Methonal Injection

[1991_talon]

I run 23 psi on 93 octane on my current setup considering purchasing a methonal injection kit. I have several questions. Is it realistic for daily driving? How much water/ethonal would I typically go through (I get on it quite a bit but not enough to abuse the car)? Would I need a new tune before I turned up the boost?
- Thanks.

 

[turbo tim1]

I'm not understanding why the OP starting a new thread to begin with... Theirs plenty to Read on here about methanol which from the sounds of a few people should be doing... As-well OP in the end it's Really gonna come down to your decision on whether to run it or not.

OP I would suggest looking into e85 IMO... I myself believe it's a better option since theirs less to go wrong and your not dealing with Duel fueling,Fail safes, Et Cetera. But I'm biased and I'm sure the next guy that runs meth Injection will say to run it...

I would have to say though with meth injection something as simple as a Hobbs switch failing could cost you a rod out the side of the block...it's best to know not just the benefits of something but the risks...

Can you explain how a failed hobb switch will cause a hydro lock.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Since you run meth injection I'll answer you question with another question...an let you figure it out on your own.

Do you know what can happen when one of your sources of fuel disappears suddenly?

 

[turbo tim1]

Since you run meth injection I'll answer you question with another question...an let you figure it out on your own.

Do you know what can happen when one of your sources of fuel disappears suddenly?

ya I do and it dosn't cause a rod to window the block.

+ you know when it is working and when it is not, there is an led to tell you it is functioning.

also you should have and a/f gauge that will also tell you.

+ that safe injection will shut your extra boost down if there is a problem.

The one more thing to go wrong argument is week and does not out weigh the benefit. after all you could go lean if your pump started to fail or your fp regulator let go or your map/maf quit or your tps quit. any thing could go wrong causing a blown engine.

It's just less likely when you have a water meth to act as a buffer.

 

[LiquidX]

Tim, yes the water steam cleans and lowers the IAT amount but the methanol is what supresses knock/detonation by raising the octane. I don't understand why you are trying to argue as there was nothing even said on my part from the get go for you to start arguing with me and contradicting or tying to contradict what I would say.

As far as the LED, that's ONLY if you get a low level switch WITH indicating light, clogged nozzle warning light, a progressive controller that includes a warning light, etc. A standard HOBBS switch (like my setup) comes with nothing. It's a simply on/off system with no warning other than my CEL will come on if there is 2*+ timing retardation via knock sensor pickup.

BTW, how would a failed TPS cause a blown engine?

 

[turbo tim1]

Tim, yes the water steam cleans and lowers the IAT amount but the methanol is what supresses knock/detonation by raising the octane. I don't understand why you are trying to argue as there was nothing even said on my part from the get go for you to start arguing with me and contradicting or tying to contradict what I would say.

As far as the LED, that's ONLY if you get a low level switch WITH indicating light, clogged nozzle warning light, a progressive controller that includes a warning light, etc. A standard HOBBS switch (like my setup) comes with nothing. It's a simply on/off system with no warning other than my CEL will come on if there is 2*+ timing retardation via knock sensor pickup.

BTW, how would a failed TPS cause a blown engine?

Sorry I was arguing with my1gdsm, yes I know the meth slows the burn of fuel, water also slows the burn of fuel I am not saying what you are doing is wrong, that is just your preference. For me being a technician and seeing the cleaning effects of water and the lower egt's, Iat's and no carbon in the combustion chamber I choose to keep water in the mix. But remember I don't use water meth as a way to make more hp with timing, I tune like I don't have it then I add it, this gives me a huge safety buffer zone. Yes the way I use it declines my power a bit but I am willing to sacrifice that 20 + hp I would get if I tuned for it, for the safety of my engine.

I have also had a single stage kit that has an on off switch, my kit came with an led to tell you when the pump turned on. you have to add the safety features if you want them. I have had nozzles clog in the past with no safety features, but when I am on it I am constantly scanning my a/f and listening to the engine. You will see your A/F go lean on the gauge if there is a problem and if you are listening you will hear knock, then you get your foot out of it.
Yes that is crude but it works, Shortly after that experience I wired in a knock light and that seems to work pretty good, but that was along time ago before all the new safety features you can now get.

If your tps has a dead spot it will cause a lean condition because the ecm doesn't know how much the throttle is open and this is part of it's calculation for the fuel table. But that being said I have never seen a dead spot at full throttle, all the ones I have seen have been between 1/4 to 1/2 throttle. If you were boosting in this dead spot and had knock because of a lean condition you could break rings, it is a possibility with many many other that can cause engine damage. Fact is if it is a boosted engine the potential for some thing to go wrong causing a blown engine is much higher.

 

[LiquidX]

You do realize I personally never said to use straight meth. The discussion was about straight alky as fuel. I use 31% meth by weight and the rest is water.

You must have been using a small nozzle by the way you were running then. In your case a smaller meth content would be more beneficial so you dont go too rich without the tune. Me, I'm throwing on a 10gph nozzle for what I'm trying to do.

I'm fully aware of how both water and alcohols work when entering the intake system at varying points. Water will pull for heat from the air but methanol will vaporize and make a denser richer charge. Pre turbo injection let's the turbo spool faster and output a denser colder charge.

I'm sure you are aware of all of that. As per the kit you recieved, was that standard or optional? How old is that kit?

Trust me, when I hammer on it I keep an eye on my wideband and my CEL. That's all the warning I need.

I appologize if we got off on this wrong. The way you were talking was in a way that made it seem I wasn't aware of what even I am using.

 

[turbo tim1]

You do realize I personally never said to use straight meth. The discussion was about straight alky as fuel. I use 31% meth by weight and the rest is water.

You must have been using a small nozzle by the way you were running then. In your case a smaller meth content would be more beneficial so you dont go too rich without the tune. Me, I'm throwing on a 10gph nozzle for what I'm trying to do.

I'm fully aware of how both water and alcohols work when entering the intake system at varying points. Water will pull for heat from the air but methanol will vaporize and make a denser richer charge. Pre turbo injection let's the turbo spool faster and output a denser colder charge.

I'm sure you are aware of all of that. As per the kit you recieved, was that standard or optional? How old is that kit?

Trust me, when I hammer on it I keep an eye on my wideband and my CEL. That's all the warning I need.

I appologize if we got off on this wrong. The way you were talking was in a way that made it seem I wasn't aware of what even I am using.

I am sorry if I came off as condescending, I was only trying to show my view and misunderstood yours.
The first kit I bought from snow was in 02 and there were not extra features to my knowledge. I upgraded my kit in 05 and 07 to newer controllers and there was optional safety features at that time.
Snow measures there jets in milliliters per minute, I would run a 375 ml jet on most of my cars. It does change your air fuel by almost 1 full point and I would typically not tune for that because I was usually running 12 at wot Then with the meth on it would be 11 to 11.2.

I have never tried pre turbo injection for fear that water would collect in the inter cooler, and could potentially cause a hydro lock if enough built up, however to build up enough is unlikely. I always did pre throttle body injection, except for one car where I did multi port. One jet in each runner, that car was tuned with for a second fuel source because I was supplementing alot of meth for gas. It worked pretty good.

 

[MY1GDSM]

So basically you use yours to steam clean your motor and don't put it to any REAL use? Besides that?

I doubt their many people on here that use their methanol injection in the same manner as you...Or atleast the from what I'm gathering.

So using Your examples of what "isn't" gonna go wrong is a pretty bad example...
An since when is knowing when something is working or not a fail safe? unless something happens beside you Knowing it's not gonna make much of a difference.

Also I think you missed the point that I wasn't comparing Gas&Methanol Injection vs Gas alone But Gas&Meth injection Vs. E85 which I'll give you a brake. since I don't expect you have any experience using, being your in canada... Just an assumption which I try not to do but if I'm wrong...my bad.

IMHO your giving some crappy advice and basically telling people that their is no risk in running Meth injecting which sure if you know what your doing an you put in place safe guards nothing Should go wrong. But Still theirs plenty of people out there that have rev'd it a tiny bit to far or missed a gear and been spraying enough to do your "imposable" an made a new access hole in the block.

Again I was comparing to running E85... So ya I my mind the way your talking about using meth would be akin to running 15psi on e85 IHO...Just don't see the point...

I think Maybe if you didn't look at it as an augment you would stop and think about what I was getting at... .I'm not saying it pointless I'm not saying don't run it.
I'm saying to the OP make an informed decision based off of everything and to fully understand it...

I don't think turning into "A tps could do this" is helping the OP do that. I'm not arguing with you if you want say my "argument is week" do it all you want but the fact is it wasn't an argument. I was just trying do as I said above... If you would like I can make a stronger one theirs plenty of other Hypothetical I could come up with in need be... But again I'm not trying to argue

 

[turbo tim1]

So basically you use yours to steam clean your motor and don't put it to any REAL use? Besides that?

I doubt their many people on here that use their methanol injection in the same manner as you...Or atleast the from what I'm gathering.

So using Your examples of what "isn't" gonna go wrong is a pretty bad example...
An since when is knowing when something is working or not a fail safe? unless something happens beside you Knowing it's not gonna make much of a difference.

Also I think you missed the point that I wasn't comparing Gas&Methanol Injection vs Gas alone But Gas&Meth injection Vs. E85 which I'll give you a brake. since I don't expect you have any experience using, being your in canada... Just an assumption which I try not to do but if I'm wrong...my bad.

IMHO your giving some crappy advice and basically telling people that their is no risk in running Meth injecting which sure if you know what your doing an you put in place safe guards nothing Should go wrong. But Still theirs plenty of people out there that have rev'd it a tiny bit to far or missed a gear and been spraying enough to do your "imposable" an made a new access hole in the block.

Again I was comparing to running E85... So ya I my mind the way your talking about using meth would be akin to running 15psi on e85 IHO...Just don't see the point...

I think Maybe if you didn't look at it as an augment you would stop and think about what I was getting at... .I'm not saying it pointless I'm not saying don't run it.
I'm saying to the OP make an informed decision based off of everything and to fully understand it...

I don't think turning into "A tps could do this" is helping the OP do that. I'm not arguing with you if you want say my "argument is week" do it all you want but the fact is it wasn't an argument. I was just trying do as I said above... If you would like I can make a stronger one theirs plenty of other Hypothetical I could come up with in need be... But again I'm not trying to argue

I don't even know what to say to that, what I was getting from you was water meth injection is bad because you will blow a rod through your block if it fails.

I would like it if you would explain this statement.

" But Still theirs plenty of people out there that have rev'd it a tiny bit to far or missed a gear and been spraying enough to do your "imposable" an made a new access hole in the block."

I don't see the logic in water meth causing a rod to go through the block because it was spraying when some one over revved there engine.
unless of course you had a garden hose spraying water in your intake, .

Yes I have heard of e85 and we don't have it here, sure it might be cheaper but you have to use nearly twice as much to do the same amount of work. Ya you can run more timing and boost than you can with gasoline, In my opinion it would not be cost effective. I don't know for sure but I am willing to bet you have to run a much larger fuel injector, 2 more fuel pumps that are e85 resistant (I have heard there are some corrosion issues) and a larger fuel line.

e85 Is not something I would consider practical especially with short fuel tank range and you probly can't buy it every were like gasoline.

If it works for you all the power to ya.
I will stick to the meth injection.

 

[MY1GDSM]

I would like it if you would explain this statement.

" But Still theirs plenty of people out there that have rev'd it a tiny bit to far or missed a gear and been spraying enough to do your "imposable" an made a new access hole in the block."

I don't see the logic in water meth causing a rod to go through the block because it was spraying when some one over revved there engine.
unless of course you had a garden hose spraying water in your intake, .

Really?

Buy all mean that what I was implying In-part... .
Take into consideration that Not everyone out their sprays only a small amount...In contrast to what you spray what someone else is may be just that. You do realize what I was impaling buy saying hitting your rev limit? and what takes place when you do? Just asking... .

Yes I have heard of e85 and we don't have it here, sure it might be cheaper but you have to use nearly twice as much to do the same amount of work. Ya you can run more timing and boost than you can with gasoline, In my opinion it would not be cost effective. I don't know for sure but I am willing to bet you have to run a much larger fuel injector, 2 more fuel pumps that are e85 resistant (I have heard there are some corrosion issues) and a larger fuel line.

e85 Is not something I would consider practical especially with short fuel tank range and you probably can't buy it every were like gasoline.

If it works for you all the power to ya.
I will stick to the meth injection.

And you can buy in the US Methanol so many more places?

Those figures are a bit excecive... and it really depends on your goals anyway.

Your untitled to your opinion...

But, I would much rather have race gas at nearly the end cost of price of pump gas who cars if I could have gone an extra 50 miles on a Tank without filing up again. Who really lets their tank get that low anyway or for that matter worries about their range in any kind performance oriented car...

Also 99% of the corrosion stories are either Hearsay or plain BS.

 

[turbo tim1]

Really?

Buy all mean that what I was implying In-part... .
Take into consideration that Not everyone out their sprays only a small amount...In contrast to what you spray what someone else is may be just that. You do realize what I was impaling buy saying hitting your rev limit? and what takes place when you do? Just asking... .




And you can buy in the US Methanol so many more places?

Those figures are a bit excecive... and it really depends on your goals anyway.

Your untitled to your opinion...

But, I would much rather have race gas at nearly the end cost of price of pump gas who cars if I could have gone an extra 50 miles on a Tank without
filing up again. Who really lets their tank get that low anyway or for that matter worries about their range in any kind performance oriented car...

Also 99% of the corrosion stories are either Hearsay or plain BS.

I have sprayed quite alot of meth on one of my cars, I had 4 175 ml jets 1 in each intake runner and a 375ml at the throttle body, I had to pull alot of fuel out of the map it did work and it worked well. I don't believe you can spray enough to hydro lock a motor with out the engine first misfiring because of an extremely rich condition and to much fuel to burn or possibly too high flash point to burn. I have done that and all that happens is a couple cylinder will cut out. It kinda feels like when your plugs are gaped to wide and you misfire.

These kits that are boost activated and stop spraying as soon as boost drops off, there is no chance of it spraying when the boost is to low. The only failure I could see happening is pump failure or clogged jet.

Some people do like race gas more but I prefer the meth.
Race gas here is alot more expensive than pump gas, if it were the same price I would run it cause is smells good when your car is burning it.

I have used water meth personally for 9 years, and I have never had an issue with it.
I did rebuild one guys engine that had it, and he was tuned for it and he ran out. He didn't notice his a/f gauge or egt gauge and melted a hole through the piston and rings. If this guy had a fail safe that never would have happened.

But that can also happen with out meth and bad tuning.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Just FYI "Race gas at the price of pumps gas" was my metaphor for E85...For me it's end cost is nearly the same as pump 92(and smells pretty good IMO) and is 105 octane at a minimum just simpler to deal with then Methanol... .

Over course if I was in your situation with it not available, I would be more then likely running methanol Injection...

 

[1991_talon]

This thread was not intended to be about E85 vs. Methonal injection...In order to run an E85 conversion I would have to drive 20 minutes every time I wanted to fill up! You guys are all entitled to your own opinions, but as stated I originally was asking about problems anyone has encountered with methonal injection. I have found the information I was looking for so thank you guys, but if I wanted E85 info. I would have asked. I have already looked into and have no desire to run E85, not arguing any benifits just not practical for my DD.

Also I am running 23 psi my plans are to run the injection kit, bump up my boost to about 28 on my 60 trim and 880cc injectors, and advance the timing. I want to begin spraying around 15psi. I will use straight winter washer fluid to fill the resevoir. Before I begin...any flaws in my plan?

 

[LiquidX]

This thread was not intended to be about E85 vs. Methonal injection...In order to run an E85 conversion I would have to drive 20 minutes every time I wanted to fill up! ...I have found the information I was looking for so thank you...

That's the reason why I went with meth/water injection as well.

Are you going to continue the route of MeHO injection or stay straight pump?
If you are, highly consider going with DevilsOwn, simple kit and works very well.

 

[1991_talon]

Also I am running 23 psi my plans are to run the injection kit, bump up my boost to about 28 on my 60 trim and 880cc injectors, and advance the timing. I want to begin spraying around 15psi. I will use straight winter washer fluid to fill the resevoir. I've seen your kit and it is very good, however I will most likely have Jay Racing advance my timing since he did my original tune he will most likely use the AEM kit since its one of their products.

 

[LiquidX]

Eh, I wouldn't use the AEM kit. It may be a decent product but the information that I gathered when deciding on a kit was based on this.

AEM makes hundreds of products and specializes in non, DevilsOwn makes few products and specializes in many.

If you are going with a progressive switch you would want it to start spraying a little sooner, possibly around 10psi and be fully on around 22psi if tuning for 28psi. I have *heard* that the progressive controller can make tuning a littler "harder" unlike a on/off Hobbs switch.

 

[1991_talon]

Ik I could spray much lower but I have a heavy foot at times and am very cautious with my car.

Dsm water alcohol Injection Devilsown
I'm assuming this is your kit. I will see if I can install it myself and have him advance the timing. What size resevoir are you using? How low does it have to be for the light to come on?

 

[LiquidX]

This is the kit I'm using.
Universal Stage 1 : Alcohol Injection Kits : Devils Own Alcohol Injection Devilsown

The DevilsOwn kits utilize the stock washer tank which is a 1 gallon resivoir. If you don't want to drill a hole in the tank for the pump fitting then the stock pumps (front and rear nozzles) are the same size needed for the fitting that is used.

Here is my install. This is before I can the wires and tubing

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Ran the tubing through the car and out the grommet under the battery

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

It's not all that hard to wire together, just make sure you solder your connections.
I have yet to run out of fluid and I have a heavy foot as well. I do top off the tank when I go to the gas station however full it may be. This is all using a single DO7 nozzle and I'll be putting on a DO10 nozzle on Wednesday.

If you haven't read this link yet then check it out. DevilsOwn is also a supporting Vendor BTW
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/nit...r-water-alcohol-injection-questions-here.html

 

[1991_talon]

Thx for the pics will def help installation. The DSM stage 2 kit is $70 more and has the progressive controller, I sent the URL in my previous post. Do you think is worth the extra $$?

 

[LiquidX]

I think it all comes down to preference. Some say the progressive is much better and others feel an on/off is all you need. I opted for the switch because I already have a MAP sensor and I didnt want more spewing to be occurring at boost levels that I didn't need it to spray at.

I think the progressive kit is a cleaner install with the controller however by it's not needed. You can also sign up on the DevilsOwn forum and get some information on there as well. I was posting some technical questions there when I was deciding what to do. I'm under the same user name on that forum.

 

[1991_talon]

I think it all comes down to preference. Some say the progressive is much better and others feel an on/off is all you need. I opted for the switch because I already have a MAP sensor and I didnt want more spewing to be occurring at boost levels that I didn't need it to spray at.

I think the progressive kit is a cleaner install with the controller however by it's not needed. You can also sign up on the DevilsOwn forum and get some information on there as well. I was posting some technical questions there when I was deciding what to do. I'm under the same user name on that forum.

Ok thanks for all your help ill friend you and keep you guys posted.

 

[LiquidX]

Any updates you have, keep them in the thread. Do not PM the updates or questions.

 

[stukyl28]

I have a feeling my motor started to go cause my pump would not go on under boost, when I put my motor back together I'm going to keep the meth kit but use it more as a misting effect into my intake to cool the temps down. Like many others have stated before me it's just another thing to go wrong. But when it's working correctly it's like having race gas when you need it most. It's up to you to weigh out the advantages and disadvantages!

 

[spadepro22]

Say if I'm running 25psi and that's at max of the efficient range of my turbo, what would I benefit from meth/water if I'm not seeing knock? I think I understand that if it is knocking the meth/water would aid help to run more boost, is that correct?

 

[kujo]

I believe that meth injection is not just for added boost but also adding timing which also helps make more power. people usually pull timing when knock is occuring so with the meth kit you can retune for a more aggresive tune.