New English Racing 2.2L 1G auto DSE car - 10.19@134 - NO NITROUS!

[viperlp01]

Low 9 second??? Come the F$$k on..I may as well just get drunk and watch. Ha

It went 9.7s last year with 20psi of tire pressure and a pretty basic eagle rod 2.3L stroker on gate pressure.... This year is a totally different animal. He is making 467 on a dyno jet, just for reference I am making 648 on a mustang....

Regardless good luck! You without a doubt need to push it harder.

 

[SonySlave]

Put that billet converter in your car and watch your horsepower disappear on the dyno. Shoot, if I had a bone stock converter in the car I'd be well in the 550+ range if you took a 15% loss into account, which is a modest estimate considering how loose the converter is. Oh and my car did it on wastegate pressure on Friday as well. Good luck getting that 2.0L to stall that setup even with PI's converter. I hope it works out for you.

This thread wasn't supposed to turn into a d*ck swinging contest. I just wanted to stir up a little friendly rivalry and it's turned into a typical DSM forum pissing match. Arguing about dyno numbers with an automatic... . Which sounds more impressive, since this is where it's going: 10.1 at 26psi on an FP3065 with 475hp and 3000lbs or 9.7 at 45psi on a H1C/HX52 compound turbo setup with 650hp and 3000lbs?

To be completely honest? I could really care less...

 

[viperlp01]

Just trying to stir the pot man. Congrats on the time with the 3065! I am sure it will be a 9 sec car in no time. (btw 9.7 @ 37 psi

 

[SonySlave]

Fair enough. Your profile dyno sheet claims 45psi and I assumed you'd run the same amount at the track. My mistake. I can understand stirring the pot. As I've said, pretty much exactly what I was doing. I just didn't want to turn this into a pissing match where we end up hating each other afterward and a lot of nonsense. I just want to have some fun on the track and then BS and have a beer afterward, regardless of the outcome.

 

[945liter]

Nice, it must come alive so hard, i just saw the DSE rules, looks like almost no limitations i wish i could make it this year :/

 

[SonySlave]

Nice, it must come alive so hard, i just saw the DSE rules, looks like almost no limitations i wish i could make it this year :/

I have yet to drive it in its new form but Lucas says it's a whole new animal to the 330' mark. The car was really lazy in the low end last year. Should be fun.

You're right about the "no-limits". As long as the car has mirrors, headlights, wipers, full body panels, full interior, full exhaust, and no nitrous, there really isn't any limit. It really is a "Shootout-only" class. Most street classes in other events have turbo size limits based on weight, weight limits based on drivetrain configuration, and 99% of the time require NHRA/IHRA safety equipment. Most cars I've seen at the Shootout don't meet the NHRA safety requirements for their E.T. or speed. It's a track rental so most of those rules are thrown out the window. I'm not sure the of legal or insurance liability Dave or the track has if someone was to be seriously injured or killed. My car is currently 100% NHRA legal to 10.0 or 135mph but once I go 9s or 135, which I expect the car to do both by the Shootout, then I won't be legal either just like the majority of the others at the Shootout, so it's a moot point.

When I run other events later in the year like Summer IREV, Sport Compact Fall Nationals, or Import vs Domestics, they aren't going to appreciate it if I run 9s at over 135mph with only a 6-pt roll bar... we'll see.

 

[viperlp01]

http://www.importvsdomestic.com/rulebook/2012/2012_wcf_truestreet_import.pdf

This class is extremely similar to DSE rules. It is a street car class and the lowest level at that.

 

[SonySlave]

http://www.importvsdomestic.com/rulebook/2012/2012_wcf_truestreet_import.pdf

This class is extremely similar to DSE rules. It is a street car class and the lowest level at that.

I'm definitely well aware of the rules for that class as that's the class I'll be running at both Summer IREV and Import vs Domestics. I agree that it is similar but there are enough differences compared to Shootout that I still consider the DSE class unlike any other street class I've ever seen.

- Note the weight requirements based on drive configuration - DSE doesn't have that
- Note the turbo size requirements based on vehicle weight - DSE doesn't have that
- True Street doesn't require a full exhaust on turbo cars - DSE does
- True Street bans straight methanol - DSE does not
- True Street bans dry sumps and mechanical fuel pumps - DSE does not

The list goes on... Plus, MIR events require full IHRA safety gear for the car and driver. You run beyond your car's safety gear and you get caught, you're eliminated. The Shootout pretty much now only requires some parts of the NHRA/IHRA personal safety items like fire jackets, helmets, etc. depending on E.T./MPH but ZERO requirements for the safety equipment on the car. Brad Gary proved that even these AWD machines can crash. He was lucky but there might just be a time where someone might not be so lucky and it will end very badly. I've seen enough drag racing crashes to know that the safety gear on the car and on the human are necessary. I personally feel that because it's an NHRA-sanctioned track that everyone must adhere to the NHRA rulebook. No questions asked. And yes, I do realize what that requirement would do to the attendance of racers at the Shootout, including Dave himself. They wouldn't race.

My point is that none of the street class rules across the community match and some are more strict than others. You just have to adjust based on event, which is annoying but necessary. Everyone will always put their car on the ragged edge of legal based on the rules to gain as much advantage as possible. I have a new cat-back exhaust that I put on the car and the only class that requires it is the DSE class at the Shootout. No other street class at any other event requires a full exhaust on a turbo car. That could be different based on location, obviously. I'm only speaking to the Maryland/New Jersey area.

Everyone has their personal opinions about what makes a "street car" but Dave is the boss for this event and this is what he wants. I want to race in this class and I'll make my car fit.

 

[fastnelson]

nice, congrats.

NBF

 

[SonySlave]

Thanks Nelson! Hope to see the VR4 out again this year!

 

[camfast]

Great job!! Are you staying with the 3065 for a while or maybe upgrade in the future to be more competitive?

 

[SonySlave]

I've had this 3065 for 5 years now and I've never felt I ever even remotely reached its potential. The quickest 3065s I know of were Curt Brown at 9.4 and Lucas English at 9.6. I don't expect to beat those numbers but I do expect to be reliable enough to go rounds which in the DSM world means everything. The Shootout is always a test of reliability and shifting ability. The 5-speed cars always seem to have issues when it matters most. Look at Cory Bowers in the DSE final last year against John. Missed 4th and lost the race. I have the shifting part taken care of now I can only hope everything else stays together while making some 9 second passes. Anyone can break or have problems and lose the race even of they were the fastest or highest powered. Fact of racing.

A 3586 is in my future but I don't expect to buy it this season. Though, I don't know if this 3065 will even survive the beating I plan to give it this season. Even when I do get the bigger turbo I don't know if my setup will stall it without nitrous. It'll all be in testing. We'll see how things go. Maybe I'll be forced to buy a new turbo by year's end and start the testing early... .

 

[viperlp01]

Auto is where it is at. It runs the same number over and over again.

FWIW Cory didn't miss a shift. He tried turning the boost up to run with me and he hit the boost limit on AEM.

I am getting all gitty about DSE this year. I can't wait for this converter to get in to do some testing. I can't wait to see all these 9 sec full exhaust street cars.

Also, I do believe that we should be held to having a cage and fire suit. I spent way to much time and money building a chromoly cage so I can run at my local track and have it not mean a thing at shootout. At least a 6 point like you have. But it is a track rental so anything goes. I just hope people run jackets and helmets this year. I saw people running 10s with no helmet... Kinda sketchy to me.

 

[SonySlave]

Auto is where it is at. It runs the same number over and over again.

FWIW Cory didn't miss a shift. He tried turning the boost up to run with me and he hit the boost limit on AEM.

I am getting all gitty about DSE this year. I can't wait for this converter to get in to do some testing. I can't wait to see all these 9 sec full exhaust street cars.

Also, I do believe that we should be held to having a cage and fire suit. I spent way to much time and money building a chromoly cage so I can run at my local track and have it not mean a thing at shootout. At least a 6 point like you have. But it is a track rental so anything goes. I just hope people run jackets and helmets this year. I saw people running 10s with no helmet... Kinda sketchy to me.

Dave claims that if you don't have the safety gear that you're disqualified. Cory has boost limits? Now that's just silly... My cage is mild steel. Very nice, but heavy. I had it built when I was poor still. I make a little more money nowadays working for Lockheed. Maybe I'll cut it out one day and do the full 10-pt in chromoly though I have my eye on a 3/4 chassis Toyota Starlet that's just begging for a 4G63 RWD swap with a G-Force 5-speed...

Decisions, decisions... haha!

 

[phunny]

I think autos should have a half second penalty and lose 3 "man points."

 

[rhamlinii]

Tim is going to take it. Automatics are hard to spool without spray.

 

[phunny]

Tim is going to take it. Automatics are hard to spool without spray.

Eh, have you even been paying attention to this thread?

Tim is going to take it. Automatics are hard to spool without spray.

Eh, I'm guessing you didn't bother to read the title, pay attention to the fastest cars these days or even read this thread huh?

 

[SonySlave]

I think autos should have a half second penalty and lose 3 "man points."

You know it's Phunny (sorry I had to ), Jeff Bush used to say the same thing back in the day when he still owned your silver car. We used to rip around the Pacific Northwest when we still had manual DSM street cars. It was a lot of fun.

Jeff even said the same when he built his current car back in the day. He was a gear banger through and though. Problem was that when he decided to build drag car and started annihilating manual trannies, both synchro and dog boxes alike, botching launches, and missing shifts every other run, he got sick of it. So he gave the automatic a shot and it sucked. It sucked bad. Broke A LOT. Why? Crappy parts from a certain "sponsor" he had. So he went to a small local tranny shop in Washington State called Metro Transmission said "Go". Put the new Metro trans in the car and instantly went quicker and faster than he ever had before. And he's been laughing all the way to the bank with class winnings ever since.

I decided to follow suit and haven't broken a tranny, missed a shift, broken an axle or transfer case in 3 years. Guaranteed, not one DSM 5-speed racer can claim the same. Not even the big boys at all the big DSM/Evo shops. Not STM, not Devin Schultz, not Tim Zimmer, not even John Wigger, etc. Yet they all continue to run them and on occasion, run the big numbers. Devin is the only one that I see that's ever really consistent with his shifting. I don't claim to be faster than them because I'm not. Not even close. But, a reliable 10.0/9.9 automatic that never misses a shift and rarely breaks parts that goes rounds can beat a 1000hp 5-speed car based on probability alone. Not every time, but the chances are good.

Tim is going to take it. Automatics are hard to spool without spray.

Tim sure as hell better beat me. He's making 900hp! But he has to be able to get out of the hole and hit every shift and not break or he's done. He hasn't had great reliability at the Shootout the last few years IIRC. Nothing against him or the car. It's impressive on the dyno. All the big turbo 5-speeds are. But you have to make it down the track first, every time, because the reliability of the automatics is no joke, even if they are "slower".

 

[phunny]

Sony I completely agree, I've been getting my parts list ready so when this tranny gives up ill have the auto ready :/. I've seen too many guys dump way too much money into the 5 speeds.

 

[rhamlinii]

Eh, have you even been paying attention to this thread?



Eh, I'm guessing you didn't bother to read the title, pay attention to the fastest cars these days or even read this thread huh?

I've been paying attention to the thread, and the contents of the information. The fact is, STICK cars are still faster and still the fastest. Turbo for turbo, the 3065 is not a big turbo. As it stands, he could throw a little more boost at it, but his setup is pretty much maxed out. It's a great car, and I didn't mean any disrespect towards the OP. What makes DSE a great class, is that it's intended for REAL street cars. Big turbos without nitrous just isn't competitve.......PERIOD. Big power cars aren't relieable. This class is about compromises, and alot of people has a shot to win it. I wish everyone the best of luck, manily to all of my Maryland guy's and gal's. Looking at everything as far as times and overall setup's. I think Tim, will make the fastest pass. I just hope it stays together. Just because Auto's "work", doesn't mean they're for everyone either.

 

[SonySlave]

I've been paying attention to the thread, and the contents of the information. The fact is, STICK cars are still faster and still the fastest. Turbo for turbo, the 3065 is not a big turbo. As it stands, he could throw a little more boost at it, but his setup is pretty much maxed out. It's a great car, and I didn't mean any disrespect towards the OP. What makes DSE a great class, is that it's intended for REAL street cars. Big turbos without nitrous just isn't competitve.......PERIOD. Big power cars aren't relieable. This class is about compromises, and alot of people has a shot to win it. I wish everyone the best of luck, manily to all of my Maryland guy's and gal's. Looking at everything as far as times and overall setup's. I think Tim, will make the fastest pass. I just hope it stays together. Just because Auto's "work", doesn't mean they're for everyone either.

Ok lets break this down, shall we?

The fact is, STICK cars are still faster and still the fastest.

This is a fact right now. I say it that way because none of the automatic cars in the DSE class have been as quick or as fast as the 5-speed cars like Tim Zimmer have been, in the past. That could very well change at any point. John Whalen and John Wood (JohnnyTSi) have shown big turbo automatics can stall up without nitrous and run a big number. Deric Dupey showed a "small" turbo automatic can run a big number as well. Plus, they do it nearly every single pass they run. I have watched countless 700-1000hp 5-speed DSMs and Evos crap out on the line or miss a shift and lose to a car that's slower. The Shootout is a train wreck of missed shifts and shitty launches by huge horsepower 5-speed cars. Tim Zimmer, John Wigger, and STM are no exception.

Turbo for turbo, the 3065 is not a big turbo. As it stands, he could throw a little more boost at it, but his setup is pretty much maxed out. It's a great car, and I didn't mean any disrespect towards the OP.

Thanks for the compliment and no offense taken. I've never claimed to be the quickest or fastest car out there. Not once. And you're right, my setup is nearing its maximum output. However, I've stressed the reliability and consistency point. If I can run a 9.7-9.8 and run it every single pass, I'll be extremely competitive in this class. I can run a 1.5x 60' nearly every pass without much effort. It's tough to botch launches with a well-setup automatic.

What makes DSE a great class, is that it's intended for REAL street cars.

Automatics may not be as "fun" as 5-speeds on the street but that's 100% debatable and dependent on the person driving. Plus there is not one reason why a big turbo automatic can't be driven on the street on a daily basis. JohnnyTSi can do it, John Whalen can do it as he pointed above. Technology is changing and suddenly these big turbo automatics are stalling up without nitrous. JohnnyTSi is stalling an FP3586HTA with a Kiggly MIVEC setup in less than 2 seconds. Plus, this is a drag racing event. Bring whatever car is going to be consistent and reliable enough to go rounds and win the entire event... not just make one great pass in qualifying. People in this class are always scheming to gain any advantage they can while meeting the rules requirement. That's racing for you. Formula 1 is exactly the same way.

Big turbos without nitrous just isn't competitve.......PERIOD.

I seem to remember John handily wiping out the DSE field last year with his big turbo automatic without nitrous. I seem to remember JohnnyTSi winning the FIS class at the Seattle IFO event last month and the Spokane IFO event last year. Hmm...

Big power cars aren't relieable.

This is true... to a point. I can't recall many motor failures in the DSE class. Even the 700-900hp cars weren't really breaking motors. But, what were they breaking??? Transfer cases, transmissions, front/rear axles, and rear ends. All things that the automatics rarely break. I'd guess 95% of the broken cars in the class were 5-speeds breaking drivetrain parts. You can fight me on this all you want but do your research and you'll see I'm right. I have over 150 passes in the 10.1-10.5 range over the last 3 years and I haven't broken a single drivetrain part in the 3 years I have been automatic and let's be honest, low-mid 10s at 3000lbs nearly every single pass isn't a trivial feat.

This class is about compromises, and alot of people has a shot to win it.

Absolutely, because racing is unpredictable. My fuel pumps could crap out and leave me stranded. Or a coil pack. Or a cam angle sensor. Or even a drivetrain part. It can happen, yes. But I have spares of everything. I can only hope that if I break, it's only in qualifying.

I think Tim, will make the fastest pass. I just hope it stays together.

I agree with you 100%. The only thing about that, as I've eluded to above, is that he'll need to run the fastest pass every single time or his chances are slim to win the class overall. Again, the quickest/fastest pass (and notice I said pass, singular) doesn't win the class overall.

Just because Auto's "work", doesn't mean they're for everyone either.

Yeah that's true as well. Automatics aren't for everyone. But again, this is a drag racing event and automatics are way more reliable and consistent in drag racing. Period.

So, what's my real point to all of this, you ask? My real point is that if you want to race in a "real" street car class, then go run Max Effort. Street cars are required to do a lot more than go in a straight line. They have to go around corners and use the brakes. They have to manage their setups based on the conditions. DSM Eliminator isn't a street car class. It's Quick 16 with full interiors, full exhausts, and no nitrous. Period. It is what it is...

 

[Doubleot]

^^^^^ winning

 

[94awdcoupe]

^^^^^ winning

whining

 

[rhamlinii]

Ok lets break this down, shall we?


This is a fact right now. I say it that way because none of the automatic cars in the DSE class have been as quick or as fast as the 5-speed cars like Tim Zimmer have been, in the past. That could very well change at any point. John Whalen and John Wood (JohnnyTSi) have shown big turbo automatics can stall up without nitrous and run a big number. Deric Dupey showed a "small" turbo automatic can run a big number as well. Plus, they do it nearly every single pass they run. I have watched countless 700-1000hp 5-speed DSMs and Evos crap out on the line or miss a shift and lose to a car that's slower. The Shootout is a train wreck of missed shifts and shitty launches by huge horsepower 5-speed cars. Tim Zimmer, John Wigger, and STM are no exception.


Thanks for the compliment and no offense taken. I've never claimed to be the quickest or fastest car out there. Not once. And you're right, my setup is nearing its maximum output. However, I've stressed the reliability and consistency point. If I can run a 9.7-9.8 and run it every single pass, I'll be extremely competitive in this class. I can run a 1.5x 60' nearly every pass without much effort. It's tough to botch launches with a well-setup automatic.


Automatics may not be as "fun" as 5-speeds on the street but that's 100% debatable and dependent on the person driving. Plus there is not one reason why a big turbo automatic can't be driven on the street on a daily basis. JohnnyTSi can do it, John Whalen can do it as he pointed above. Technology is changing and suddenly these big turbo automatics are stalling up without nitrous. JohnnyTSi is stalling an FP3586HTA with a Kiggly MIVEC setup in less than 2 seconds. Plus, this is a drag racing event. Bring whatever car is going to be consistent and reliable enough to go rounds and win the entire event... not just make one great pass in qualifying. People in this class are always scheming to gain any advantage they can while meeting the rules requirement. That's racing for you. Formula 1 is exactly the same way.


I seem to remember John handily wiping out the DSE field last year with his big turbo automatic without nitrous. I seem to remember JohnnyTSi winning the FIS class at the Seattle IFO event last month and the Spokane IFO event last year. Hmm...


This is true... to a point. I can't recall many motor failures in the DSE class. Even the 700-900hp cars weren't really breaking motors. But, what were they breaking??? Transfer cases, transmissions, front/rear axles, and rear ends. All things that the automatics rarely break. I'd guess 95% of the broken cars in the class were 5-speeds breaking drivetrain parts. You can fight me on this all you want but do your research and you'll see I'm right. I have over 150 passes in the 10.1-10.5 range over the last 3 years and I haven't broken a single drivetrain part in the 3 years I have been automatic and let's be honest, low-mid 10s at 3000lbs nearly every single pass isn't a trivial feat.


Absolutely, because racing is unpredictable. My fuel pumps could crap out and leave me stranded. Or a coil pack. Or a cam angle sensor. Or even a drivetrain part. It can happen, yes. But I have spares of everything. I can only hope that if I break, it's only in qualifying.


I agree with you 100%. The only thing about that, as I've eluded to above, is that he'll need to run the fastest pass every single time or his chances are slim to win the class overall. Again, the quickest/fastest pass (and notice I said pass, singular) doesn't win the class overall.


Yeah that's true as well. Automatics aren't for everyone. But again, this is a drag racing event and automatics are way more reliable and consistent in drag racing. Period.

So, what's my real point to all of this, you ask? My real point is that if you want to race in a "real" street car class, then go run Max Effort. Street cars are required to do a lot more than go in a straight line. They have to go around corners and use the brakes. They have to manage their setups based on the conditions. DSM Eliminator isn't a street car class. It's Quick 16 with full interiors, full exhausts, and no nitrous. Period. It is what it is...

They're only a few cars that have been mid 9's or faster with a single power adder in a automatic DSM. John Wood is more of the exception, then what is called normal. I've read about his setup on Nabr, and it sounds great. He put in alot of time, money, and effort to make that work. I'm can't wait to see how the compound turbo will do, but i'm also wondering how much more RPM that car has left with his motor? I know "why" you built your car, and yes it is and has been very consitant and relieable. For reference big turbo cars, are 67mm turbo's or bigger. I'm not going to turn this into another 5spd vs. auto debate. Only time will tell, how it will work itself out. Let the best man win. Someimes, 3 out of 100 is all you need.

 

[99gst_racer]

I've been paying attention to the thread, and the contents of the information. The fact is, STICK cars are still faster and still the fastest.

Of course they're faster. M/T's always trap higher. Or did you also mean quicker? Lots of quick autos out there these days. Even the 16G record is held by an auto. And if I remember correctly, the autos were taking home the trophys at last year's SO.