New Times on the 14B

[Phil1320]

How much boost are you guys running with these 14b's

21 psi

Phil

 

[byebyev8]

seems like there's no need to upgrade to a 16g when you can run these times. I'm sure with race gas u'd be able to pull off 21psi with just a pump upgrade. 14bs are the shit.

 

[ihatedsms]

Very nice! Maybe ill throw a 14b on the car im building now and come after you guys! . I miss my good ol 14b. This car would be ALOT lighter then the car i went 112.89mph on. Hmmm decisions. My 11 second 14b pass never got to happen.

Well anyway awsome job!

Do you have any pics of your car and setup?

 

[ApexVIII]

i saw this in person great run!
nice to meet you!!!

 

[pneumo]

Now....go get Nate's 11.44 N02 run and...

Thanks Phil, that's all it took to motivate me today. I didn't realize Nate's time was within reach!

I went to the track today with the goal of beating Nate's time. On the way to the track I was thinking that I'd have to do EVERYTHING perfectly to get another tenth out of the car. My plan was to try a burnout to make the tires stickier, raise the stutterbox, shift at higher rpms, get a better mix of racegas by arriving at the track with a nearly empty tank, tune for better gas by adding one degree of timing across the board, add two degrees of timing above 7k rpm, raise the rev limiter to 8500rpm ( does this sound like a 14b setup?) and lastly, pray that everything comes together.

The first run was my best run. I hit 11.514@ 118mph! The full timeslip is viewable now. Here's a comparison of my 11.514 run vs the previous 11.516@ 114.

60' 1.637
330' 4.755
1/8th 7.349@ 93.15mph
1/4 11.514@ 118.13

and
60' 1.559
330' 4.677
1/8th 7.317@ 91.859
1/4 11.516@ 114.390
So I broke my record again by 0.002 seconds. The mph was way up, so the tuning was working very well. Unfortunately the track wasn't sticky enough and my 60' time was much slower than the 11.516 run from a few days ago. The datalog showed knock peaked at 2 counts

My second run was 11.571@ 117.59 with 10 counts of knock right where the O2 volts (that's right, no wideband!) dipped all the way to 0.10V for a half second. That was wierd. I had no idea why it went lean at that one point, injector DC didn't change, but in hindsight it could have been the alternator craping out.

On my third run I knew I had to do a burnout. The air was cooling off, so was the track and my tires. So I roll through the waterbox, hit the stutterbox hard and dump the clutch. It was pretty sweet, all 4 tires spun easily and the car didn't move too much. I pushed in the clutch, the revs fall quickly and the car stalled. The twin disc clutch has made stalling a regular event. I expected it to stall. I didn't expect the starter to make a feeble 'click' sound when I tried to restart it.
I try again- 'click, click, cleek'
ah crap
I got a jump start and it starts right up. Datalogger shows battery volts dropping. Revving the engine doesn't raise volts. Alternator is dead, night is over, time to call a flatbed tow truck.

 

[T9S1i]

ahhh weak! well the alternator thing is weak..

Good job on breaking your record again at infineon... you need to take the car back to sac cmi while its still hot up there. You should break the other record with the new tune!


go to kragen and replace your alternator. I would look into heat wrapping your exhaust or anything hot near the alternator. Those kragen alternators die easially, its cool that you can get a new one a week if you need it, but its easier to just leave it in there. Maybe you can look at re-locating it to where the AC was. (im sure youve already ditched the ac right?)


Good luck dave, your in the same boat as me now, alternator frying issues. Ive just been too lazy to look at my car, let alon work on my it!

 

[pneumo]

OK here's a couple of pics.
This first pic shows the car with race wheels. I posted this in another thread, so click on the link. www.dsmtuners.com/forums/151602618-post23.html

I just took the second pic. Everyone should give the middle finger to the alternator for me, OK?
Yes, that's a 3" uicp.

 

[Mr Peepers]

That is downright incredible!

Can't wait to hear more, I'm in awe.



-Matt

p.s. the car looks amazing with those wheels/tires

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

Wow David! Nice run!! -and on a 14b, no doubt... I'm thoroughly impressed!

I'm sorry to hear about the ever popular DSM alternator problems. I went through 6 different alternators ("new", remanned, & a rewound) in my 94 before I just decided to go with the Saturn alternator conversion & relocation. -I HIGHLY recommend doing the same in your case, especially if you aren't running AC.

Just by eliminating the problematic Mitsubishi voltage regulator, these Saturn alternators offer (IMO) more reliability, and deliver A LOT more on-board voltage as well. -So much, you will probably have to go burn another EPROM chip just to retune the car! I know I had to retune my DSMLink the moment I installed it... Most notably, the Saturn alternators don't suffer from the problem of the voltage tapering off as you progress through the run. My Supra pump liked that! -I ended up needing to adjust fuel trims pretty much across the board to keep it from loading up (verified on AEM WB).

Give it some thought I don't think you will regret it.



Eben

 

[pneumo]

Thanks again everyone! To catch up on a few questions, I'm shifting around 7800 to 8100 rpm depending on the gear. With the way the gearing is set up on DSM's I like to shift at higher rpm in the lower gears, then as I go up through the gears the shift point comes down.

I don't exactly know how much boost I'm running since it's constantly falling. I can't stare at the gage during a run since I'm focused on the tach, driving, and concentrating on shifting as fast as possible. I could be off by a few psi, but I think it's around 20 at 5k rpm and drops to 15 by 8k rpm. I checked for shaft play last week and the turbo was fine.

 

[Phil1320]

Dave-

Sorry to hear about the alternator thing....that blows.

Even though, you still beat your best time even if by a slim margin. No matter what happend at the strip, if I beat any of my "bests" i.e. 1/8 mile trap etc., I still viewed it as mission accomplished.

So, big MPH gain with the new mods....nice!

You are very close to beating Nate's 11.44 NOS run. Without a doubt you will be able to do so and situate yourself behind only Bucci's FWD and at the top of the AWD list.

So, go get it!

Funny thing, I keep a small copy of the DSM times 14b list in my wallet, and when the list is updated, I print a new one. So, I always know how far back I'm falling!!! Ha!

Good luck!

Phil Beers

ps- sweet intake manifold!

 

[rrussell]

Sorry to hear the alt. problems. Nice work!!! Thats a very impressive mph and ET.

 

[bullettdsm]

So, big MPH gain with the new mods....nice!

Absolutely. With that change in traps, all you're looking at is a little seat time (maybe just launch) to get close to that 11.44.

Again, really great stuff. Very impressive.

MB

 

[pneumo]

Tonight was the last day of Wednesday Night Drag Racing. Despite the alternator troubles last week I managed to make it out for the final night. Big thanks goes out to the guys at Full Function: Home for getting a spare alternator for me. The dude at Kragen dropped the ball and didn't order a replacement alt in time, it still hasn't come it. Sean at Full Function came through for me, no problem
I also want to thank him for the dyno time, which was just the thing I needed to break the record the first time, and for the pro quality welding on my rollbar.

I'd also like to thank my other "sponsors?"
Danny aka T9S1i for giving me a broken AFPR that I fixed and is still in use on my car.
Brian aka tstkl for the use of a J pipe to connect the 14b to my fmic kit.
Dagoba Organic Chocolate for the free samples of their dark chocolate that was so strong I got a buzz from it! They're responsible for some of the energy and wacky ideas needed to make this project really take off.

 

[pneumo]

Oops, I hit 'reply' too soon.

My best run for tonight was 11.55@ 117.6 No new record today, and this was the last day of the season, so Nate's time is safe for now. I might have gone faster except my logger kept disconnecting, so I didn't have any feedback to adjust the tune. I could've used it. I logged the third run, and it showed timing advancing a little too much at high rpm. I got 29* at 6781rpm, 30* at 6875 rpm, 31* at 7k, 32* at 7218, and it topped out at 33* at 7593. That's a little too much too soon.

My final run was a crowd pleaser. I had done a few burnouts earlier, but they weren't very effective at heating the tires since I could only burnout for a couple seconds at most. After that I'd have to hit the brakes to keep from rolling past the staging lights.

On my final run I tried something different. I rolled through the waterbox and stopped my car a few feet ahead of the waterbox. As soon as the waterbox guy gave the signal to start our burnouts I put the car in reverse and backed up a little. While the car was rolling backwards I nailed the throttle and hit the stutterbox while simultaneously shifting into first gear. I dumped the clutch while rolling back and the tires spun easily. Yes, the tires were spinning forward while the car was rolling backwards! The car drifted sideways just a little as it started moving forward again. I really wish I could've seen it myself, but I guess it's still pretty cool driving it like that. I kept the engine from stalling this time by heel/toeing the brake and throttle. I guess autox/RR driving skills help on the dragstrip, too.

The best part was driving the car home.

 

[LucasEnglish]

Nice times. Love to see people push the small turbos.

Maxed out small turbos are so fun on the street with how hard the hit when you roll on them.

I am still amazed to see what these small frame mitsu turbos can do.

I thought my 12.3@110 was good back in the day (that car was full ABS, leather 3300lbs with me) Stock cams,injectors. Straight race gas pulled WG line spiking 28 falling to 20psi by 6k.

This car would be a high 10sec car and trap in the mid to low 120s on a 16g. One of my tech went 11.3@123 out of his EVOIII 16g tonight.

 

[debow_8787]

nice work man car looks good cant wait to here what comes next.

 

[T9S1i]

Great job this season Dave!!!
Glad to see you put that afpr to use! it would have just been sitting on my shelf if you didnt use it haha.
I would have loved to see that burnout! sound like it was fun for all.


When does the season close at Sac CMI? I always thought they went year round! that would mean no excuses for you to stop racing!!!


Anyways, my car passed smog yesterday, so im good to mod and race for the next 2 years...

 

[SBstar]

I'm sad to see the season end But congrats on a great one! How much do you think the SMIM is doing for your setup? I would be curious to know if it's actually helping or hurting with the 14b.

 

[slidesquad]

any one know the record for a galant vr4?

 

[pneumo]

I'm sad to see the season end But congrats on a great one! How much do you think the SMIM is doing for your setup? I would be curious to know if it's actually helping or hurting with the 14b.

I could've used a stock intake manifold with the fmic kit, but I wanted to push the peak VE up to higher rpm. I also used FP2 cams, which are also tuned for high rpms.

I don't have any before/after dyno tests, but my track results speak for themselves. With stock cams and stock intake manifold I trapped 114mph, with smim and FP2 cams I trapped 118mph. I also added a big fmic at the same time, so the mph gain isn't entirely from the smim and cams.

Keep in mind that my trap speed was hurt by the small diameter tires. The tires reduced the effective gearing, so the engine was spinning faster. The datalog of the 118mph run shows me topping out 4th gear at 7300rpm.

Another curious note from the log shows injector DC hovering around 48-51% on 1000cc injectors at 40psi base pressure. Maybe I could've stayed with the stock 450cc injectors at 48psi base pressure? The big fmic let me lean out the fuel settings tremendously.

I'm amazed at how the science behind turbocharged engines shows up in the datalogs.
Airflow, as measured in maf Hz, is a flatline in the logs. I noticed this trend after the 11.67 run, so I did a log to verify it- I did a long pull from 3k rpm to 8500 rpm just to see what airflow Hz did. It was a flatline all the way. Boost went down as rpm went up, but the engine was still using the exact same ammount of air the whole time.

The question that came to me was; How to make more power using the same ammount of air?
Answer: shift VE to higher rpm.
It seems to work. I don't know how high is too high, though. Maybe next season...

 

[SBstar]

That is extremely interesting. My original thoughts were that the 14b wouldn't be able to "keep up" due to the increase in volume. Can you post the slips from the runs both before and after that last set of mods? I agree that the "gains" speak for themselves but in a way I wonder just how much. I'm far from an engineer and understanding and speaking that language. But my simple mind says that having a larger volume to fill, is going to cause the turbo to have to work harder to fill it. Obviously you have to find the perfect "match". I'm thinking something along the lines of an extrude honed 1g IM, and keeping the FMIC piping smaller in order to mate better with what the 14b can push. Someone who understands these things better then me can probably explain why I'm right or wrong.

 

[tkelly27]

From what I understand the larger volumes generally only affect transient boost production. The IC becomes full of boost and as long as it isn't leaking , the only place for the air to go is into the engine, same as with the smaller IC. Pumping losses through the core (boost drop) are generally much less in bigger FMIC.

That is an interesting theory that is clearly working. If I'm getting it right, the turbo will only give you so much air, so change your engine to take more of it. Do you think a 2g or better exhaust manifold might help with that?

 

[pneumo]

From what I understand the larger volumes generally only affect transient boost production. The IC becomes full of boost and as long as it isn't leaking , the only place for the air to go is into the engine, same as with the smaller IC. Pumping losses through the core (boost drop) are generally much less in bigger FMIC.

That's how I see it, too.
I know I don't need 3" IC pipes with a 14b. I ordered the fmic kit with 3" pipes because I was originally using it with a GT35. I also know the 3" pipes don't hurt at this power level either. The big fmic core definately helps make power since the turbo is pushing out some very hot air.

That is an interesting theory that is clearly working. If I'm getting it right, the turbo will only give you so much air, so change your engine to take more of it. Do you think a 2g or better exhaust manifold might help with that?

I think a 2G manifold will make little difference. I measured the runners and the diameter is within 1/2 mm of a 2G manifold. I'd like to try the FP Race mani with an EVO3 O2 housing, and maybe a 7cm housing.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Is using meth considered breaking the rules?
If i was in your spot i would step away from the fmic and the smic...try the icebox for a run...you will gain atleast one more psi of boost...10-20hp...possible all it would take