methanol injection Do it or Not worth it

[MrBoxx]

The mist lowers air tems enough to qualify as a front mount intercooler, as I deducted.

I was going to mention something to this effect, but decided not to in the interest of waiting for someone else to chime in. The way I see it, water/alky injection increases the efficiency of the turbo, much like the intercooler. An increase in efficiency between two identical boost levels SHOULD result in more power.

However, yes, on a good tune with no knock, I would imagine the difference would be much less.

It would be interesting to see a dyno test of this, though, just for kicks.

 

[dsm-onster]

I was going to mention something to this effect, but decided not to in the interest of waiting for someone else to chime in. The way I see it, water/alky injection increases the efficiency of the turbo, much like the intercooler. An increase in efficiency between two identical boost levels SHOULD result in more power.

However, yes, on a good tune with no knock, I would imagine the difference would be much less.

It would be interesting to see a dyno test of this, though, just for kicks.

Yea, adding a big intercooler when you're getting no knock is marginally beneficial. The benefit comes into play when you raise the boost! But that margin is greater when a bigger intercooler is used. Water injection is like a HUGE front mount without the lag. Then, on top of that, it raises your pump gas octane (93) to about 108.

 

[jaredgsx]

Methanol injection is the best substitute for race gas. It definitely offers a lot of potential, but you better know what you're doing and have the right engine components to pull it off. I speak from experience as I just recently blew my car up after fitting a meth kit to it. Details here.

The kit I got from alkycontrol.com is quite good. It includes everything you need and is pretty comprehensive in its controls and failsafes. It was working flawlessly in my car; my motor gave out due mostly to mechanical shortcomings.

My heart dropped when i saw those pics..and alky injection has worked great on my car. For 200 bucks for a basic kit I have no complaints

 

[nukefission]

As for Nuke's car-I read the whole thread, and I retract my previous statement. It is feesable for a catastrophy like that if you were under heavy lead @30psi and ran low/out of alky, but with the good rod's and pistons, I would not expect that.

After further analysis it looks like the car may have been too rich when it blew up. It is possible to inject too much meth and have it backfire in the intake manifold, which is what we believe happened.

There was more than one problem with that motor. The meth explosion was one, but the other was improper wall clearance. Wiseco requires their wall clearance to be measured at a different point on the piston than most other manufacturers. These instructions were in the box that I provided to the machine shop, but they may not have paid any attention to them and did their own thing.

Water or water/alky blend is probably the safest way to go if you're just starting out and/or don't have a heavily modified car. Meth has a great deal more to offer, but misuse can have catastrophic results. Also it would be prudent to make sure no other fuels have been accidentally mixed with the meth if you're getting it from a race shop.

 

[XakEp]

I've always been tempted to get an alky kit, but since 104 is around the corner from my place I never saw a reason to get it.

 

[coltboostin]

I've always been tempted to get an alky kit, but since 104 is around the corner from my place I never saw a reason to get it.

Yuo can make big power on 104.

That being said, no injection for me, I have 110 up the street.

 

[wishihadatalon]

Yea, adding a big intercooler when you're getting no knock is marginally beneficial. The benefit comes into play when you raise the boost! But that margin is greater when a bigger intercooler is used. Water injection is like a HUGE front mount without the lag. Then, on top of that, it raises your pump gas octane (93) to about 108.

What about compression? I know you don't inject very much water but isn't there a little gain from that because water doesn't compress.

 

[dsm-onster]

What about compression? I know you don't inject very much water but isn't there a little gain from that because water doesn't compress.

This has been debated. But ,there is also less air entering the cylinder to be compressed. It has been displaced by the water injected instead.

Either of these possibilities would certainly have a negligible effect. If both are happening, then they cancel each other out.

 

[coltboostin]

What about compression? I know you don't inject very much water but isn't there a little gain from that because water doesn't compress.

Back to back pulls (on low boost) have shown there to be no gain, or even loss from just the water/alchy alone. Granted this was perfect case-no knock and "normal" timming.

 

[ericbev]

Back to back pulls (on low boost) have shown there to be no gain, or even loss from just the water/alchy alone. Granted this was perfect case-no knock and "normal" timming.

Water Injection, or water/alcohol injection, acts as a highly effective gaseous intercooler. The only reason for an intercooler is to cool down the hot, compressed air from the turbo. Water can do this job far better because it has a very high property of Latent Heat of Evaporation, 500+ BTUs compared to gasoline's 135 BTUs and alcohol's 470. Cylinder temperatures can be lowered as much as 300 degrees.

Cooler=More Dense=More power

Did adding that big frount mount gain you any HP? The anwser is yes. This is especially true with a pumpgas tune that is tuned right near the threshold of detonation where you turbo might be pushing a little bit of hot air that your intercooler cant quite suppress.

All this also primarily dependant on the mixture, where and what size nozzle, and other variables in your specific setup of course.

I have no personal dyno, side by side data to prove this either way. I am just looking at the facts. I would ASSume that you would see some sort of gain with the super cooled charge temps provided no other modifications were done. I did some web searching but couldnt get any dyno sheets. Ill keep trying.

What about compression? I know you don't inject very much water but isn't there a little gain from that because water doesn't compress.

Water actually acts as a buffer and slows the flame front thus slightly reducing cylinder pressure. The denser charge created by the cooling actually raises the peak pressure and offsets this small loss.

The knock supression of these methods is unquestionable.

DSM-onster covered your other questions quite well. If you have any more specific questions Ill see what I can do.

 

[Joesmoke]

Some more of my own observations....

No knock allows max timing allowable. When you run over 20 deg timing at 20 psi compared to 15 deg timing, you will feel a difference.

Pull fuel out, add meth in. As you do this, you will feel the car wake up.

I went from -10 in my high map, to -15, and added meth. You can feel that difference.

Btw: Above settings are on 14b, stock injectors, stock sidemount. You can really extract the most from stock components with meth injection!

Wideband is coming, and that will be very interesting to see what af I am at now, and where I can go.

 

[coltboostin]

Water Injection, or water/alcohol injection, acts as a highly effective gaseous intercooler. The only reason for an intercooler is to cool down the hot, compressed air from the turbo. Water can do this job far better because it has a very high property of Latent Heat of Evaporation, 500+ BTUs compared to gasoline's 135 BTUs and alcohol's 470. Cylinder temperatures can be lowered as much as 300 degrees.

Cooler=More Dense=More power

Did adding that big frount mount gain you any HP? The anwser is yes. This is especially true with a pumpgas tune that is tuned right near the threshold of detonation where you turbo might be pushing a little bit of hot air that your intercooler cant quite suppress.

All this also primarily dependant on the mixture, where and what size nozzle, and other variables in your specific setup of course.

I have no personal dyno, side by side data to prove this either way. I am just looking at the facts. I would ASSume that you would see some sort of gain with the super cooled charge temps provided no other modofications were done. I did some web searching but couldnt get any dyno sheets. Ill keep trying.



Water actually acts as a buffer and slows the flame front thus slightly reducing cylinder pressure. The denser charge created by the cooling actually raises the peak pressure and offsets this small loss.

The knock supression of these methods is unquestionable.

DSM-onster covered your other questions quite well. If you have any more specific questions Ill see what I can do.

Thanks for all that, and explaining the why when in a REAL WORD, all things being equal, car with a good tune and no knock, the car gained nothing from the addition of water/akly.

 

[ericbev]

I have no personal dyno, side by side data to prove this either way. I am just looking at the facts. I would ASSume that you would see some sort of gain with the super cooled charge temps provided no other modifications were done. I did some web searching bu couldnt get any dyno sheets with this comparision in mind. Ill keep trying.

I was simply stating the facts. Did you not read what I said? ^^ There is no flaming nescescary when I am just posting my findings. It was simply food for thought as I stated in my post. Some technical information can only help make the thread more useful. Sorry for trying to make some sense. People sure are touchy on here sometimes.

 

[coltboostin]

I was simply stating the facts. Did you not read what I said? ^^ There is no flaming nescescary when I am just posting my findings. It was simply food for thought as I stated in my post. Some technical information can only help make the thread more useful. Sorry for trying to make some sense. People sure are touchy on here sometimes.

Agreed. You did post useful factual info.

I just posted a real world result. Both are needed to further knowlege and help people make a desicion on a purchase.