rally car questions

[soccer_freak]

I have several questions that I want to ask but I want to start with one simple question.

What year of first gen models would be best to turn into a rally car? I am new to the DSM arena of things but I am very familiar with other domestic and imports.

Basicly what I want to do is start with an older dsm and mod/tune the crap outa it for a rally type environment. I refuse to do a N/A or FWD/RWD as I could use a civic or rx-7 or miata. I'm not worried about which looked the best or anything like that. I'm looking for which year had a more reliable engine, which year was lightest, and so on. I'm thinking about a 1990-ish model but then again, like I said, I don't know much about the DSM arena. Any input is appreciated.

Thanks

 

[greenmachine97]

If i were you i would go with an early 1992 AWD Laser. You could get an AWD talon or an Eclipse GSX (pretty much all the same), but typically the laser has been proven to be the lightest of the 3 DSM's. Make sure to get one WITHOUT a sunroof too. Early 1992 would be the best year to get. you will have to do some reading about what this means, but in early 1992 the engine was a 6-bolt engine , and the rear differential was a 4-bolt. again, in order to understand this you will have to read. but basically, the 6bolt engine is usually stronger and more reliable than the 7bolt engine. and the 4bolt differential is much stronger than the 3 bolt diff, which was offerd in the 90 and 91. but the first generation ranges from 1990 - 1994. but the early 1992 laser is the most desirable. if i were you, i would buy a 1992 laser with a blown motor, and replace the pistons with 2g pistons and use the 1g rods. keep the 1g head, and use a 2g throttle body elbow. we DSM folks call this a budget rebuild, or junkyard rebuild. it will yield the best results for the least amount of cash. good luck and if you have any questions feel free to ask.

 

[soccer_freak]

??? EWW!! . I've never been a chrysler fan, but it's all the same just different badges. so the 92 lasers were turbo and AWD. Depending on mileage how much should I look to spend on one? How much should I look to spend on a "broken" one? is there anything I should look for to tell me NOT to buy that particular one? I'm assuming that somewhere in the car it's stamped what year and month it was made - where is that? and finally, I'd assume that parts are easy to fins for those? Is that a correct assumption?

thanks for your help

 

[greenmachine97]

not all the 92 lasers were AWD-T. It was an option though. So if you are looking for one, just make sure it is AWD. cause if it is AWD, then it is turbo, no questions about it. But i am with you man, = . But hey, if you are going to be stripping the interior or whatever anyways for rally, the weight difference wouldnt be an issue anyways, you could definately go with a GSX, or a Tsi AWD. Both of those would be perfectly awsome too. But the only things really to look for would be to make sure it is a 6-bolt engine, just ask the guy who owns it, he should know for sure, but all of the turbo engines from 90-early 92 are 6bolt engines. and yes, parts for these cars are extremely easy to find. and for being as cramped as they enginebays are, they really arent hard to work on either. to get you started here are a few links to help you out in your DSM modifying stages. Read through as much of this as you can, it will help you so much! good luck, and keep posting any questions if you have them

http://members.shaw.ca/costall/1000Q/

http://www.dsmreviews.com/index2.php3

http://www.vfaq.net = great, and most helpful website

http://mw.dsm.org/tips.asp

http://www.94tsiawd.com/Goodwill.html

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclcatalogindex.htm

http://www.turboeclipse.com/wtf/

http://members.shaw.ca/dsm.1000q/Engineprimer/

http://www.dsmtuners.com/tuning-guide/1gturbo/stage1power.php

http://www.dsmtuners.com/tuning-guide/1gturbo/suspension.php

http://www.machv.com/turbetsuswhe.html

http://www.machv.com/stagei.html

And here is a little info on rallycross, that i read about when i was considering getting into it.

Rallycross is for the average joe that can't afford things like fully prepping a car, and subsequently wadding it up in a ditch, or wrapping it around a tree. All you need is your street car, a helmet, and $30 for entry fees. We make the courses as easy on the cars as possible. See www.rallycross.us for info/pics/schedule/etc...
The TSI does well, but you should keep in mind that this sport puts more emphasis on the driver than the car.

Next step up is ClubRally. Here you need a prepared car, cage, co-driver, rally-computer, etc... This is wide open racing on closed public roads. If you're frugal you can get by with about $1500 per event. The closest event is the 100 Acre Wood Rally. It's held around the Mark Twain National Forest, about 2 hrs southwest of St. Louis. Poke around on www.specialstage.com and www.scca.org for information on ClubRally. I have a good friend of mine building a VW Golf for ClubRally. MAYBE it'll be done by the time 100AW rolls around again.

Above ClubRally is ProRally. You need some decent ClubRally results to move up to ProRally. ProRally is what you see on SpeedChannel sometimes. Not quite as classy as WRC, but as close as you're going to get in the US.

Definitely read the rules before you start building a car. For instance, if you run a turbo car in Clubrally, you must run a 34mm restrictor. This could definitely effect your choice of components for an engine build.

As for recommendations. Most suggest staying away from a Turbo AWD car for your first real rally car. Find a rallyist that's upgrading and buy his old FWD car. This way you get a car that's already sorted out, and one that you have no emotional attachement to. Do this Because:

1. You will be able to buy one cheaper than you can build it.

2. It's very likely that your first car will end up wadded up in a ditch, so you want the least amount of $$$ and heartache invested in that one.

3. When you do have an 'off' you're far less likely to kill yourself and others in a slow low powered FWD than in a Fast Turbo AWD.

4. Power and AWD will teach you bad habits. If you can learn to make a weak FWD car fast, you will be much faster when you graduate to Power and AWD.

Look for used rally cars on specialstage and www.rallyclassified.com

If you really want to start ahead of the game, attend a rally school like www.team-oneil.com . It's expensive, but you'll save money in the long run by destroying fewer cars.

A rally computer is basically a very very accurate odometer. Most also have all sorts of nifty timers, clocks, and secondary odos, but it all boils down to just an accurate odo. In a rally car it's generally driven by the wheel that will experience the least spin or sometimes off the driveshaft. Instructions in rally are given as a mileage from an odo reset point, So the co-driver depends on the rally computer to find his place in the notes, place on the stage, rally time, stage time, etc...

With the SCCA events, you know the roads are closed to the public, you know you've got other competitors, spectators, sweep cars, an air-evac team, the support of the local police, forest service, and a network of HAM radio operators watching your back too. You also get routebooks, times, and can compare yourself to the top competiton available.

Rallycross IS something that you could MAYBE do with a couple friends if you had the motivation and some space to do it. I grew up on a farm, and could go screw around in the fields with cars/trucks whenever I wanted to. It's fun, but it's meaningless and gets boring quick. I like having competition. Equally prepped cars running on an equal course with a good timing and scoring system.

I like standing in grid after a run and discussing the best line through turns 4 and 5 with the guy next to me. Last event we had a big muddy spot followed by a 90 left. You had to slow down to a crawl to keep from understeering right into the cone. We had a debate going in grid wether it was smarter to slow down and not get the 2sec penalty for the cone, or if you would lose less time to blast through there and take the penalty. It's the social event as much as the driving that makes it fun.

 

[soccer_freak]

holy - information batman!!!!

That's exactly what I'm looking for. The only problem is that I'm already used to an AWD car that is VERY sticky to the road. I don't wanna say what kind of car it is cuz it might be blasphemous on this board. But let's just say I'm already used to AWD and roughly 175HP with the same number of torque. I looked around and it seems that the gsx or TSi AWD are both 195HP - am I correct in that? 20 more ponies isn't THAT much of a difference. My current car I've had in a couple auto-cross event and I know exactly what you mean by

"It's the social event as much as the driving that makes it fun."

It's always beena dream of mine to rally a car and I'm willing to do pretty much whatever it takes.

I've heard from some people that the DSMs are vry prone to tranny breakage. Is that true? Is that part of why you said to go with the 4 bolt? I still have yet to read up on wqhat that means. If that is true - what should I be cautious of?

 

[greenmachine97]

Well yes, DSM trannys have a tendency to break, but that is only because the users (us) beat the hell out of them on a daily basis. and i reccomend the 4bolt rearend because the 3bolts seem to break pretty easily. Yea, i took alot of time to type all of that and find all of those links because, like you i have a passion/dream to enter in some rally races myself. i need to get a good garage and i will eventually start building my car also. that is a dream of mine also. So best of luck to you. But again, like is said, just take as much time as you can to read those links and you will learn so much about these cars. I take it that in the past you haved owned a WRX. that is cool, i dont hate on them at all. If you are used to that you should be perfectly fine going with an awd dsm. Keep the questions coming though if you have them. and yes, 195 crank horsepower is the rating for the 1st gen dsms. but like i said, if you use the higher compresssion pistons from a 2g, and whatnot, it is so terribly easy to get these cars to 300+hp. serisously, once you get into it it is actualyl kinda funny how easy it is.

 

[wtifft]

holy - information batman!!!!

That's exactly what I'm looking for. The only problem is that I'm already used to an AWD car that is VERY sticky to the road.

I agree with everything greenmachine97 said.

A word of warning, though. You may be accustomed to driving AWD on the road (tarmac), but it's a completely different world on gravel. Unless you're accustomed to setting up for a turn (left foot braking, forcing oversteer, controlling understeer, etc.) you'll find gravel quite a bit different. And a small mistake at 80 mph when you're 10 feet from a tree that won't budge can ruin a perfect day.

And always remember, if 2 wheels can break loose, so can 4. And they'll do it at a most inconvenient time.

 

[greenmachine97]

Yea, but that is why you would start off in RallyCross, and eventually you will be able to handle the car enough to enter in some club rally, and pro rally But that is the idea of rally cross, so you can get used to gravel without worrying about hitting a tree. the only obstacle you could worry about would be a road cone. you should be fine, but keep the questions coming

 

[wortdog]

I rallycrossed my Talon twice and broke something relatively minor each time, once I busted about half the fins off of my radiator with mud from my front wheel. I broke a shifter cable the other time I ran it.

On the plus side, I won my class the second time. I think the thing seems like the most natural, well balanced car I've ever driven on gravel. You brake pretty hard into the corner and trailbrake a bit through turn-in. The rear end comes out just the right amount right after turn-in, you wait for the pivoting car to point where you want it, you correct a little bit, jump on the gas, and then the car understeers out of the corner.

I'd love to build a clubrally car when I get out of college. Someday.

 

[02BLUR]

I would never use a DSM for rally. I think if you busted something - like an A-Arm, I feel it would be hard to find parts! I've seen several pics of rally DSM's, but I would be pretty nervous about it...

 

[wortdog]

You must be joking about it being hard to find parts . . . anybody seriously clubrallying a DSM is going to have a few parts cars sitting around, since you can find them for less than $500 all over the place.

 

[soccer_freak]

good stuff guys...

I don't know if any of you have noticed where I'm from. I'm used to a BUTT-LOAD of snow in the winter. I even went as far as driving an entire winter on summer tires (not by choice)in my AWD! I'm no stranger to non-tarmac cornering/driving. Heck, up here we'll go for a drive just to find some empty country roads to drive around. One of the guys I know has labeled me as "the best fast driver I know" - talk about an ego boost HAHA!

you guys are very helpful though - esp. you Green

P.S. no, it wasn't a WRX... those have 235HP not 175 like my 99 RS...

might be sacrilege but... have a look...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

..last spring

 

[02BLUR]

You must be joking about it being hard to find parts . . . anybody seriously clubrallying a DSM is going to have a few parts cars sitting around, since you can find them for less than $500 all over the place.

Yah, but what if you keep breaking the same parts? Nobody makes new stuff

 

[wortdog]

There are plenty of wonderful fabricators in the world that can make just about any part you'd ever want. Also, nothing is locking you into rallying the DSM, you can always sell it and move to a WRX five years down the road if parts really did become scarce.

 

[DaveSM]

I want to get into some rallycross myself. Nobody here is setting anything up though, maybe I need to start it myself, hah.

at not being able to find parts like control arms. Do you look through dsmtrader? People are parting out cars all the time, and the amount of cars being parted out will only increase in the new few years.