PUlling a head with the cams and cam gears attached, and will be changing tbelt toget

[Spoolin4Ever]

Dude, its fine to reuse the manifold studs, dont listen t o him.I agree with not reusing head bolts though.Pretty ambitious going from barley knowing how to change a head gasket to thinking about pushing 30psi...

Well this is the 2nd time this head has been opened. Is it ok to re-use? I think I'm supposed to measure them, but car is on other side of the state, so I will be some new studs and bolts.

Can stock hold 30 lbs?

 

[BogusSVO]

if you are having the head milled, measure the oil trough in the head, it needs to be about .080 deep if it is not, you need to port it out.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341028-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.html

 

[Calan]

Well this is the 2nd time this head has been opened. Is it ok to re-use?

Is what ok to reuse? The head?

Can stock hold 30 lbs?

Maybe...maybe not. But if you are running that much boost you need to have everything else in top notch condition anyway...not to mention the ability to tune it.

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

Alright; I am not planning on running 30 lbs right away, but it's a more long term decision as far as the head bolts. It's if I do want to later, I would then need them. I mean might as well, so if I want to run 30 lbs I don't have to pull the head. I'm gonna stick with a stock head gasket, though.

The head bolts in there right now (stockers) have been re-used once already. So I just ordered the ARP Head Bolts.

Next questions:

1. Exhaust manifold studs; do I need new ones? I mean is it ok to re0use them, they have been re-used before also. Which size? 8mm or 10MM? I have the 2G exhaust manifold. Which reminds me, are the studs that hold the manifold to the turbo the same size as those that hold the turbo to the manifold?

2. Exhaust manifold gasket; I have a new one from Mitsu laying here from before, it's only 2 layers. Is that ok or do I need a 4 layer exhaust manifold gasket?

 

[Calan]

Alright; I am not planning on running 30 lbs right away, but it's a more long term decision as far as the head bolts. It's if I do want to later, I would then need them. I mean might as well, so if I want to run 30 lbs I don't have to pull the head. I'm gonna stick with a stock head gasket, though.

If you are gonna be running 30 psi in the future and don't plan on pulling the head again before then, it's just silly to go with head work and ARP's, and then go cheap on an HG. At least go with a good Mitsu composite; better yet... do the head and block surfacing and go with a Mitsu MLS if you are really planning on that much boost. And at 30 psi, you are right at the point (or a past it) that an old stock bottom end will go kablooy at the first hint of knock.

No offense intended...but 30 psi is a LOT of boost. If you are asking these types of questions, I think you are a long way from running 30 psi for more than a few hundred feet

1. Exhaust manifold studs; do I need new ones? I mean is it ok to re0use them, they have been re-used before also.

Did you bother reading my post above?

...Do NOT reuse the manifold studs...

Ehhh... why not?

They are steel studs screwed into an aluminum head, and the nuts are only torqued to 20 ft lbs. It's not like they are going to stretch.

Now the nuts are a different story. They are locknuts that deform when tightened, and definitely should only be used once. Most vendors only sell the studs and nuts in a kit, but Forced Performance will sell you just the nuts if you ask them....

If the studs are in good shape and not rusted or stripped they will be fine. Buy some new copper lock nuts from FP and call it good.

2. Exhaust manifold gasket; I have a new one from Mitsu laying here from before, it's only 2 layers. Is that ok or do I need a 4 layer exhaust manifold gasket?

The new one you have should work fine. Personally I always go with a 4-layer copper gasket and have had good results, but there are several others that work just as well. The key is in making sure the head and manifold surfaces are flat and clean.

 

[bluegs03]

Hey i dont mean to be rude but these are some pretty basic questions you are asking, i would pull the head not worry about keeping it in time, repair the cylinder head, and then take it too a shop for reassembly.

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

"If you are gonna be running 30 psi in the future and don't plan on pulling the head again before then, it's just silly to go with head work and ARP's, and then go cheap on an HG. At least go with a good Mitsu composite; better yet... do the head and block surfacing and go with a Mitsu MLS if you are really planning on that much boost. And at 30 psi, you are right at the point (or a past it) that an old stock bottom end will go kablooy at the first hint of knock.

No offense intended...but 30 psi is a LOT of boost. If you are asking these types of questions, I think you are a long way from running 30 psi for more than a few hundred feet "

Oh ok I here that. You were the one that said go ARP in case you want to up the boost later, so that's what I'm doing.

I thought the stock head gasket IS composite? Sheesh how many frickin mitsu head gaskets are there?

"If the studs are in good shape and not rusted or stripped they will be fine. Buy some new copper lock nuts from FP and call it good. "

Are you talking about exhaust manifold studs? Just making sure.

 

[Calan]

"If you are gonna be running 30 psi in the future and don't plan on pulling the head again before then, it's just silly to go with head work and ARP's, and then go cheap on an HG. At least go with a good Mitsu composite; better yet... do the head and block surfacing and go with a Mitsu MLS if you are really planning on that much boost. And at 30 psi, you are right at the point (or a past it) that an old stock bottom end will go kablooy at the first hint of knock.

No offense intended...but 30 psi is a LOT of boost. If you are asking these types of questions, I think you are a long way from running 30 psi for more than a few hundred feet "

Oh ok I here that. You were the one that said go ARP in case you want to up the boost later, so that's what I'm doing.

I thought the stock head gasket IS composite? Sheesh how many frickin mitsu head gaskets are there?

"stock" is not the same as "Mitsu" or "OEM". As far as composite vs. MLS, there are different opinions (as usual . Some people have taken composite gaskets to extremes with no problems...but I think the majority of people running high boost levels are on MLS HG's.

"If the studs are in good shape and not rusted or stripped they will be fine. Buy some new copper lock nuts from FP and call it good. "

Are you talking about exhaust manifold studs? Just making sure.

Yes... as long as the exhaust manifold studs are in good shape, you can reuse them. But you do need to get new lock nuts.

It also doesn't hurt to use some anti-sieze on them...or anywhere else that differing metals are in contact (like steel spark plugs in an aluminum head, copper nuts on steel studs, turbo to manifold bolts, etc.). Galvanic corrosion occurs when one metal "donates" part of itself to a different mating metal...the result is a type of chemical welding that makes it really hard to remove those fasteners in the future

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

"stock" is not the same as "Mitsu" or "OEM". As far as composite vs. MLS, there are different opinions (as usual . Some people have taken composite gaskets to extremes with no problems...but I think the majority of people running high boost levels are on MLS HG's.



Yes... as long as the exhaust manifold studs are in good shape, you can reuse them. But you do need to get new lock nuts.

It also doesn't hurt to use some anti-sieze on them...or anywhere else that differing metals are in contact (like steel spark plugs in an aluminum head, copper nuts on steel studs, turbo to manifold bolts, etc.). Galvanic corrosion occurs when one metal "donates" part of itself to a different mating metal...the result is a type of chemical welding that makes it really hard to remove those fasteners in the future

I had a builder tell me that you need to have the block torque plate honed/bored to use ARPs. The stocks only require 65-74 PSI of torque and the ARPs need 90 something right? New studs are NEVER a bad thing. I like how new studs feel when going back together. Old ones can come loose in the head and get heat cycled sitting next to the red-hot exhaust manifold. I did not believe that getting new studs was mis-information. Torque your exhaust manifold in stages also similar to how you will torque your head in the reverse of removal. You did remove the bolts in order right? Torque it PERFECTLY so you have no exhaust leaks.

 

[Calan]

I had a builder tell me that you need to have the block torque plate honed/bored to use ARPs.

Actually it's probably a good idea reardless of which bolts are used.

The stocks only require 65-74 PSI of torque and the ARPs need 90 something right?

It depends on which lubricant is used. There was a thread on this recently, but I can't find it. I believe the ARPS get torqued to something around 80 lbs with ARP moly lube, and around 120 lbs with 30 wt oil.

New studs are NEVER a bad thing. I like how new studs feel when going back together. Old ones can come loose in the head and get heat cycled sitting next to the red-hot exhaust manifold. I did not believe that getting new studs was mis-information.

Well... there's a difference in recommending new manifold studs, and implying that they have to be replaced even if they are in good shape.

Torque your exhaust manifold in stages also similar to how you will torque your head in the reverse of removal. You did remove the bolts in order right? Torque it PERFECTLY so you have no exhaust leaks.

Good advice

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

Well this advice is getting REALLY EXPENSIVE REALLY FAST.

I'm not looking to do a COMPLETE REBUILD.

I burned 2 valves in head that has been rebuilt 55k miles ago. Besides the burnt valves, and doing the timing and water pump (obvously), that's it!

I don't want this help that keeps diggin me into a financial hole.

So I guess that means I need to now just order the stock studs, even though I just spent $100 online oredering the ARP's?

I'm trying to get it back together so it will run, for the least amount but not half ass.

I'm just trying do what NEEDS to be done to do it right.

 

[Calan]

I don't want this help that keeps diggin me into a financial hole.

Well, you started it by saying "I'd like to have the option of running 30 lbs later if I want to"

If you want to just get it running and can keep the boost down around 14-15 psi, then reuse your stock 1G headbolts if they aren't stretched, get some new OEM timing components and t-belt, manifold nuts, and an OEM composite HG and slap that puppy back together.

If you "want the option to run 30 psi", it's gonna start getting expensive in a hurry.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

Well this advice is getting REALLY EXPENSIVE REALLY FAST.

I'm not looking to do a COMPLETE REBUILD.

Yeah, those cost at least $3000 for a forged piston only block and a good head with regrinds.

I burned 2 valves in head that has been rebuilt 55k miles ago. Besides the burnt valves, and doing the timing and water pump (obvously), that's it!

I don't want this help that keeps diggin me into a financial hole.

The DSM will do that for you without any additional help.

So I guess that means I need to now just order the stock studs, even though I just spent $100 online oredering the ARP's?

You'll be glad you ordered them once you begin reassembly.

I'm trying to get it back together so it will run, for the least amount but not half ass.

The car will run even AFU. It may not boost very well or be driveable but you'll be able to 'drive' it.

I'm just trying do what NEEDS to be done to do it right.

Follow the factory service manual and free advice that comes from experience.

The thing about the torque plate boring/honing is that the cylinder walls distort when you bolt the head to the block. You want the cylinders to be TRUE when everything is installed under the clamping load. I'm just afraid the ARPs offer more clamping force than the stock bolts and would cause the cylinder walls to assume an undesirable orientation.

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

OK guys thanks for your support.

To be clear; I will run 20 lbs of boost between now and the next timing belt change in 60k, and then I will reconsider at that time to move up to 30 lbs. or not.

I bought new oem head studs because I figure I want to be able to run 20 lbs, and someone else has been in this head before, so they have been re-used once already.

I'm going oem on everything except I got the Napa Dura Pro Waterpump that has a lifetime warranty, and it has the metal propeller, new, for about $60 out the door.

It's acutally a GMB Made in Japan water pump, now I have the part number I will share that and everyone that wants a good inexpensive water pump can keep it in mind. It came with the gasket and the rubber seal. I have not yet confirmed if they are the right size. In fact who knows until I install it if it's even the right part! you know how bad those places can be. Part number: 148-1440. You can get it online cheaper, but it's nice knowing you can swap it locally if needed.

When I get my order from Mitsu I will share the part numbers on everything, should help with some of the lesser-knowns like little bolts, the head studs and other stuff.

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

If the bottom end is in a position so that none of the pistons are at the top of their travel then you should be good to.

Oh, I thought at TDC, the number 1 and 4 piston are at the top? I can't put the head back on with it at TDC?

 

[Calan]

Oh, I thought at TDC, the number 1 and 4 piston are at the top? I can't put the head back on with it at TDC?

You are correct...#1 and #4 are at the top at TDC.

But... If the cams are installed in the head and you bolt it up with the motor at TDC, you have to pay attention to which valves are open and make sure none of them hit your pistons.

To be safe and make things easier, you can just rotate the bottom end first so that all of the pistons are somewhere in the middle of the cylinders (90* either side of TDC), and then install the head. Since they can't hit the pistons, it doesn't matter if the valves are open or not. Once the head is bolted down you rotate the cams so the dowel pins are at 12:00, rotate the bottom end to TDC, and install the t-belt.

 

[empie1]

You are correct...#1 and #4 are at the top at TDC.

But... If the cams are installed in the head and you bolt it up with the motor at TDC, you have to pay attention to which valves are open and make sure none of them hit your pistons.

To be safe and make things easier, you can just rotate the bottom end first so that all of the pistons are somewhere in the middle of the cylinders (90* either side of TDC), and then install the head. Since they can't hit the pistons, it doesn't matter if the valves are open or not. Once the head is bolted down you rotate the cams so the dowel pins are at 12:00, rotate the bottom end to TDC, and install the t-belt.

Umm...if the dowel pins are pointed up on the cams and the motor is at tdc, your not hitting pistons.There should be no need to "rotate" cams at all if you took the head off properly, or installed the cams properly.

 

[Calan]

Umm...if the dowel pins are pointed up on the cams and the motor is at tdc, your not hitting pistons.There should be no need to "rotate" cams at all if you took the head off properly, or installed the cams properly.

Well of course. But if you need to spin the cams around to remove/replace lifters, take measurements, etc...or the cam dowels aren't sitting at 12:00....why not just do it the easy way and leave the pistons centered in the cylinders until it's time to put the t-belt on?

As long as the valves don't hit the pistons, you can do whatever you want.

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

For installing stock head studs, which lubricant and torque values do you recomend?

 

[empie1]

There are no "Stock head studs".They are bolts, and the values differ based on if they are 1g or 2g head bolts.Look in your manual.Its been years since I have had stock anything..

 

[fwdmaster]

For installing stock head studs, which lubricant and torque values do you recomend?

3 torque sequences 30, 60, 80

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

3 torque sequences 30, 60, 80

Using motor oil or something else?

 

[Calan]

I believe the manual specifies 65-72 ft lbs, but I don't recall seeing a recomendation for which (or any) lubricant. The type you use will determine the torque rating though, due to the threads seeing different amounts of friction.

IIRC, ARP's require 80 ft. lbs. with their moly lube, and 120 ft. lbs. with 30 wt. oil, but not sure on the stock bolts.

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

Do I need to chase the threads with a tap?

If yes, anyone know which size where to get it?