Mutt Turbo vs. Green & Red ... Please help

[NosLaser]

Oh, just an FYI. Keith a.k.a. Tractionless has rather recently hooked up with us South Florida boys, and he has a Green Turbo on his car. We recently helped him through an engine rebuild, and over the next coming months, we are going to help him make some stupid horsepower. I'd like to see him make more than any other Green out there. The point? I'm friends with the guys at DSM-Performance, and he has a Green on his car. I'm into making F-ING horsepower, and going fast, not having little hissy fits over who's better or worse. I personally think the Mutt is a better turbo, but if I had a Green, it wouldn't be a bad second choice, and I WOULD make big power on it, as I know Keith is going to. Stop whining and arguing, and go make some power.

Regards,

 

[BatmanGSX]

Originally posted by jdmawd
i don't think i have ever heard a *ACTUAL* mutt or green owner, speak bad about the other vender. its always those who have *NOTHING*

I have an FP turbo.

 

[IPT]

Well since the **** is getting deep here I just thought I would throw out some food for thought...


Why does the internal wastegate work sooo GREAT on the Mutts and not really on the Green??

I have seen both and the it looked to me that the actuators are the same part numbers. What makes one work and not the other then?? Center section, port work, turbine wheels, the whole turbo?? What??

 

[jdmawd]

I have an FP turbo.

this thread is about MUTTS and GREENS. you don't make, own, or sell any of the turbos in question. you're opinions mean nothing (enjoy)

Why does the internal wastegate work sooo GREAT on the Mutts and not really on the Green??

also the FP turbo uses a 34mm flapper, the MUTT's use a 39

 

[IPT]

Not all mutts use the 39mm wastegate. Most only have the 34mm..

 

[jdmawd]

all the new ones have 39's but i could be wrong

 

[IPT]

I will call and ask for sure on the wastegate size, but even then why wouldn't FP just make a larger wastegate also?? It is not that hard to turn out a flapper disc on a lath.

 

[NosLaser]

Kill me...

 

[Ludachris]

Oh my god. I can't believe this is carrying on as much as it is..... thanks to both shops for at least stepping back and letting it go. I hope everyone else will do the same.

 

[Ludachris]

And please everyone, keep all complaints about vendors and other websites off the forums.

 

[NDgsx]

Originally posted by IPT
Well since the **** is getting deep here I just thought I would throw out some food for thought...


Why does the internal wastegate work sooo GREAT on the Mutts and not really on the Green??

I have seen both and the it looked to me that the actuators are the same part numbers. What makes one work and not the other then?? Center section, port work, turbine wheels, the whole turbo?? What??

I was pretty sure that FP used mitsu acuators and that dsmperf used garret acuators. There aren't different springs available for the mitsu acuators. If you use a wastegate larger than 34mm the acuator is not strong enough to stay closed with the greater exhaust pressure (from having a larger surface area on the flapper).
The turbine side on the green is very free flowing, the exhaust wants to flow in the easiest direction. Without as much pressure it is happy to go straight to the turbine instead of making that 90 degree corner into the wastegate passage.

[edit] tell Keith that tach I sent him is a 25psi tach, he can't run 15psi anymore [edit]

 

[IPT]

That makes some sense.. But does not the port work have a good deal to do with the air flow out of the wastegate hole. Most of the port jobs I have seen almost make the port to the wastegate like a shelf that sticks out into the exhaust stream. That would then collect the air and make it easier to travel around the turbine wheel.

 

[IPT]

One more thing has any one checked the backpressure that they are getting from any of these turbos?? All you have to do is hook up a boost gauge to the exhaust manifold. (usually at the egt probe) I was thinking of doing this when I get my car back together. You have to get a copper line to go to the EGT location to help dissipate the heat from the exhaust.

Could other people do this I would like to get a better idea of how free flowing these turbos are.

 

[HighPsi91]

All the debate over turbos is senseless. Mutts, Franks, FP's they are all the same. Mitsu/garrett hybrids were developed to satisfy those looking for easy bolt on and cost effective "race" turbos. They are all made from more or less the same parts. The importance isnt in whose name is on the turbo but rather how well matched the turbo is for your particular application. Choosing the correctly sized turbo is paramount to great results. I use a straight Garrett to make more than 500whp. If I were to switch to a Red I would still make 500+whp. And if I were to bolt on a properly sized Mutt I would still lay down over 500whp. Hp numbers and track times dont care what name parts are on your car. The turbo is only a part of the power puzzle. The rest of the equation is what seperate the men from the boys (as the saying goes).

 

[IPT]

Here is an email that I got from Dave Hall down at Extreme Turbo about there wastagates in their turbos. This should help explain the 34mm - 39mm flapper sizes.


We initially built our Level 4-7 1st generation (TD06H Mitsu cartridge)
Turbos with a 39 mm flapper. After moving to the newer Garrett version we
have found that only the 34 mm flappers were necessary. "Rule of Thumb" is
more Turbine Wheel means you need less Wastegate. You may be surprised to
know that even Jeff Elliot's ETE73 with the T4 Turbine Wheel only sports the
34 mm flapper. Know anyone that may want to buy my old Tial Ext Wastegate?


David Hall
1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
www.dsm-performance.com

 

[IPT]

Originally posted by NDgsx


I was pretty sure that FP used mitsu acuators and that dsmperf used garret acuators. There aren't different springs available for the mitsu acuators. If you use a wastegate larger than 34mm the acuator is not strong enough to stay closed with the greater exhaust pressure (from having a larger surface area on the flapper).
The turbine side on the green is very free flowing, the exhaust wants to flow in the easiest direction. Without as much pressure it is happy to go straight to the turbine instead of making that 90 degree corner into the wastegate passage.

I did some checking today and FP does use Garrett Actuators on the Greens.

One thing that does not make sense to me is that you say the Turbine side is free flowing. If you are thinking about the exhaust taking the path of least resisitance then would it not be easier for the exhaust gases to go out a hole instead of having to pass thru the blades on the turbine.

Also if the Exhaust is TOO free flow does that not hurt your throttle reponse and increase lag??

 

[NDgsx]

The turbine wheel is the path of least resistance when it is passing the WG passage. Flowing into the bell part of the housing part of the gas immediatly hits the wheel and some goes around the housing. That's a lot easier than making a sudden 90 degree corner.

Ideally you would have no ridge on the bottom of the WG passage, this would help to achieve laminar flow.

Yes less backpressure will increase lag, but it will also increase top end power. If you can get to the point where the backpressure in your exhaust manifold is less than the boost pressure in your intake manifold you can see VERY large gains in power.
It's all about your specific comonation and what you want to do with your car.

 

[HighPsi91]

Originally posted by NDgsx
Yes less backpressure will increase lag, but it will also increase top end power. If you can get to the point where the backpressure in your exhaust manifold is less than the boost pressure in your intake manifold you can see VERY large gains in power.
It's all about your specific comonation and what you want to do with your car.

Are you sure its even possible to have lower pressure in the turbine side than the compressor side? I am having a hard time visualising that.

 

[IPT]

With proper porting there is no 90 degree corner that the gases have to take. There should be an easy transition to the wastegate passage, which leads to better flow out of the wastegate, if it is open.

Ok lets make up some numbers and think of it that way.

Lets say that you are at the track running 20 psi of boost. You are getting 30 psi of back pressure. That make it a 1:1.5 ratio (which is great for throttle reponse and good power production)

With air the pressure is constant thru out the the whole turbine housing. There is 30 psi on the turbine wheel and 30 psi coming out the wastegate. All that air is backed up in the turbine housing flowing were ever it can go with the least resistance.

Now when you say that the turbine wheel is the path of least resistance.. How do you know?? Is there some way to measure where the air is being routed to??


Lastly. There can be great gains in power when you hit the crossover point where the backpressure is lower than the manifold pressure, But there are not many if any that have that type of setup on a DSM. The throttle response would be none existant if you could even spool. With 2.0-2.3L of displacement and usually 9.0:1 compression does not have much exhaust energy to spool a turbo with that manifold to backpressure ratio.

 

[NDgsx]

Originally posted by IPT
With proper porting there is no 90 degree corner that the gases have to take. There should be an easy transition to the wastegate passage, which leads to better flow out of the wastegate, if it is open.

Now when you say that the turbine wheel is the path of least resistance.. How do you know?? Is there some way to measure where the air is being routed to??


Lastly. There can be great gains in power when you hit the crossover point where the backpressure is lower than the manifold pressure, But there are not many if any that have that type of setup on a DSM. The throttle response would be none existant if you could even spool. With 2.0-2.3L of displacement and usually 9.0:1 compression does not have much exhaust energy to spool a turbo with that manifold to backpressure ratio.

Ugh ok so it's a radiused edge, but it is still forcing the exhaust gas to change overall direction 90 degrees. Farther down the turbine housing it has a much larger radius to follow. Just think of it as water and think which way the water would go.
Yes you can port out the WG area to have that "ledge", but that should be a last resort.

Yes, if you are getting boost creep than more air is going through the turbine wheel than the WG is bypassing.

So you're saying that the collector areas of our manifolds are designed well and that making a real header would not reduce backpressure at all? If we had headers with a well designed collector backpressure could be reduced considerably without actually changing the turbo itself.
Now would this be cost effective for 99% of dsmers? Hell no, but just because no one is really doing that right now does not mean it is not possible.
With a good equal length header, split pulse turbine housing, and a garret GT turbo you probably do it and still have good throtle response.
Think outside the box

 

[IPT]

Originally posted by NDgsx


Ugh ok so it's a radiused edge, but it is still forcing the exhaust gas to change overall direction 90 degrees. Farther down the turbine housing it has a much larger radius to follow. Just think of it as water and think which way the water would go.
Yes you can port out the WG area to have that "ledge", but that should be a last resort.

Yes, if you are getting boost creep than more air is going through the turbine wheel than the WG is bypassing.

The ways to rid of the boost creep is port work (has to be done correctly) or larger wastegate to bypass more air. OK

Now I am thinking like the air is water. As the water goes down the turbine housing it is a larger radius, but it also gets smaller as it goes around. Which creates pressure and the water will start to backup to the point of the wastegate and spill out there.

The Air (water) as it goes around the radius is bleeding out thru the blades of the turbine wheel or if the wheel has been clipped around the blades all together (which is not the best because that causes the turbo to loss effiency). This is where it starts to get really crazy. How do you tell how much air is going thru the blades??

 

[HighPsi91]

Originally posted by IPT


The ways to rid of the boost creep is port work (has to be done correctly) or larger wastegate to bypass more air. OK

A given turbine wheel in a given turbine housing will require a certain level of exhaust pressure to spin the impeller fast enough to produce the desired boost level. If the wastegate is unable to maintain that level of exhaust pressure you will end up with boost creep. In some and I feel, in most cases an even better method to prevent boost creep is to choose a better turbine housing/wheel combination.

 

[IPT]

So it all ends up needing to be matched together. So if something is not matched correctly then the whole thing might not work or something extra needs to be done to help even out the mismatched parts.

 

[Tractionless]

Heard through the grapevine that someone was layin' down some smack and had to come out from under my NABR, FP rock to see what it is all about!!!

I agree with Aslan about DSM'ers not trying new things. I disagree with not being able to go 10's on the stock fuel system and an AFC. See there was this little guy in NC by the name of Blaha!!! I believe he went 10.5 on a FP Red and 10.8 on a FP Green. Nope he never bolted a Mutt on either to see if there was any gains.

What have I tried? 3 FMIC's, 4 Turbos, Old AFC, NEW AFC, PMS, Blaha Mas, Self hacked MAS, Denso pump, Supra pump, 264 in. cam, 272 in cam, 3 sets of front street tires, 2 different size slicks, 2 different injector sizes. Can't say I haven't experimented with different parts at the same position, oh yeah just ordered a 2g MAS today. I want to go AEM, but that doesn't come out until Sep for 1g's + who the hell wants to boot up a laptop in order to subtract 2% fuel from idle?!?! AND GET THIS I WILL BOLT ON A COMPETATORS TURBO TO SEE WHAT IT DOES!!! I will not pay for it but if you all want it solved lets have at it!! If someone wants it solved they will step to the plate and offer it up.

The car is FP Green equipped right now. With a stock motor other than 264/272, Fidanza Flywheel, and balance shafts removed. PMS for tuning, 660cc injectors, supra pump, fmic, 2600, see the webpage for the rest. On 15psi and pump gas, 43 cts knock and 11 deg advance timing this FWD weighing 3030# went 12.1@112mph. PS that is spinning 1,2,3 on 7.5psi LARGE slicks. When a Mutt does that you can talk your ****, until then keep wrenching and stop whining.

www.tractionless.freeservers.com

Regards
Keith
Tractionless
........I see the snide remarks on their way right now ahhaahhaah

 

[jdmawd]

AND GET THIS I WILL BOLT ON A COMPETATORS TURBO TO SEE WHAT IT DOES!!! I will not pay for it but if you all want it solved lets have at it!! If someone wants it solved they will step to the plate and offer it up.

:laugh: dude no one is going to buy you a turbo, so you can test it. either buy the turbo and test it or dont.