Question on Timing Belt Install

[DirtyBirdRacing]

I am working on doing a timing belt for my stroker 2.3L engine for my 1g DSM. The block and head have been decked along with other machine work, I have HKS 264 cams, and adjustable cam gears. I installed the timing belt multiple times per the VFAQ and multiple searches on here. I have the timing belt tensioner set correctly per the drill bit check method.
However I am having issues with getting my timing marks to line up exactly. When the crank mark is dead on, checked with a small straight edge I have, the cam gears are off by ~1/3 of a tooth. When I set the camshaft gears dead on, checked with a straight edge, my crank timing mark is then slightly off by less then 1/2 a tooth as shown below. I got this picture from another thread. The red mark represents were my front cover timing mark is in relation to the crank timing plate.

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I have barred the engine over many times like this and I feel no binding, just resistance from cylinder compression.
What is everyone's thoughts?
Thanks,
Bill

 

[o0GuitarKid0o]

I just literally started from the cams and worked my way down

You need to load the cams with 2 wrenches.
i.e. put two wrenches on the cam bolts and line up the marks (help from a friend always works ) an put the belt on and use paper clip clamps to hold the belt on the cam gears (works awesome

The cams like to move

work your way down leaveing the tensioner part for last

You can have some one holding the crank in time with a half inch ratchet or beaker bar if it's moving on ya

Don't rush you only get one shot after you start it
Either you brake valves , pistons or she runs smooth

Rotate the crank 6 times till the marks line up to double check after your finished

By the way your adjustable cam gears are dead on right?

 

[mercaholik]

You also might wanna (should) get a degree wheel and degree your cams. Also do you know how much was removed from the block and head? This alone will change the valve timing, to what extent depends on how much was removed. You should also clay the pistons to check valve to piston and valve to valve clearances on each cylinder.

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

Thanks for the replies. Some more back ground information on this is that this engine is out of a car that I bought from the guy who built the engine. I am going over there tonight so I can ask him how much was taken off the block and head, he did all the machine/build work himself. I also know that the cams were degreed in when he built the engine. The adjustable cam gears are not dead on as when he drove the car he had it tuned by AMS and they had tweaked the adjustable cam gears a few degrees. The other odd thing that I will have to ask him about is that I remember the timing being off more before taking off the old belt. I don't have any pictures for this. However I took some pictures of the engine last night:

Cam gears lined up exactly (they are even with the top of the head, the angle of the picture is just a little off):

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Then the crank gear looks like this (off by about 1/2 a tooth):

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But when the crank gear is dead on it looks like this (off by about a third of a tooth):

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I have done this job probably 7-9 times on this engine now. I have done it with the cam gears held by two wrenches, by the Jay Racing tool, I have tried to offset the crank shaft a tooth to half tooth and the cams and crank always come back to this same position.

 

[o0GuitarKid0o]

It's gotta be the adjustable cam gears
Why else would it be off ?

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

It's the cam gears...... but which one? You need a degree wheel or stock cam gears for reference.

Edit, Looks like the intake cam is off. The exhaust cam might be off a touch too.

 

[Dsmkauai]

Has your head been cut? Did you rotate the exh cam over to the left while installing the belt?

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

I don't think its the cam gears as when you adjust the cam gears you loosen the small bolts/nuts, and rotate the camshaft relative to the outer belt portion of the pulley, not vice versa. The exhaust cam is only advanced 1 degree and the intake camshaft is only advanced ~2 degrees. I am waiting to hear back from the guy who built the engine on how much was machined off, he was also the previous owner who put a couple of years driving on the motor. In previous conversations I think he mentioned to me that he had taken off more than he normally would, but I am trying to get an exact amount for you guys.

When I installed the timing belt everything would be lined up and tight, using a few different methods, and it always came out slightly off as above. As I mentioned above I did it multiple ways, many different times.

The guy who built the engine has built engines for 20 years and he had told me that in his experience you sometimes get an engine where the timing marks just wont line up when you start rotating the engine over. Kind of makes sense as there is a lot of tolerances and stuff at play. I know it sounds like the classic cop out, but maybe I got that odd engine.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

Then you didnt pull the belt tight enough when you put it on and its off a tooth. Thats all I can think of.

Edit: Idk if you have balance shafts, but your oil pump looks to be off in one of the pics.

 

[Lou98GSX]

If you look at the adjustable cam gears where you loosen up the nuts the one on the right is not centered like the one on the left. i would try putting on the factory ones and see what happens .

 

[pauleyman]

Cam gears shouldnt matter as the marks you line up are on the outer ring. Cams rotate relative to these marks. Looks like we're not looking at the crank dead on. When the cams are linend up look at the crank dead on. If youve rotated the motor and the crank looks too far over center then I question the mill on the head. Even more so if oil pump sprocket is also a little over center.

 

[blk91tsiawd]

Bumping old thread to see if anyone has ran into this and found a solution? I've been trying to get my timing dead on and seem to be having this issue.

If I set the timing on the cam sprockets dead on, the tension pulls the exhaust back half a tooth out of time. If I set the exhaust a tooth clockwise like the manuals say the tensioner won't pull back far enough. It pulls back about half a tooth not the full tooth needed. Seems like either way I am about half a tooth off. I'm on stock sprockets vs aftermarket like this thread though.

Any ideas?