(Pictures) Took head off block and this is what I found... very interesting!

[Robster]

Okay, so I finally got around to getting some work done on the engine and I pulled the head first expecting to see the head in good shape and the bottom end thrashed to hell... not at all. The bottom end is beautiful, still cross hatch marks in the cylinder walls. The head... is a different story, as you can see two of the valves are cracked to hell... what you can't see is that some of the valves are very soft, and the valves are a little spungy. What I think happened is that the engine was rebuilt but the head and block were never decked so the head gasket already wasn't sealing properly... then when the head was put on the head studs were torqued incorrectly and inconsistantly (which I felt while taking them out) causing the head gasket to blow which you can see in the buildup on the part of the headgasket that was closest to the combustion chambers with the cracked valves. This caused water to get into the cylinder which hit the valves causing them to crack causing the compression loss. Let me know what you think.

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Block

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Cylinder 1

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Cylinder 2

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Cylinder 3

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Cylinder 4

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Head

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Combustion Chamber 1

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Combustion Chamber 2

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Combustion Chamber 3

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Combustion Chamber 4

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Head Gasket Nearest to Combusion Chambers/Cylinders 3 and 4 (cracked valves)

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Head Gasket Nearest to Combustion Chambers/Cylinders 1 and 2 (no cracked valves)

Let me know what you think, is the head deffinately the source of my compression loss, because the bottom end is seriously beautiful and looks freshly rebuilt... how long after a rebuild do those cross hatch marks stay... any and all replies are appreciated.

 

[igopoopy]

you need to re-size your pics

 

[Bostedquest]

you need to re-size your pics

Yes he does.. are eyes hurt....
Also take some more in focus...

But to the question, yes it is feasible...
alot of people do not check the head before bolting to the block.
If it was a basic shop that rebuilt the engine, then they probly did not trq the head propperly.
I am used to V8 motors, so I took my time rebuilding my '63, and always had a manual open that was showing what was to be done, and how to do it.

The hash marks are a up in the air type thing. The easier the motor is treated the longer they last. The '63 I bought last year still had the factory marks on it... 19X,XXX miles later, but the turbo on the car probly crapped out before 90,XXX miles and was just never changed. Hell the only thing I did not like about the motor was the cyls were out of round (still within spec) but on the high end, so I had the machine shop rebore, check crank alignment/balance and install the BSE bearing plates. Then I did the rest myself.

 

[Defiant]

Yeah, try again with pictures that'll fit the browser, or link them.

 

[karbon]

AHHHRGH my tables! They broke! On 1280 x 960 no less.

 

[Robster]

Alright, sorry about that. I resized the pictures and I really do appreciate all the replies.

 

[Defiant]

Thanks for that. Any idea how long it was leaking? It shows how clean water injection will keep the chambers.

 

[Robster]

I really don't have any idea, sorry. I bought the car not running, rebuilt the transmission, drove it for a week and noticed it was unerpowered. Did a compression check and when I got 50-50-50-25 back I immediately garaged it till I had some time to rebuild the engine.

 

[GTM]

I really don't have any idea, sorry. I bought the car not running, rebuilt the transmission, drove it for a week and noticed it was unerpowered. Did a compression check and when I got 50-50-50-25 back I immediately garaged it till I had some time to rebuild the engine.

Those are not cracks in the exhaust valves they are badly burned. You need to do a serious valve job on that head.

"valves are very soft, and the valves are a little spungy" I have no idea what this means, the valves are a steel alloy and nothing soft or spungy about them. The exhaust are different alloy for they see extreme temps and flames rushing past at the speed of sound. If they get out of adjustment and are not allowed to close completely they will burn like what you see. The molten metal can strike your turbo vanes and cause damage there as well. I would suggest all new exhaust valves and a close look at the intakes. The seats are pretty robust and will take a lot of punishment but if the valves were not rotating but stuck in one place they too could need replacing. Underpowered is an understatement... hehehe, it's a wonder you could even start it much less get it out the driveway.

As for you suspicions about the headgasket and engine decking I see no reason to draw that conclusion at this time. If someone modified the oiling system to the head which should only see 25-35 PSI this could explain lifters running too tight against the rockers/cam lobes and causing them to burn. If they were mechanical lifters then they were out of adjustment and running too "tight" and burned. Look for galling on the cam followers/and lobes. If you shop right you might get away with a $300 repair if the timing belt is fresh etc.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Suparata]

Those are not cracks in the exhaust valves they are badly burned. You need to do a serious valve job on that head.
...
If you shop right you might get away with a $300 repair if the timing belt is fresh etc.

Cheers,
GTM

That head was “re-built” and it probably was a “$300” job and that’s why it ended up like that. He will need more than exhaust valves (he may need to go with oversize valves if what I see is true). The guides are probably completely shot so I don’t see how well he has to shop to recondition that head for only $300.

 

[GTM]

That head was “re-built” and it probably was a “$300” job and that’s why it ended up like that. He will need more than exhaust valves (he may need to go with oversize valves if what I see is true). The guides are probably completely shot so I don't see how well he has to shop to recondition that head for only $300.

Hmmm, I don't know the poster or his car or what he was told by the previous owner. I saw or read nothing to indicate the head was previously taken off other than it was an opinion based on his speculation which I consider to be that of a lay-person. As a semi-retired professional mechanic I am reasonably resourceful and know he can buy exhaust valves for under $60 as set, intakes at $1.99 each and a valve grind gasket set for $40. So he's spent $116 for parts, I don't know what a machine shop will charge him for grinding valve seats or taking a fly cut on the head but I doubt it will be be $184. We don't know that it even needs machining, with loose head bolts no wonder it blows a gasket. Now if they have stretched this could be a problem but he needs to measure before he condemns them, if it's torn threads in the block that too is a problem. We don't know the guides are shot until he measures them. I tossed out a number which can be supported just as it's possible to spend $1000 on the same head if he wants it ported and polished especially if he is dependent on others to do all the labor and supply parts. I would think you could offer some help and advice so he does spend his money wisely.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Robster]

I have friends who both work at and own a machine shop so that wont be much. I work on these cars a fair amount, I just haven't seen this on these engines before and I know very little about the history of this car. I have driven it for no lnoger than 1 week and put no more than 300 miles on it. Thank you very much GTM for your replies they are emensley helpful. I can get 1mm oversized stainless valves for under $200 for all 16. So it's not neccessarily parts I'm concerned about. Thanks guys.

 

[steve]

We don't know the guides are shot until he measures them.

Hey Man, haven't seen you around much.

I though those were burned valves. Can anyone point out to be where the head gasket is breached? I can't see it. Based on the oily buildup around the valves I was thinking the guides were hurting and if Mitch thinks it's likely then I'd start planning on it. He does quality machine work and engine rebuilding with lots of 4G63 experence. One of the few people I'd let touch my car.

Steve

 

[GTM]

I have friends who both work at and own a machine shop so that wont be much. I work on these cars a fair amount, I just haven't seen this on these engines before and I know very little about the history of this car. I have driven it for no lnoger than 1 week and put no more than 300 miles on it. Thank you very much GTM for your replies they are emensley helpful. I can get 1mm oversized stainless valves for under $200 for all 16. So it's not neccessarily parts I'm concerned about. Thanks guys.

You are welcome.

I am concerned why 2 cylrs exhaust valves burned, they are closest to the oil supply pipe, banjo bolt and the T'stat if I'm not mistaken. I certainly can't imagine that anything you did contributed to the problem, more than likely it was a pre-existing condition. So you are going to have to play Sherlock Holms with this project. It could have been any number of things including wrong spark plugs, dirty injectors causing a lean condition, loose intake gasket etc. These latter 2 are not really supported by the deposit build up. What I'm saying is that even if you make all the repairs you could find that these were secondary to some original cause that resulted in the burned valves. That's not an absolute statement just a word of caution. Maybe the previous owner can shed some more light on the situation if he's willing to be candid with you as long as you don't have buyer's remorse and bought right. Certainly the head work will be less of a problem than having to pull the whole engine down.

Keep us posted, I'm curious to what you find besides what we know already.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Robster]

I have been playin sherlock with this car since the date of purchase. I bought it from a as is lot in town and the seller is no where to be found (not a huge concern to me, I'm not afraid of a project). Not knowing what was wrong with it being told it had trouble going into gear. Paid $400 for the car and rebuilt the transmission the part that was broken was $46. Anyways, I am re-ringing the block after I check the condition of teh cylinders to see if boring/honing is needed. I will then be replacing main and rod bearings because there was coolant in the oil and that could very well have destroyed both of those. I will check before doing so. Then the engine gets all new gaskets and everything gets cleaned very well. I will keep everyone posted and if anyone else has any ideas or thoughts let me know. Thanks again

 

[GTM]

Hey Man, haven't see you around much.

I though those were burned valves. Can anyone point out to be where the head gasket is breached? I can't see it. Based on the oily buildup around the valves I was thinking the guides were hurting and if Mitch thinks it's likely then I'd start planning on it. He does quality machine work and engine rebuilding with lots of 4G63 experence. One of the few people I'd let touch my car.

Steve

Hi Steve, yes I've not been around much since my son lost his leg in a bad motorcycle accident took the wind out of my sails so to speak. We try to protect them from all the bad things in life and boom some jerk makes a left turn right into the side of him like he's not even there. Four months later, and unrelated full scholarship as a transfer student...

http://community.webshots.com/album/184570474joUUYq
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I saw what I though was evidence between 1&2 and 3&4, didn't see a pict of a common 2&3 for some cars. There was fresh rust and carbon blackened deposits immediately next to them rather than the shiny reflective surface of the crush zone sealing ring.

The oily build up I attribute to having to push harder on the gas to go the same speed thus a rich condition, thinning oil which doesn't get wiped by the rings. The fact that even the burned valve cylrs were just as clean (or dirty depending on view point) and the cross hatch he reported it probably is normal. Since the guide seals are know to be a weak link then they would have had more than enough oil to prevent wear of the guides so he may not have this concern. I have never been one for changing parts unless needed, if something is happy where it is and the burned condition can be explained then it could be a waste of money. However, the owner mentioned Stainless valves and these may behave quite differently with the existing guide alloy.

Actually a knurled guide offers less friction and thus more RPM if that's a desirable result. He could keep moderately worn guides because the knurling process makes them smaller and have to be reamed out to fit standard valves. Another trick is to use 1200-1500 grit sandpaper and lightly sand the stem lengthwise to gain another 200-300 RPM before valve float.

I understand what you mean about who you let work on your car for there are just too many people out there willing and able to do shoddy work and take your money.
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I don't know that small amounts of water in the oil has to mean pulling the bottom end apart. I've done headgaskets where this existed and never had a problem but they were not pulling the same ponies nor driven as hard as these fun cars. Since my needs are to have a reliable car and not the fastest thing on the road I might make a judgment call and just do the head work based on what I've seen. Hopefully we all know these are labor intensive cars and a lot of work has to go in them to make them reliable. Cant help but think of the member who has 3 all well maintained but wont drive them more than 100 miles on a weekend outing because he knows something is going to let him down when he gets to 101 miles from home. But what else can you buy in the current market that will out perform them for under $40k... you just have to be willing to accept some of the problems along with the fun.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[steve]

Hi Steve, yes I've not been around much since my son lost his leg in a bad motorcycle accident took the wind out of my sails so to speak. We try to protect them from all the bad things in life and boom some jerk makes a left turn right into the side of him like he's not even there. Four months later, and unrelated full scholarship as a transfer student...

I'm really sorry to hear about that. I'd be wiped out if that happened to one of my kids. I hope your son enjoys the school, my dad went there and speaks highly of it.

Steve

 

[Suparata]

I’m sorry to hear what happened to your son. I don’t know how many times I said that you can be the best driver in the entire world but, when it comes to be driving on the streets, you are not alone and really bad things can happen. I have a 4 months old son and you can imagine what I felt when I read what happened to your son.

I am willing to check that head out free of charge and see how wrong I was in my assumptions. I will make a list of what needs to be done and see what it will take.
We have to remember that cheap parts are just that: cheap. These engines wouldn’t have survived to all the abuse they see if the factory would have used cheap stuff. And those exhaust valves might very well be some cheap stuff because they do not look to be OEM. But there are some other issues with that job, things that cannot be told only looking at those pictures so Robster let me know if you want to go that route.
Mitch.

 

[GTM]

I’m sorry to hear what happened to your son. I don’t know how many times I said that you can be the best driver in the entire world but, when it comes to be driving on the streets, you are not alone and really bad things can happen. I have a 4 months old son and you can imagine what I felt when I read what happened to your son.

I am willing to check that head out free of charge and see how wrong I was in my assumptions. I will make a list of what needs to be done and see what it will take.
We have to remember that cheap parts are just that: cheap. These engines wouldn’t have survived to all the abuse they see if the factory would have used cheap stuff. And those exhaust valves might very well be some cheap stuff because they do not look to be OEM. But there are some other issues with that job, things that cannot be told only looking at those pictures so Robster let me know if you want to go that route.
Mitch.

Hi Mitch and all:

Four months, just at an age when they are testing your mettle for you are burning the candle at both ends. I swear this is a test to see if you are going to be a fit parent. Hardest thing I ever had to do was give permission to amputate for he still could feel his toes when they sent him into OR. There wasn't enough skin remaining to cover, grafts that didn't take etc. $1/4 mill to get that bionic wonder, he can run a few steps but still not confident, same with bicycle. I want to make prosthesis for swim fins since there is only one on the market but need a ratchet Heim joint. Really trying times, thanks for the well wishes.
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Robster, take Mitch up on his offer, put it on Greyhound bus and he will have it in a day or so. Understood about cheap parts but I figured Eaton wasn't going to recommend something that wouldn't work. Hopefully he's kept the hydraulic lifters in order for that may be where the problem lies if those 2 were not adjusting correctly, one of them was burned over a 90 degree arc rather than just a localized point suggesting it was bent slightly. Certainly the Japanese have gotten their act together with metalurgy yet their valve guide seals wern't worth the effort to make them, this has been true from many makers, not just Mitsu. That sort of nonsense can send a company into bankruptsy if they had to pay the maker for every smoking engine.

From what I could see of the head gasket and Robster's report of loose bolts I would guess the engine missed a couple of scheduled head bolt retorques in it's later years. Of course it never helps if the car is repeatedly overheating because of corrosion, yet it wasn't so bad as to gall pistons or cylrs. I am suspect that the compression gauge was not accurate and/or the throttle wasn't held open when checked for 3 at 50# isn't enough to make it run.

I'm with you on trying to figure out what went wrong. I couldn't see pistons well enough to determine if those valves had lightly kissed them during some previous over-rev condition but it might be somethin he should closely examine. I've seen valve stems so carboned up form seals leaking that it's no wonder they floated below redline because they hadn't seen the occasional visit to high RPMs.

Cheers,
GTM