2G Not starting

[LiquidX]

H@xt, I was told to look for signal power, I wrote I had no power which I do not at the CAS when the key is turned.

Pin 88 has continuity and pins with ground connection.
13, 26, 56, 71, 80, 82, 91

I must have not contacted the pin in the plug when I first tried testing ground. Now it just seems I have to trace the signal power to the CAS.


EDIT

I forgot to plug the MFI relay in, the red wire off the CAS has a bit over 10 volts with the key on. Looks like I need to test pin 89 voltage.

For some reason my oil and battery light are constantly illuminated.

 

[snowborder714]

Have you tested the resistance of that wire? Maybe something happened to it that you can't see.

 

[H@xtGSX]

Then the CAS ground is definitely a problem. With the key in the "on" position there should be voltage between 0.8 and 5V, depending on the resting position of the hall tabs. I'm also still at a loss as to why you would get spark unless the CPS is still in circuit and functioning and the 1g CAS signal is/was being seen as noise or a stutter in the signal. I doubt theare exactly simultaneous. If the 1g CAS is spliced into the CPS circuit, wouldn't that also create a doubling effect on the current sent into the ecu if they are both functioning? I don't know...

Thank you for the black top explanation. I have not really messed with one, though I briefly considered getting one when my p0340 nonsense started...

 

[LiquidX]

So of those listed pins that have a ground connection, which are a problem? I'm a manual transmission and removed the cruise control.

 

[H@xtGSX]

the red wire is straight off the MFI, so it will have 9-10v on it. If you know you have continuity between 88 and the pin 13 ground on the ecu, then there should be signal from the CAS. There's nothing really to trace on the signal wire. It's a direct connection between the ecu harness and the sensor. If it has continuity to 13, that is a complete circuit and should work... which would lead you back to the ECU if the sensor is good. Pin 89 is the Crank position sensor signal wire, also grounded off of pin 13. That's where one of my suspected issues is, as I have 9 volts on the signal wire, and i don't believe that is the normal state. I am not an electrician, but the schematic says 5v at the ecu pins. I may be wrong and that 5v circuit applies only to the ecu internal circuit, but I don't think that's the case. The signal travels away from the ECU, for both sensors, and should be 5v according to the diagram.

88 and 89 are just the signal wires. When normally operating, they are both grounded at pin 13. Pin 13 is also externally connected to pin 26 and 91 on manual transmissions, so they should test identically. That is all grounded at location 16 on the connector/ground diagram.

BTW, the clicking you are used to hearing is most likely the idle air control valve on the bottom of the throttle body. The clicking is the valve calibrating itself. It's the loudest clicking I ever hear when I turn the key on. It only does that normally if it has been sitting without power for a little while. If you turn it on, hear the clicking, turn it off, then on again, you'll only hear it click once into position as it is already set from the previous clicks you heard. It will reset and recalibrate after a certain time period.

 

[LiquidX]

How about 56,71, 80,82? I do have the IAC clicking again but thank you for replying to that.

 

[19Eclipse90]

Should be seeing battery voltage at the red wire with the ignition switch on and 4.8-5.2V at pin 88 with the ignition switch on, as stated above.

Not sure on 56 (diagnostic port?), but 71 should have 8V or more when cranking, 80 should have battery voltage with the ignition switch off, and 82 should have battery voltage with the ignition switch on.

 

[LiquidX]

Those were all ground with ignition off. I wonder if it makes a difference if the plugs are hooked up at the ECU or not? Pin 80 goes to cruise which I don't have but I wonder if the fuse blew and I didn't see it.

 

[19Eclipse90]

I'd definitely check the main 60A fuse and sub 10A fuse; there is more than just the cruise that goes to pin 80. Not sure if that will cause other things to power up or not, but worth a shot. You can check 71 and 82 if you like at your convenience.

I'm a bit tired and can't really keep up with all that's been said in here, has the CAS been ruled out?

 

[H@xtGSX]

If the resistance/continuity check out somewhere around 33 (ottomh), and the voltage is 5v ok the signal wire with the key on and B+ voltage on the red wire to the CAS, then I would say we're beating a dead horse. My only outstanding thought is if the CAS is known to be good, the why aren't the injectors cycling? If the CAS wasn't an issue before, then having spark indicates the ecu is properly interpreting the signal on 89, but not 88 if the injectors don't also cycle.

I'd check the splice for that 1g, just in case. Make sure it has good contact.

Edit: The ecu plugs are unplugged for ohmmeter continuity checks and plugged in with the power on for voltmeter testing at the ecu harness with a pin probe or paper clip. If you've been doing your voltage checking with the harness off the ecu, guess what... back to square 1. None of your readings would be right except for the power feed lines.

 

[LiquidX]

I need to check the signal voltage still, I only tested the power wire. The CAS is hooked up using the RRE harness. I'll check the 2 fuses but it makes me wonder why they are grounded out though.

 

[LiquidX]

Apparently I suck at reading pins backwards. I have a total of 5 grounds at the ecu pins including the 2 "ground" pins. Pin 91 (park/neutral switch A/T only) I'm assuming is grounded from factory on M/T vehicles.

Pin 71 - ignition switch ST and pin 82 - ignition switch IG. Pin 71 is constant ground. Pin 82 had a very weak beep if you want to call it that with the key at the off and acc position. On position is a ground connection but is a distorted sound.
This was done with battery removed.

Pin 82 may be grounding at the noise capacitor but why only with the key at 'on'? Anything at the starting system that has ground? That's where pin 71 travels to as well.

Pin 71 with starter relay removed still showed ground.

 

[LiquidX]

Pin 82 has 15.4 ohms resistance while other wires with grounds have up to 3 ohms. Any insight on this info I have posted?

Also removing the noise capacitor doesn't make a difference.

Is the ignition wires from the ECU supposed to have ground??

 

[LiquidX]

New update.

I have power to pin 82 with the ignition switch on so that's fine. I did not check pin 71 while cranking.

With various combinations of using my spare working CAS and 97 ECU I get a single pulse from the noid light and nothing at all after the initial key turn.

 

[LiquidX]

Well I am going to need to have a shop look at the car. I don't know what else to test or even how.

So no one knows why I would have 1 quick light and nothing???

 

[H@xtGSX]

Well, I know the feeling and you're not alone... even though that doesn't help at all.

I finally got fed up with my electrical problems after actually cutting the wiring from the ECU for the circuits I was having problems with, and re-wiring it myself so I'd KNOW it wasn't the wiring harness or a short somewhere. Still didn't fix it... still got a P0340 code, despite that fact that every part of that circuit, from the ECU to the sensor, checked out normally and was new or known to be functional equipment. I gave up and bypassed the entire 95 ignition sensor cluster#### with a 1g CAS... and I have to admit that I am glad that I did, regardless of the little hiccups it can cause. The car runs, there's no codes being thrown, and I got rid of those P.O.S. 95-96 saddle CAS sensors... I'm not re-doing the timing ever again for those damn things. I even had a little celebration once the 1g CAS was working. I burnt that 95 CAS with a cutting torch. It felt good... even though it was juvenile and pointless to do so.

What you are describing now sounds like it has reached the point where unless I were there, looking at it at the same time you were, I'd very likely wind up giving you bad advice. We can't see how you are conducting your testing or the conditions the wiring is in. I'd imagine that's why no one else is chiming in also.

The only other option you can try is what I did, although I DON'T RECOMMEND IT. I do it because I am not afraid of having to completely re-wire an entire vehicle and have done so in the past... You'd take every problem circuit, finding the wires at the sensor and ECU, cutting them, and splicing in wire you pull yourself that you know is good. Preferably shielded wire. That has saved my @ss in the past with other vehicles, but I am finding out these DSM's are bitchy and I am having to slap it into submission with major mods...

 

[LiquidX]

I got the 97 Talon FSM in the mail the other day and under the fueling section, there is a listing for fail safes. If the PTU or ignition is faulty, it will cut fuel. I still need to test the PTU or rather find a local 2g one to borrow. If that doesn't work then it is shop time.

 

[snowborder714]

I'll be home sometimes Monday or Tuesday and will look for the PTU for you. If I can't find it, I'll just go yank the one off my car for you.

 

[LiquidX]

Thanks Brian. I'll let you know if Nate gets around before hand though.

 

[LiquidX]

Well the car is at a local shop and they are checking it out. I just received a call and they were asking about a few items which was good (asked about the MAF and the ECU/chip, etc). So apparently just with basic checking, they noticed that the CAS put's out a nice square wave signal at first and then it just stops.

They are thinking the ECU is looking for something else but they also believe there may be an intermittent ground somewhere that is occurring. I should hear more later on in the afternoon

 

[tode5tool]

um.. i just skimmed through the thread, I don't think anyone mentioned this. but u said something about not hearing or hearing a clicking sound? what ever the case, I had something similar happen to me, but it was just it breaking on its own. try looking for the clutch relay switch, under the radio. it wont let the car start if its broke. its a little black box like an inch long and a 1/2 inch wide. Im just tying to help out, i know you may be far more advanced then me when it comes to the DSM but sometimes its something easy we forget to check. hope you get her running!

 

[LiquidX]

I have that disabled. The clicking was taken care of, it was the ISC mentioned earlier. Thanks for the reply however.

 

[LiquidX]

Well, I don't know why I didn't notice this before but it seems the shop took notice. My MAP sensor isn't showing any value changes while trying to start or while giving direct pressure to it while power is applied.

Just need to figure out if the harness itself is the culprit or the sensor is bad.

I'm just happy I was finally able to get a log of the start attempt.

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[LiquidX]

Wouldn't you know, the MAP sensor was bad. Replaced it and the car fired up. I suppose since there was no air signal going to the ECU, why would it inject fuel.

Running at 9.x:1afr but I believe that's just the wideband needing re calibrated after this ordeal.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Don't forget that the juice is runnin' on that MAP sensor I let you borrow.