Oil overfull...Where did it come from? Help Fast please!

[EagleTalonTim]

I just recently rebuilt the head on my 93 turbo and put everything back together according to the book. Other than the posts I have already done on here, I found yet another problem. I changed the oil with 5 quarts Castrol GTX 10x30 and a Fram oil filter. After 4 quarts, i run the engine for about a minute and shut it off. Then i checked the dipstick and it was exactly 1 quart low. After putting about 30 miles on the rebuilt head, I checked the dipstick again and it is 1 quart over. I pulled the drain plug out and caught a little oil in my hand to see if there was any water in it. What came out looked like the old oil that I originally drained from it. I am not sure if it was just oil or if there was water in it. It did not look like water to me. Just black oil. I torqued the head to 68ft pounds which is right in the middle of what the book says...64 to 72 foot pounds. The car is not smoking. Any ideas?

 

[EagleTalonTim]

ok, probably a stupid question....how can i tell if it is a 7 bolt or a 6 bolt? the engine code is a 4g63 not a 4g63t. that is from the sticker in the middle of the engine bay firewall

 

[Splitpi]

ok, probably a stupid question....how can i tell if it is a 7 bolt or a 6 bolt? the engine code is a 4g63 not a 4g63t. that is from the sticker in the middle of the engine bay firewall

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/early-late-engine.html

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Build date, 4/92 was the cutoff for 6 bolts.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

ok....i just completed the compression test.

Cylinder # - compression
1 - 150
2 - 155
3 - 155
4 - 150

Spark plugs had carbon on the bottom of the thread and have white on the head. i am using NGK type R all gapped at .32 This has really got me stumped now.

 

[Splitpi]

Your compression seems a little low... but good as they are all about even. Plugs sound OK as well.

Drain your oil, drain your radiator. Refill and inspect both fluids. You want to ensure there is no oil in the water and water in the oil..

 

[EagleTalonTim]

I already drained the oil after noticing it was over full. It smelled like old gas and had no water in it. I only have water in the radiator now till i get a new one because the one i have on there now is too small for the car and it runs about 20 degrees too hot all the time. I have only driven the car a total of 40 miles. I have no idea what could be causing the oil to fill up that fast with gas. What is the compression supposed to be at? I did notice that if I accelerate fast that it will shoot out a constant cloud of black smoke until I let up. I did a boost leak test and it would not hold any kind of pressure and there were no noticeable leaks except for a bubbling sound coming from the turbo area in the head. I am completely stumped.

 

[Calan]

Sounds like you have some compounded issues.

For one, if you can't hold any pressure during the boost leak test, then that could (at least partially) explain the black smoke; you are running really rich. And if you are running really rich, then there is that much more fuel to find it's way past your rings and into the oil. And for that matter, you're probably leaking most of the air into the crankcase past the rings during the boost leak test if you can't find any external leaks. Just for giggles, plug the breather port at the end of the VC and see what happens during the boost leak test... bet it holds much better.

Your compression does seem a bit low. Mine sits between 165 and 172 (172 across the board last time I checked).

How long did the motor sit without a head on it? After a period of time without running, rings can stick in their grooves a bit. I've usually found that they will work themselves back to normal after a while, but in extreme cases they won't. You may want to try something like Seafoam or similar and see if that will free them up and raise your compression.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

The car sat for 2 days without the head on it. Before i pulled the head, it sat for 2 years...poor car. I felt the cylinder walls for a lip towards the top and there was none.

 

[Calan]

Willing to bet you definitely have sticky rings, if not seized.

If you haven't pulled the head back off, try the Seafoam and see if the rings will free up some. Don't see how it could hurt at this point (not that it would anyway)

I would do the cap of oil and a leak down test as suggested also.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

would that cause the 1 quart of gas in the oil after 20 or so miles? I did notice that the PCV did not hold much pressure when i had the VC off and blew into it. the ball inside still did move like it should. would that cause the boost leak and the excessive black smoke?

 

[Calan]

Bad PCV could cause issues also, but I highly doubt that it can account for all that gas in the oil... that points directly at the rings IMHO.

BTW - You can't accurately test a PCV valve by blowing into it. Search around here and you'll find a bunch of threads about it.

 

[Calan]

Also... on most engines (and I imagine ours as well although I haven't rebuilt one yet), you can have problems with the oil rings and still see decent compression.

Static compressions tests can reveal some problems, but not all

 

[EagleTalonTim]

would the compression still be as high as it is with bad rings enough to leak down that much gas but still run just fine?

 

[EagleTalonTim]

there is absolutely no white smoke from the exhaust. just black.

 

[Calan]

would the compression still be as high as it is with bad rings enough to leak down that much gas but still run just fine?

Ummm... if you are blowing black smoke and can't hold any pressure on a boost leak test... it isn't running "just fine"

Can't say for these cars, but I had an old V8 back in the day that looked ok/good on static compression... but one of the oil rings was almost gone, and while the engine was running it had horrible oil blow by.

I guess you could have gas in the oil (but not a lot of burning oil) if somehow you had a ring sealing problem on the compression stroke but not the intake stroke... although I'm not sure if that's even possible with our ring arrangement.

More likely, you are burning some oil but it is being masked and hidden by the really rich condition.

This would be a good time for someone with more knowledge of our motors to jump in as I'm getting into the "talking out my arse" area

 

[EagleTalonTim]

so i guess my best bet would be to try some SeaFoam first, then if that does not work....rebuild it?

 

[laserspeeddemon]

No compression is dead-on. Remember he has a 1g with 7.8:1 pistons, while the 2g is 8.5:1. Another thing that gets me, even if you are seeping gas into the oil. An entire QUART in 30 miles, thats not possible. Let the car sit overnight and then check your oil level. Tell me how much oil you get.

As for the condition of the oil after 30 miles. It doesn't take much to get oil to turn black, given that it runs through an already dirty motor, with some already dirty oil still left in the pan, and then gets heated during operation.

**edit** oops didn't see page 2.

I had a engine that sat over 5 years. We simply drove it nice for about 1000 miles (never revved past 4000 RPM with load). And then ran it hard for another 1000 (Lots of WOT to work). After that compression was fine. Given, your compression test, I would say the motor is fine. However, you may have other means to leak oil into the cyclinder, like blown valve seals. A boost leak test shows just that; boost leaks. That could cause you to go rich, but if you are blowing TONS of black smoke, then some other issues are still unknown. The injectors might be stuck open, if you used 2 year old fuel that WILL happen. MAF could be toast.

Rebuilding at this point MAY be unnecessarily preemptive. You are moving ahead with a solution when you don't even know the cause. All you have right now is symptoms.

 

[Calan]

No compression is dead-on. Remember he has a 1g with 7.8:1 pistons, while the 2g is 8.5:1.

Hmmm.. I wonder if the shop that rebuilt my motor before I bought the car used 2G pistons?

I was thinking our (1G) compression was normally around the 170 mark

 

[Calan]

Just out of curiosity, do you know if all your injectors are firing?

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Hmmm.. I wonder if the shop that rebuilt my motor before I bought the car used 2G pistons?

I was thinking our (1G) compression was normally around the 170 mark

Ha, nah. This is according the the tech book.

Standard: 164 psi
Service: 121 psi
Variance: 14 psi.

So 155 is actually REALLY good. Last I check mine was 150-155 and my eclipse was 145-150-120-145. Thats is what a bad compression test looks like.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

yes, all the injectors are firing. I felt each one with my hand and i also did the "extension to ear" test. there are no codes being thrown and the CEL is off. (it does work) i am going to change the oil again along with some seafoam to see if that clears up anything. As for the valve seals.....i just reworked the head. 2 new valves...all new valve seals. I am also going to do a boost leak test with some soapy water to see what that turns up. Is there anything else that I should check or anything that i should do extra? I really need to figure this car out. I am new to the turbo world....been stuck in the n/t talon world for 5 years now.

EDIT * i also pulled each injector connector loose and the engine did begin to miss as I pulled and reset each one. With all connected, it starts right up and has absolutely no miss.

 

[Calan]

I agree with demon... I think that much gas leaking into the oil in 20-30 miles is just nuts, even if you had severely leaking rings.

Are you sure that all the valve seals were replaced correctly?

I'm running out of ideas, but it wouldn't hurt to Seafoam it, change the oil (and gas if you can...if it's been setting forever), and check the oil again after several miles. Pay close attention to exactly how much you put in, allowing for the filter to fill up etc.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

Yes, the valve seals were replaced correctly. I put them on with a 12mm socket with a few light taps to ensure they went all the way down and were not put on at an angle. I have done this before to 3 other heads and they lasted longer than the blocks . I put fresh 93 octane in the tank after draining ever last drop I could get out of the tank. I did have to put 87 octane at first because i could not start the car on an empty tank.

 

[300hpGS-T]

when you do the compression test, what kind of pump are you using? a tire pump or bike pump wont hold any pressure. you have to use a compressor with a tank for the system to build any pressure.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

i used an air compressor.