[GSXlaunch]

Can anyone creat and post a sound or vid file of what their experiencing? IMO, a rattling is much different and more severe then a chattering noise. I have a digital camera and can easily make a quick 10-20 second vid with sound but I dont have anywhere to host it. I also think this would be a big help in determining if the car should continue to be driven or not. Thanks

 

[Necromancer69]

I had the same problem with my 95 eclipse gs-t. However, it got worse and started doing it through the gears. It had nothing to do with the clutch as it was still gripping. I broke down and took it to a transmission shop. when they got it all apart and everything it turned out to be a bearing in my transmission. I dunno ya'lls might be different but that was my experience. oh yea, the input shaft bearing to be exact.

 

[GSXlaunch]

Just curious as to how they knew it was the input shaft bearing? What are the symptoms? Did you have a chatter or more of a metal or metal rattling sound. Is there a way to check the input shaft with the tranny off the car in my own garage? I am intrigued by this since I had this chatter (althought not as loud) before I went to the new set up as well. I figured it was my old slipping clutch. I dont have a clue as to how many miles the tranny had since it was swapped off from a 92 AWD before I bought my 90. Thanks

 

[90AWDTalon]

It is not a rattling noise...the only way I can explain it is if you take a light grit sand paper and start polishing/sanding a metal surface with short quick strokes.

This is different than the noise I'm getting, mine is a definate rattle or chatter. I have the Spec stage 3 clutch, which is a carbon puck disk, so this may be the difference in sound from yours. I don't remeber it being this loud in the past, also I can't hear it when there is a moderate or heavy load on the car, only at a light cruise can I hear it. I can't say if this is because of wind noise and exhaust noise covering the chatter or if it goes away.

The other thing that I noticed last night was that when I pushed the clutch in, the revs would drop about 4-500rpms. It was idling near 1500rpms and I am guessing this is from the 8lb flywheel and when I push the clutch in it creates some load on the flywheel so the revs drop to about 1000-900rpms.

I've never had this happen while idleing, but coming to a down hill stop at a stop sign near my house the rpms drop so low that the car almost dies, it actually dies once in a while. I have the ACT lightweight flywheel. Although I can't remember for sure, but I think this happened with the stock flywheel also.

I had the same problem with my 95 eclipse gs-t. However, it got worse and started doing it through the gears. It had nothing to do with the clutch as it was still gripping. I broke down and took it to a transmission shop. when they got it all apart and everything it turned out to be a bearing in my transmission. I dunno ya'lls might be different but that was my experience. oh yea, the input shaft bearing to be exact.

Did you have any other issue's than just noise. Mine still shifts great and drives great, only problems are this noise and phantom knock, which was back to normal today.

 

[GSXlaunch]

I hope someone can explain this one to me...about ten minutes ago I went out to check the position of the clutch fork in relation to the square hole in the tranny (facing the front of the car). It was not in the center. I figured I'd loosen the slave cylinder bolts just enough to still be able to push the clutch in to try to get into the gears while the car was idling. I cranked it over and to my surprise there was no chatter whatsoever! The only thing was that when I put it in gear it sounded like a higher pitch "shhhhhhhshhhhhhhh" sound but it went into gear. I thought about it for a minute and figured I'd try to put two thin washers on the slave cylinder side of the two bolts or basically moving it back just a notch towards the driver's side. I hand tightened the bolts and cranked it over. The result was very little chatter (about 80% less) and now I could engage all the gears with the car idling with no problems at all. I am still not sure what this means. Would someone else who is having the chattering problem care to try putting two washers on the slave cylinder bolts?

On a side note, I decided to peel back the rubber boot on my slave cylinder rod and clutch fluid actually poured out. I beleive this means I need a new slave cylinder. Can someone back this up? Thanks

 

[90AWDTalon]

So if I understand correctly what you did was the opposite of the taboo speed shop slave cylinder rod. Which almost makes sense because they put a longer rod in to make sure the clutch dissengages all the way. But when I was thinking about this it sounds like the opposite of the problem we are having. My thinking is that if the clutch wasn't dissengaging all the way why would the noise stop when pushing the clutch pedal in. So possiblely we have the exact opposite problem, the clutch isn't fully engaging, so by moving the slave cylinder your ensureing the clutch fork has enough movement to fully engage the clutch. Does this sound like it makes sense to you?

Now the one concern against the theroy I have is in my case; I've been driving around like this for about 5 months and the clutch has never slipped on me. But I don't know if this alone rules this theroy out, my spec stage III clutch is rated for 415 ftlbs. I'm makeing an estimated 75 - 100 ftlbs less than this rating, so maybe hits engaging enough to hold my current power level.

I think I will try this and see what happens, what size washer did you use?

 

[laserspeeddemon]

I'm suprised you guys missed this thread.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133330

Go to a post 15 for a results of what happened.

 

[GSXlaunch]

90AWDTalon...I dont know. I am still thinking it is a disengagement issue. Anyone feel free to correct me here...but by moving the slave cylinder back a tiny bit (towards the driver's side) the clutch fork and tob are moving the opposite direction away from the pressure plate. So in my case, before adding the washers the tob was still making contact with the pressure plate even with the clutch pedal in the full upright position. This was surely causing the noise I was hearing. I am getting ready to order a new slave cylinder with in the next hour. I will first install the new SC with out any washers to see what happens. By the way, the washers I used were about the same thickness as a penny or maybe a hair thinner. I know it sounds crazy but by moving the SC back that tiny bit made a drastic change in the chattering. I am guessing with two washers the chatter would be gone completely. Feel free to try using a pair of washers there. I am very curious to see if this helps any in your case. I would check to see if your SC is shot by moving the rod boot back to see if fluid has been leaking in there. If so get a new one....

http://www.plymouthlaser.com/slave2.htm

laserspeeddemon - I read that post and my thinking is that if it was the input shaft the noise would not go away (completely) when the clutch is pushed in as it does in my case. The two dowel pins on either side of the tranny were there when I installed it. I even made some guide rods out of a pair of head bolts off my old Conquest engine that I screwed into the two upper tranny bolt holes in the block. It was still a bi*** to get the tranny on by myself from under the car...if you can imagen a person in the fetal position with a 100lb peice of metal 6 inches from his face, you'd get the picture. I was very surprised to learn that there were only three main bolts that hold the tranny and one smaller 12mm on the block side. The tranny mount should add some support however. I will go in there tonight to check the gaps between tranny and engine but I would think there would be other symptoms of a cocked tranny. For one, the starter would probly make some grinding or screaching noise when engaged. The clutch would be mushy since the tob would be cocked against the PP which may even be why the PP fingers end up pushed in or pushed out too far. I am not ready to give up on ACT yet, but I see where you guys are coming from. If you pay $400 for something it better perform.

 

[Drifte]

i have the stock flywheel, had it stepped. I've been told and experienced a car with a spring missing from the clutch. its engagement was sometimes good, sometimes bad. it would be pretty random, so im wondering if i have a good clutch, but its just not fully dis-engaging.

 

[AWDgsx905speed]

Do you guys know if the pivot ball is shimmed at all?

 

[GSXlaunch]

My pivot ball is shimmed with a head bolt washer - same thickness as a nickle or maybe a tad bit thicker. I was under the impression this was a must do with the act 2600...I am now questioning that. By moving the SC out some I am counteracting the shimmed pivot ball deal. My understanding was that the shimmed pb was to help with engagement issues not disengagement as is the issue I am having. I can say that just in that quick test I gave it yesterday by adding a washer to the bolts on the SC side - it seems to help quite a bit. I was able to get into all the gears with out any grinding at all. Keep in mind my car is still up in air so I have not driven it yet. This is why I was asking someone else who is having similar issues to try it out on the street. My car will not be ready for a week or so.

 

[90AWDTalon]

but by moving the slave cylinder back a tiny bit (towards the driver's side) the clutch fork and tob are moving the opposite direction away from the pressure plate. So in my case, before adding the washers the tob was still making contact with the pressure plate even with the clutch pedal in the full upright position. This was surely causing the noise I was hearing.

This is exaclty what I was trying to say, I think I'm just using the meaning of engage and dissengage backwards from how your are. I consider the clutch engaged when it is pressed against the flywheel and dissengaged when the clutch has no contact with flywheel.
Clutch pedal all the way out = engaged
Clutch pedal all the way down = dissengaged
Sorry for the confussion.

 

[90AWDTalon]

I just tried the shims, it seems like all it did was put me back to where I was before adjusting the master cylinder rod yesterday.

After doing this I was still trying to figure out what the noise was. I started pokeing around with a screw driver feeling for vibration's. The only spot I could feel anything was right on top of the tranny, the vibration felt like it matched the rattle-chatter I was hearing. I couldn't feel anything on the bell housing or block. It might be my tranny, it still sifts perfect. I'm going to try some BG syncrosift some time in the next two or three weeks and see if that helps. Also I need to redu this test with someone pushing down on the clutch, see if it changes anything vibration wise.

 

[GSXlaunch]

Cool...now is anyone else willing to try the washers on the slave side of its bolts? I am gonna be outta town on business the next couple of days so I will not be able to resume "testing" until I get back Friday night. Where are the mods...the gurus that know this stuff like the top side of their beer guts? Their had to be some people that were willing to try the pivot ball shim at first right? If there was a way to adjust the sc both backward and forward that would be best. I guess one could shim or grind off some metal on each side (bolt holes) on the sc itself; say like an 1/8 or a 1/16. Then it may be possible to adjust it by adding/removing washers??? If anyone has tried this please chime in...if anyone can tell me why these are rediculous ideas please do so with reasoning. I need to cure this black cloud of ideas in my head.

 

[GSXlaunch]

90AWD I posted before I read your last post - sorry. It sounds like your slave rod needs to be pushed out more towards the tranny, not back the way mine is going. On top of the rubbing/chattering sound your also getting a rattling and a vibration. I would look into what laserspeeddemon said. Perhaps your tranny is cocked just a minute amount causing all kinds a noises/vibrations. Did you check your slave rod for leakage? Maybe you can try putting a dime or something between the slave rod and the rod "pit" on the fork. Just with the car in idle...see if that gets rid on some of the chatter. If that helps you might benefit from a longer rod.

 

[90AWDTalon]

It sounds like your slave rod needs to be pushed out more towards the tranny, not back the way mine is going.

No, thats for if the clutch isn't fully dissengaging when you push down on the pedal. The problem I'm having is with the clutch engaged, clutch pedal out.

Did you check your slave rod for leakage?

Slave cylinder looks good, no sign of leaking.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Acutally if you look at the picture, there are 4 bolts that hold the tranny in, and one small 12mm bolt, that actually holds the heat shield to the tranny. Look below. The white circles are the four bolts, that hold this sucker on. The green circle is where the 12mm bolt holds the heat shield to the tranny, the purple circle are the starter bolt holes.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[brian524]

Ok, now lookin at this picture, laserspeeddemon said that the tech from ACT said all of the ACT clutch failures were from improper install from not having the dowell pins lined upped. My question is, How the #### can you even put the tranny back on without lining the dowell pins up Its either there in alignment with the dowell pins or there not, you can easily see when a tranny lines back up in its original spot, how would this lead to having tranny misalligned a few milimeters (so says the ACT tech). If this is such a problem and ACT's reasoning for clutch hub failure, why is there not a HUUUUGE warning in the install instructions or manufactures warranty statement stating that dowell pins must be properly alligned? MY clutch is REALLY starting to piss me off. Its ok soemtimes. PERFECT, no rattle, no vibration, nothing, but sometimes it shakes and ratteles and grinds so bad you can hear it outside the car with car just idling..

 

[GSXlaunch]

"No, thats for if the clutch isn't fully dissengaging when you push down on the pedal. The problem I'm having is with the clutch engaged, clutch pedal out."

Sorry bro, this is completely my fault. When I say disengage I mean in regards to the tob in relation to the pressure plate. So, clutch pedal up = tob disengaged from plate...I am backwards on that one sorry.

laserspeeddemon...that is pretty much what I meant. Four bolts total that actually hold the trans to the block...each on circled in white. Starting from the front of the car and going counter clockwise - three 14mm and one 12mm that bolts in from the block side. Correct me if I am wrong. I was expecting there to be at minimum six 14mm bolts going in from the tranny side.

brian524...I think the ACT tech meant that some people re-install the tranny even though they are missing the dowel pins. IMO, the issues you have seem to be slave or master cylinder related.

 

[90AWDTalon]

Well what ever mine is just broke. I was driving driving home up a slight hill. I noticed the noise getting much loader. At the same time my phantom knock went through the roof, and letting off the throttle and then back on did nothing to get rid of the phantom knock like usual. Then I heard something break and then the rest of the way home it sounded like some one had dumped a bunch of gravel in either my engine or tranny, the tranny still shifted fine no notchyness or grinding into gear. At first I thought it was my engine and that I had mistakenly thought the noise was my tranny. When I got home I pulled the valve cover off to see if there was anything obvious in there. There wasn't. Next I pulled the spark plugs and looked down the holes with a light, everything looked good down there. Next I stuck a long screw driver in each spark plug whole and spun the engine by hand, everything seemed fine. And then the last thing I did was spin the engine with the starter, the motor spun easily, with no noise. Now I'm leaning back towards the tranny, I need to do some more test to make sure exaclty what the problem is. I'm planning on disabling the clutch safty switch and turning it over with the starter with the tranny in nuetral and the clutch engaged. What else can I do with out tearing the tranny off to test? I want to make sure I'm headed in the right direction before doing any major dissasembly.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

If you can get it into gear with motor off, try putting the car into gear with the motor running. If it the same "gravel" sound or it grinds horribly, its your clutch.

 

[90AWDTalon]

I just went and started it back up. Doesn't matter about if the clutch is engaged or dissengaged anymore. Now its a more distinct clank, clank, clank in time with rpm's. I'm back to thinking engine and the noise was either fooling me or there's something wrong with my clutch or tranny also. Anyone have any idea's, sound like something fixable or do I now need a new engine.

 

[GSXlaunch]

What condition is your transfer case in? Seems unusual that the clutch go bad yet you can still get into all the gears with out grinding. You could jack up all 4 sides and actually try to engage first and letting all four tires turn...if you get the gravel sound try pulling the t-case off and doing it again. You'd have to pull it off to get the tranny off anyway. IMO, it sounds like the tranny will have to come off.

 

[GSXlaunch]

Try to pin point the origin of the knock...block or drive train. If its engine knock, try pulling off one spark plug boot at a time...if the knock/clank goes away or quiets down with a particular cylinder you may have found the issue. If thats the case, follow it up with a compression test.

 

[90AWDTalon]

I figured out what the problem was today. Spun bearing on cylinder number 2. I put a new engine in two weeks ago and just got around to tearing the old one down today.