Piston Ring Gap [Merged 5-7] gapping rings pistons end filing

[Devicex]

I contated Jarrod at Buschur(where I bought the pistons) and he let me know that some guy named David said the rings were fine to use and shouldnt be a problem, but then again all the info I'm picking up here and from what I'm hearing from Josh is that an end gap of .022-.024 is too big. Any input?

 

[92redman]

You should be fine with those gaps, I am going to run .020" on top and .022" on the second on a street engine. These are with Ross pistons/Total Seal rings. What is your piston clearance, compression ratio, and how much boost and what fuel will you be running?

 

[Devicex]

Piston clearance I'm not sure of, compression is 8.3:1 as per wisecos specs, boost would idealy be around 25-27 max on my 50 trim, 93 oct pump gas. I still want it to be as street friendly as possible, no need for a full out drag race spyder... :laugh:

 

[anconover]

Those gaps are a little looser than some like to run. Especially on a daily driven street vehicle. You shouldnt really have any blow by issues tho. I dont know wiseco ring gap spec off hand, but i thought it was .019 on top -? Either way bottom should tend to be a little larger gap as well.

Wiseco rings arent file fit in most cases. So if youd like to run a tighter, more specific ring gap, youll wanna let them know when ordering. But those gaps really arent 'too loose'.

I talked to someone who deals largely with wiseco's. He said in order to literally FILE FIT the rings, you need to order a larger ring. If youd like, contact carshopinc.com, theyre the ones who passed that info onto me. Im not sure the exact size he mentioend tho. Or contact wiseco yourself, tell them you have .020 over set of pistons, and would like a ring that you can file to fit a little tighter than theyres come. I dont see why they couldnt have sent you something?

 

[Brian Nutter]

Hello there, if the cylinders are honed to the correct size, we usually see endgaps on the order of .016 on the top and about .023 on the 2nd. The old xx rings were usually about the same on the top and the 2nd. With the new Nitrided/Napier style XX, NPR has taken a different approach by running the 2nds this much larger. One would expect differently, but the o.e.'s have found reduced blowby and oiling with this method. When we keep a pressure from building up between the top and 2nd ring, we keep the top ring seated longer. These have been out in the field now for about 6 months. The reports coming back from our best engine builders have been very good. The nitrided top ring has been seating quicker and is easier on the cylinder. The napier style 2nd ring is superior to the old ring in it's scraping action-(this style of ring is what was used to fix the oiling problem on late model c5 corvettes). The nitrided rails on the oil ring have been reducing wear on the cylinders as well. There should be a slight increase in power due to revised tensions. We sell these rings to a couple different ring companies and most of the other aftermarket piston companies. If the numbers at the top are close to yours, you will be very happy with the performance. If they are quite a bit larger than this, email me at [email protected] as the cylinders might be oversized. We find this mostly w/ standard bore applications. Thanks, Brian Nutter-Wiseco Piston Co.

 

[Devicex]

Thanks for responding Brian, your support is appriciated. The top rings out of the box are gapped to .022 while the seconds sit around .024, a tad large for a typical street motor in my engine builders opinion and the main reason I'm searching for some sort of replacement. I'll contact you via email. Thanks.

 

[-red97rum-]

Do you have a price for these rings? Where could I order a set? I purchased my pistons last feb so am I correct to assume they do not have this "new" style ring?

Thanks,
-Dustin

 

[Brian Nutter]

.024 on the 2nd is ok, but the .022 top is outside our maximum tolerance. I'll email you the return number. We'll put them in our 85.5mm calibrated test bore. The end gap opens up .0031" for every extra .001" of bore, so to me it looks like the bore may be opened up a bit more than usual (in which case you'll have more piston to wall clearance than we normally specify). We'll know for sure when we get the rings back. For the others watching this post, we do consider them to be pre-gapped for most applications, but sometimes they need to be opened up further for Nitrous etc. Always Always check them in any case. These rings aren't available in a file fit, but we often make pistons on a custom basis where we specify a smaller bore to bring the endgaps in to "file fit" range (85.45mm bore instead of a 85.5 for instance). To be frank, even the .022 top clearance would work well w/ minimal blow by (better than o.e.), but we always need be be kept in the loop if any of our components are outside of specification. Best Regards, Brian Nutter-Wiseco Piston

 

[Brian Nutter]

Hi there, if you would prefer to run the new xx rings, please give Wiseco a call at 800 321 1364 and ask for automotive. Give us the bore size and we'll get new rings out to you. They run about $22.37 per cylinder. We've been absorbing a certain amount of this added cost in our kits and will continue this until Jan. 1, 2005 at which point the kit price will go up, but not too much. You can check to see if you had the previous specification xx ring by looking at the expander. If it is a goldish color and the top ring is copper colored rather than dark grey, you have the older ones. I've personally run the older rings in my engines and never had a bit of problem. I'd run them again without hesitation-many people have for a few years now and they have an excellent reputation. Thanks, Brian Nutter-Wiseco Piston

 

[-red97rum-]

Hi there, if you would prefer to run the new xx rings, please give Wiseco a call at 800 321 1364 and ask for automotive. Give us the bore size and we'll get new rings out to you. They run about $22.37 per cylinder. We've been absorbing a certain amount of this added cost in our kits and will continue this until Jan. 1, 2005 at which point the kit price will go up, but not too much. You can check to see if you had the previous specification xx ring by looking at the expander. If it is a goldish color and the top ring is copper colored rather than dark grey, you have the older ones. I've personally run the older rings in my engines and never had a bit of problem. I'd run them again without hesitation-many people have for a few years now and they have an excellent reputation. Thanks, Brian Nutter-Wiseco Piston

I'll have to double check when I get home but I'm pretty sure I have the old ones. I think I'll save my money and run with the rings I've alread got. Thanks for the info Brian!

-Dustin

 

[steve-o_95_GST]

i called the company a few days ago and got the right ones, so remember the 2g (stock atleast) oil control ring is the 2.8mm one and the 1g is a 3mm. the mistake costed me $50.

 

[GSX_Dan]

I was filing the rings down for the proper endgap and I got one of the top rings to .027" on accident. I'm reading that running such an endgap is ok for motors planning to run about 500 flywheel horsepower and that's what I'm planning on. This is according to a calculation that ross provides with their pistons/rings I believe. Any thoughts on this if I made all my top compression rings .027 and the 2nds .022 as they come out of the package. Will this give me lower compression or too much blowbly? Anyone else running this kind of gap?

btw, I'm running Wiseco 9:1 pistons and hoping on +20lbs of boost out of a 60trim. Thanks.

 

[NDgsx]

That's way too large for the top gap, I've never run over .020" on any 4Gxx, usually I run 017-.018". Never make the top ring gap larger then the second ring gap, pressure can backup between them and cause ring flutter. Wiseco will probably sell you rings for one piston, I know that's how Ross does it.

 

[TSIfreek]

I agree. Set your end gaps .017-.019 for that HP level. .026 will cause excessive blow by and an oily engine.

 

[Salad 419]

Wiseco DOES sell rings for one piston. It'll be almost $30 with shipping.

 

[GSX_Dan]

Thanks guys, I shall order the single ring pack then.

 

[MNGSX]

Try to get something like .017 top ring and .019 second ring. Its best for controling ring flutter and oil control.

 

[gsxkid81]

i am installing piston rings right now. i just needed to know if anyone could tell me if the edge in the 1st ring went facing up or down?

 

[TSIfreek]

Usually you want the sharp edge down to scrape the oil off. There sometimes is a mark of some type on one side of the ring and this means up. If no mark is found it can go eather way.

 

[gsxkid81]

thanks for the help kris.i just located my repair manual today. so ifound it there also.the edge is hitting the piston not the cyclinder wall. but you wew right it goes down.thanks again for the help.

 

[kanscrx]

On monday, I'm going to start putting together my 6bolt. It will be the first engine that I've ever fully rebuilt. I have a daily driver so if any problems arise, I have something to get me to work and back. I know some people will say "if you have never done it, let a professional do it!" well, everyone has to start somewhere, so, this is where I'm starting

Now, the questions I have are:
1. To measure piston ring gap, I have read I need to place the ring in the cylinder, then push it down with a piston, to make sure it's square in the bore, then use feeler gauges to get a good reading. Is this the correct procedure?

2. To measure the oil clearance between the crank journals, and the main bearings, I would assumne I torque down the mains, with the bearings in, and get a good square mic. reading, then mic the jourals themselves, and see what the difference comes out to be?

3. Same procedure for the rod bearings? Torque the caps down with the bearings in place, then mic. them? Then mic the journals, and take the difference?

Thanks guys.

 

[bfdahl]

when i do engines I put a ring in the bore and push it down 1/2 in or so with the new piston to square it then, ck the gaps with a feeler gauge. and then fit the rings acordingly.

as for checking the bottom end, there are multipule things you can ck.
the first thing is to plasti-gauge the bearing clearances. This is done with dry bearings installed in the main and rod bearings, then they are torqued to spec and then pulled back apart and checked.

you can also ck for a radial runout on the crank by installing the first and last main caps with light oil on the bearings and put your dial indicator on the thrust bearing journal and ck the runout. Then you can pull the end main caps off and install the thrust bearing cap.
put your dail indicator on the crank flange and check the thrust end play.

all in all a afternoon of dedious fun. you may need a service manual to ck the torlorences!

 

[Burnett03]

On monday, I'm going to start putting together my 6bolt. It will be the first engine that I've ever fully rebuilt. I have a daily driver so if any problems arise, I have something to get me to work and back. I know some people will say "if you have never done it, let a professional do it!" well, everyone has to start somewhere, so, this is where I'm starting

Now, the questions I have are:
1. To measure piston ring gap, I have read I need to place the ring in the cylinder, then push it down with a piston, to make sure it's square in the bore, then use feeler gauges to get a good reading. Is this the correct procedure?

2. To measure the oil clearance between the crank journals, and the main bearings, I would assumne I torque down the mains, with the bearings in, and get a good square mic. reading, then mic the jourals themselves, and see what the difference comes out to be?

3. Same procedure for the rod bearings? Torque the caps down with the bearings in place, then mic. them? Then mic the journals, and take the difference?

Thanks guys.

1) Yes, rings in the bore, feel gauges
2) I use plastigauge, some builders dont like it, but i've never had a problem
3)Again i use plastigauge.

 

[kanscrx]

Thanks for the info guys. I have almost the full FSM print out from one of those cd libraries they have at shops/dealerships, so I luckily have all the specs.

I had bought some plasti-gauge, but after talking to some "race" engine builders, and reading through some threads on here, I wasn't sure whether i'd need the extra accuracy of using a micrometer instead.
I'll go ahead and use the plasti-guage and see what kind of results I get.

Thanks-
Alex

 

[DSMJim]

Here is another way. I don't know much about this machine as my machine shop did it for me, but I snapped this pic during the process...