NEWBIE to 4G63T motors...think headgasket blown?

[duggyb]

well i am looking at buying a 1990 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo(FWD) and the guy is telling me it has a blown headgasket and he has to many other projects to worry about and no time to fix this car.

he is asking 800 bucks for the car...which does not all seem bad since body and interior are in nice shape so even if i dove into the motor and it was shot(internal interferance) i could part the car on ebay and make most if not all of my money back i think.

mainly i want to know if this guy is just B/S me or not on the headgasket.

i dont have pictures on this computer(i am at work) but when i took a look at the motor right around the area where that rubber peice lays over top the plug wires there is large amounts of oil...and also large amounts of oil around the valve cover gaskets and stuff(loooks like clean oil to...not used black oil?) why would oil be up here if a headgasket was shot?

now also down where the head mates to the block there is obvious oil leaking out with all the symptons of a blown headgasket....the guy said the car will run but he does not want to start it unless he has to to show me...he said it puffs greyish/white smoke out the exhaust when he fires it up.

now i am mechanically inclined but i am used to working on V8's(like my 97 F150 5spd 4.6 ) and my buddies 96 4.6 mustang GT 5 spd) so these 4G63(T) motors are forgien to me...only import motor i have ever worked on was my 1985 Z24 motor in a Nissan truck that needed a headgasket done..but it is SOHC and the timing chain was relativly easy to hold in place so i never had interference problems.

also if i do pull the head do the head and block need to be truued and resurfaced? or just slap a gasket on there and go? also what is the best gasket? just a good old Fel Pro or should i go with a mitsubishi one from a dealer?

all in all would it be that hard to do? by other buddy has changed a headgasket on a NON turbo version of these cars..is there any difference to the head/head gasket on the non turbo?

the guy also tells me that with about $200 in work the car can move from a stock 195HP to about 275HP is this true? he said all you need is a K and N air filter($50),boost guage($45),boost controller($100) and you crank the boost to 15lbs and you are good to go for 250-275hp..lie or truth?

should i give it a try? or am i getting in over my domestic mechanically inclined head? haha

here are the pics form the Ad.

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THNX
Duggy

 

[PerpetualBliss]

Go for it. It's a good first dsm to start with. They guy seems like he is hiding other problems that he isn't telling you about. The blown headgasket seems true. If you can, do a compression test.

The block and head might need to be resurfaced only if they are out of spec, I'll have to go look in my Haynes for the numbers.

Every car is different and responds a little differently to mods, but typically a 14b at 20-21lbs(with all supporting mods of course) can net around 275whp.

 

[SpawnedX]

The vehicle will still circulate oil with a blown head gasket, so it is going to get into the valve area, and it sounds like you will need a Valve Cover gasket as well.

The changing of a head gasket on a 4G63T motor is fairly easy, I have done them on vehicles from Chevy to Honda, and the 4G63T is in no means more difficult then any other for a mechanically inclined person.

Any time you do a head gasket I recommend having the head machined, why not while you have the head pulled off. Also might as well do an upgrade and get a Cometic head gasket (my personal choice).

Also $200.00 of work is not going to get you near 100 HP. I think I can guess why this guy is really selling this car, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'd buy it for 800.00, even if it did need a motor, but that's because I have 4 laying around.

 

[PickleRick]

Not seem like a harda**
But forget it, and go with an AWD.
Trust me. I went with a GS-T and now that I did.
I wish I had got an AWD.


Otherwise, if the engine does turn out shot. Go pick up a six bolt.
That's your best run:]

 

[duggyb]

i thought this motor was the six-bolt...thats we the guy told me anyways he said its worth it because it doesnt have the crank walk problem of the 7 bolts....and he seems like he knows what he is talking about..as you can see he has that white laser in the background as well as 2 talons(autos) so i am not sure..lots of the stuff he said made sense but then lots was like WTF are you saying man that makes no sense...haha so i have no idea.

so adding the things he said are going to get me how much HP approx??

mainly i want to try and run with my buddy pretty close and he is pushing about 265hp in his 96 mustang.

THNX
Duggy

 

[PerpetualBliss]

That car is a 6 bolt.
90- May of 92 came with 6.
Everything beyond is 7

 

[No_Skillz]

Headgasket job is different for this car compared to an n/t. They are different motors. If you are "mechanically inclined," it shouldn't be too much of a problem. You can just slap an OEM one on there provided you clean both surfaces real well. However, if you choose to go with an MLS headgasket, you will need to redeck both the block and the head. A timing job isn't all that difficult either.

Oil in the valve cover grooves could be as simple as the oil cap leaking (very common) or valve cover gasket leaking. Either way both are very easy to fix. Clean oil is a good sign, since it means the guy takes care of his shit.

$250 worth of mods and 275hp may be a bit of an exaggeration, but this car will not disappoint you in the hp-to-money department. Provided it is in good condition and you trust the guy, I wouldn't hesitate to pick it up for $800.

Personally I would suggest you slap on the OEM headgasket and go with ARP headstuds. This combo has been proven on 500+ hp cars. It will give you plenty of upgrade space if you plan on it in the future.

 

[duggyb]

here are the other pictures i was talking about with the oil around the motor.

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THNX
Duggy

 

[KDub]

Wow that oil is a mess. Looks like the valve cover could be cracked probably near the #1 spark plug which is a usual spot for them to crack at. Replacing all the valve cover gaskets and jb weld the valve cover is a simple fix and the least of your worries. I say buy it even though it's only fwd, it will be a good experience to crack open a dsm motor and learn instead of being nervous taking apart a running dsm.

 

[DSM1G90]

True, it be a 6bolt, for a 7bolt will have a different oil pan where the front of the pan under the crank pulley will have a "V" grooved in front and the front of the motor will have a lower lip to allow balance shaft belt replacement without having to take off the crank sprocket.

I have a JDM Galant RS Turbo 6 bolt in my Ply with 510 injectors and a large 16g turbo hanging on the front. This one will prob have stock 450s and a 14b turbo.

Doing DOHC belts isn't that hard either, but the 4G63 one in doing belts, one needs to read in http://vfaq.com site on getting the autoaduster in the right measurements.

 

[SpawnedX]

Any FWD car, especially a manual CAN develop crankwalk, it's not like it's a condition that exists only in 2G DSMs, but it is definitely more common on them, lot's of speculation on that.

I don't see what doesn't make sense.

A blown head gasket, on any vehicle doesn't mean you are losing all the oil in the motor right then and there and none of it is getting into the head.

$200 of mods for 100 extra HP is one of those if it sounds to good to be true situations. I would question the integrity of anyone who knows what they are doing with DSMs on this claim. If it can be done, it can't be done without risking damage to the motor.

It definitely looks like you need a VC gasket by those pictures, like I stated earlier.

You don't need to match your buddies 265 HP in his Mustang to hang with him, since the Laser is much lighter.

So you tell me what doesn't make sense, and I will clarify it.

 

[duggyb]

ok well i have decided i am going to go do a compression test on the car this weekend

what kind of numbers should i be looking for? my dad said if it has anything below 100 the valves are burnt...sound about right? whats a good number? fair number? bad number?

haha only thing i have done a check on is 2 stroke sleds and a good number on them is about 140...bad being 90-110

3 full motor rotations should give me a accurate number correct?

also as for HP what kind of stuff should i be thinking about doing if i want to run with the mustang? i have already decided on ARP head studs,K and N filter,Boost Controller(gReddy any good?),boost guage for sure anything else while i have it tore apart?

or bolt-ons?

THNX
Duggy

 

[No_Skillz]

If you have a blown head gasket there's no point in doing a compression test. If you get bad numbers you are still in the dark about what's wrong. A number of things can cause a bad result - bad rings, valves, or headgasket.

Cause of oil on top of the valve cover is also inconclusive from your pictures. Take off that plastic plug cover and take a look underneath. Also check in the spark plug wells. From what I see so far it looks like simply a worn out oil cap.

 

[duggyb]

ok so i guess i wont do the compression test...haha

as for the Cometic gasket...i noticed it on ebay for about $80 plus shipping..that doesn't seem to bad...but is there a website or store i can order all of this stuff for in one hit(like cometic gasket,valve cover gasket,ARP head studs...etc)

once again anyone recommend anything else while i got it tore apart? lifters? springs? etc?

THNX
Duggy

 

[SpawnedX]

You need to do 4 compression strokes to get an accurate compression reading.

A VC gasket is cheap, so is an oil cap, do them both for the sake of maintenance. You need to decide on what you want to do with this car, are your lifters ticking, do your springs look worn or broke?

Go to the parts option up at the top of this site and look at the parts you are interested in, see if they list any vendors on each part that are the same.

I would assume Slowboy Racing has them all.

 

[duggyb]

well here is the list i put in a cart form slowboy...anything i am missing?

ARP DSM Head Studs
A must have for your high boost dsm. Do not do your head gasket job without putting a set of these in at the same time! That would be a crime.
Selected options:
Model: 6-bolt
$93.50 x = $93.50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cometic Metal Head Gasket
This is the best head gasket we sell. Cometic has finally stepped up to the plate of building a high performance Mitsubishi head gaskets. This is a great metal head gasket if you plan to run under 30 pounds of boost and need the strength of a metal gasket under the hood of your DSM!
Selected options:
Model: 4G63 Cometic C4234-051
$94.99 x = $94.99
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NGK BPR7ES
NGK-R Spark Plugs
The best plugs for imports running any type of forced induction have always been NGK Copper Spark Plugs. Anyone who has been around the Mitsubishi Eclipse, the Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser, Mitsubishi Galant, Lancer EVO 1-3, know that there is no wasting time with anything but NGK R Spark Plugs!
$10.00 x = $10.00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mitsubishi OEM Oil Cap
Stop that valve cover from filling with oil! This cap will help stop oil filled plug wells from developing!
$15.00 x = $15.00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OEM Intake Manifold Gasket
Talk about another problem on turbo cars. If this gasket is even slightly seeping out the corner, your going to have a sputtering DSM. This is an original OEM part that works much better than the standard paper replacements from Fel-Pro and EL-Cheapo Gasket Company Inc.
Selected options:
Model: 1G (1990-1994) MD 188995
$10.00 x = $10.00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hussey Copper Exhaust Gasket
This is a thick gasket for those of you that really need a big bad gasket to seal up your manifold. This thing is so thick, you could measure it with a ruler because it's that thick! All ports on this gasket are even embossed and have a smash pad for super tight seals.
$24.00 x = $24.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Taylor 8mm ignition wires
Taylor 8mm ignition wires
Color: Red TAY 077232
$63.00 x = $63.00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Valve Cover Gasket Set
One of the very first gaskets you should replace on your 6 plus year old DSM is always the valve cover gasket set. Over time this butyl rubber piece becomes hard and frail. Comes with everything seen in the picture. Stop the oil from running down on your manifold now, and making a mess of your engine bay!
$39.00 x = $39.00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lower Injector Seals
A very common boost leak spot, these seals turn to plastic over time.
$12.00 x = $12.00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Throttle Body Gasket
A very common boost leak spot, replace this gasket when ever you have the TB off the car.
Selected options:
Place: Both ($10)
$10.00 x = $10.00

Subtotal:
$371.49


THNX
Duggy

 

[SpawnedX]

No, if you are just looking to do routine maintenance, just add an oil change and see how it runs after all that.

 

[91tizzy]

aside from it being fwd and even with it being fwd it is by far worth what he is asking.... the body is decent and the motor can be gone through for fairly cheap if your doing the work....seriously you wont regret the car if you put a little time and money into it and once you do some of the basics you will get to a point to where all you will need is more fuel and a tune to make much, much more power...is this an auto or standard? any grinds?

 

[duggyb]

the car is a standard...he said shifts great into gears but reverse sometimes does not like to go in(i swear every manual vehicle is like this...my 97 F150 and my 98 cavalier do the same...gotta go really slow or try double clutching)

ya it is in decent shape i figured worst case i part it out..

but after i priced all those parts out which i think is all it should need...we should be good to go.

the story the guy told me was he bought it off this kid whos parents "suppsoedly" just had the whole motor and trans redone on the car(no proof though) and then about a month after the headgasket went..he paid $800 for it...does not have the time to change the gasket himself like he was going to so now he just wants what he paid for it.

what i am hoping happened is

parents of the kid paid for a rebuild and the mechanic used a crappy gasket(fel pro or something) and a month later it blew out...so i am hoping by putting a good Cometic gasket in that it should be a pretty tight motor...but i guess i will see once i rip the head off...haha

should i change the timing belt as well? is there anyway to tell if its new or shot?

THNX
Duggy

 

[bluegs03]

honestly i would keep on looking, i dont think your going to get your money back even if you part it out. I bought my awd eclipse for $1000. but thats just my .02

 

[KDub]

id change all the belts too and hydraulic tensioner. even though I checked the tension and belt after every oil change the belt shredded and belt 4 valves. Now I'm paranoid and went with a kevlar timing belt and brand new oem tensioner. Also drain and refill tranny fluid. Also a turbo gasket since you'll be taking off the manifold. And while you're at that locate a 2g turbo manifold.

 

[eeeewidner]

i was in a similar situation about 2 months ago when i purchased my 92 dsm. the best things to check for on those cars are as follows. pull the timing belt cover, inspect the belt and cam marks. if ok. do a cooling system pressure test. or drain the coolant and try to start it. even with a bad head gasket it should still start. briefly though. dont let it run for more than a couple of minutes. these engines heat up fast.....even if it is the head. the head is about 800 at any parts house ie. az. advanced auto parts. i went that route. then sent it to a machine shop for pressure testing. it was well worth the investment... im making around 310 fwhp with minor head mods and 18psi boost.....

 

[KDub]

i was in a similar situation about 2 months ago when i purchased my 92 dsm. the best things to check for on those cars are as follows. pull the timing belt cover, inspect the belt and cam marks. if ok. do a cooling system pressure test. or drain the coolant and try to start it. even with a bad head gasket it should still start. briefly though. dont let it run for more than a couple of minutes. these engines heat up fast.....even if it is the head. the head is about 800 at any parts house ie. az. advanced auto parts. i went that route. then sent it to a machine shop for pressure testing. it was well worth the investment... im making around 310 fwhp with minor head mods and 18psi boost.....

$800 for a stock head are you crazy? you can buy a head with bent valves for $100 at then build it for $700 to handle 9k rpms. or just buy a good stock head off somebody for $250?

 

[JusMX141]

well here is the list i put in a cart form slowboy...anything i am missing?

You're forgetting the timing belt, balance belt, auto tensioner, and all idler/tensioner pulleys that should be changed as well.

The timing belt must come off for a head gasket job- might as well change everything now or you'll be pulling the head again when the belt breaks and crashes the valves.

While the head's off BE SURE TO CHANGE THE VALVE SEALS. Hardened valve seals are responsible for probably 99% of oil consumption in DSM's with over 10 years of age or 100k miles.



The line about "raising the boost to 15psi and adding a K&N to make 275whp" is complete B.S.

 

[duggyb]

ok well i guess since i got this out i might as well do it right....should i pull the motor? or can i do everything with it bolted in?

so i have decided to buy FULL gasket set and do every gasket as well as a cometic head gasket,plugs,wires,ARP studs,valve seals

now as for timing stuff
what exactly is the balance shaft eliminator kit? should i get it?
do i need a whole timing kit like they sell on slowboy? or wht do i need?

sorry for all the questions..but being new to these motors i am not sure what all should be done while i have it tore apart.

so anyone have anything to add to list? if so let me know where it is on slowboy.

THNX
Duggy