Looking to lower my air temp using liquid to air

[topstreet]

i dont see how im been a dick

I was saying that I didnt want to seem like a dick, not you.

I didnt know this was your 3rd language. Sorry man!

Post edited and PM sent.

 

[tstkl]

Your mostly likley correct, I mean you really sound like you know what your talking about... but then I don't understand how a radiator fan works, I thought it basically used windchill to cool it. Or is it just getting it below ambient that is impossible but it still does cool it somewhat?

the more air you have passing over a radiator (or intercooler) the closer you will get to ambient air temps. Thats why he is seeing 100 degree intake temps, because his intercooler isn't 100% efficent. At higher speeds your intercooler will do more cooling, but you can never get below outside air temps.

also, think about when your radiator fans come on... when your sitting there not moving. The air inbetween the radiator is doing the samet thing. Just sitting there, getting hotter and hotter, and not cooling your radiator as a result. the fans move that hot air out of the way and pull some cold air through your radiator so your car doesn't overheat.

 

[thekellbeast]

The Idea of running a pressurized gas through a compressor (like an AC system) has crossed my mind before. I like your thought on that one. I am just thinking that by the time you got all said and done with it, it would cool the air(or cool the water that cools the air) really well. But rob HP and weight everwhere else.

You wouldn't run the A/C when you were making a pull. You could just use it to chill the water to really cold temps, and then shut it off when you wanted to make a run. If you have a large enough resevoir, you won't heat soak. Or if you wanted to eliminate the a/c system for weight reasons, you could always use the pressurized gas idea.

If you want to lower the freezing point of water, you could always run a 50/50 mix of water/antifreeze. Then you wouldn't have to worry about rusty pipes.

 

[screamineagle]

I don't think anyone mentioned this but there is a term called quality of heat. The greater the difference between the the intercooler and the passing air the better quality of heat disipation you have. Think of a cup of steaming coffee. The coffee drops temperature very quickly at the beginning but tapers off and stays warm for a longer time as it gets closer to ambient. So it easier to drop 5 degrees in the begining then when the coffee is 5 degrees away from anbient very. This why having 2 intercoolers is pointless because the temperature difference is so little after going through the first that the second has very little effect.

Just something to consider.

 

[Mikael]

Here ya go-

Run a turbo at like 70psi through the intercooler, then drop the pressure to 50 going into the intake.

It'll be close to ambient at 70 psi then drop below ambient entering the intake manifold.


Probably not realistic, but works on paper.


Another one would be to run maybe 200psi of fuel, through a heat exchanger, then drop the pressure back to normal. Same thing.

 

[omegis13]

As for trying to use a liquid to air intercooler to cool the air charge below ambient temps, it would only be possible if you had a cooling system like an air conditioner system to bring the temp below ambient. If you ran the liquid coolant through a small radiator, the coolest it would be able to come to IDEALLY would be ambient temp, but this is still unlikely. I know that in extreme computer cooling, we have electronic cooling units called peltier coolers, which can bring the temps of the CPU below freezing on one side, and the other side gets blazing hot. on top of the peltier, I still have to run a liquid cooling system to keep it from heating up the inside of my case's ambient temps. Theoretically, a similar setup could be applied to a car, but that would take a huge ass peltier unit (mine is about 2"^2 and cost me about $50 for the unit alone. I still had to build a cooling system for the hot side.

As for a reasonable way to bring a front mount's intake charge below ambient, try a Nitrous Xpress N-cooler kit; sprays either N2O or CO2 over the intercooler. It only works for as long as you spray, so it wouldn't be much more effective than alcohol injection. Just thought I would bring up this option, although I would be interested to see a sub ambient liquid cooling system work without ice.

Best of luck,

Greg Heineken

 

[topstreet]

Here ya go-

Run a turbo at like 70psi through the intercooler, then drop the pressure to 50 going into the intake.

It'll be close to ambient at 70 psi then drop below ambient entering the intake manifold.


Probably not realistic, but works on paper.


Another one would be to run maybe 200psi of fuel, through a heat exchanger, then drop the pressure back to normal. Same thing.

This is a valid question! Is this for real. If so how exactly do you propose that I put a turbo a 70psi of pipe pressure and then drop the pressure in the manifold to 50psi with out leaking it off. Because if you did leak it out of the system, the temp would stay the same. It may change temp once it leaves and goes to the atmosphere. But this doesn't help the manifold temps.

In addition, you find a turbo that will maintain efficiency at 70psi, works on a 2liter, and will spool and I will run at 70psi and use any thing out there to cool the air charge. Because the amount of temp created by producing 70psi is going to be alot, let alone drooping it then to 50. The variable that does not make this work on paper is that you are not able to REALISTICALLY drop pressure like that without leaking it. If you leak it your problem starts all over again. Now lets just say that the intake manifold was so huge that the pressure would literally drop 20psi from the IC pipe to the manifold (causing a temp drop) the thing would leave little room for an engine in the dsm engine bay. Then, after the pressure has dropped, the air charge would have to find its way down the intake runners and into the head. At this point, the velocity and pressure would again increase. You just started over in the air heating process.

I am not sure what the fuel being a 200psi is supposed to do, but I don't see this working either. Again, in the real world, the pump that made 200psi and held the flow, would be making so much heat that the fuel would become saturated with heat within a few minutes of running. Attempting to tune the 150ish base pressure would be so much fun that I would probably shoot myself in the head. I don't want to do that. I would rather figure out a way to go down the track back wards.

The idea of running a water to air, with a "ice box" that has a ac style heat exchanger built into it is interesting though. If instead of having cold being radiated to the air through the ducting of a car with a fan. Instead of this, you submerged the core in a air to water box, filled with water. This would be a way to use a pressurized gas, dispersing cold to the water, to keep it at lower then ambient temp. It would take a while to cool the system, but it would take a while to warm it as well.

Interesting thoughts here. I was hoping to get more of the "this works really well for me" comments, but this is pretty interesting as well.

 

[DSMunknown]

For anyone who is interested, I found the link that 99gst_racer posted up about in-depth info about salt:




http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar98/890115623.Ch.r.html



To contact Ms. Benison if you seek further information, use these three links:

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar98/890115623.Ch.r.html
http://www.cst.cmich.edu/users/benis1kc/
http://www.cst.cmich.edu/users/benis1kc/contact.htm

 

[1gnasty]

I was saying that I didnt want to seem like a dick, not you.

I didnt know this was your 3rd language. Sorry man!

Post edited and PM sent.

it cool men not a problem

 

[DSMunknown]

I thought I might bring this up before this thread gets too old and forgotten. As someone reads this, an eventual (and quite legitimate) question that will arise will be something like the following:



If I add [X] amount of salt to [X] amount of water, then what decrease in the normal freezing point can I expect?

Or perhaps...

If I want the water to be [X] number of degrees, then how much salt will I have to add to [X] amount of water?

Or perhaps...

How long will this freezing effect last if I add [X] amount of salt to [X] amount of water to [some part of my engine]?




So I asked around, and I was told to look up colligative properties, or colligative properties of solutions. Here are some links I came across:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/meltpt.html#c1
http://www.sparknotes.com/chemistry/solutions/colligative/section1.html
http://dl.clackamas.edu/ch105-03/colligat.htm
http://www.nyu.edu/classes/tuckerman/honors.chem/lectures/lecture_13/node5.html
http://www.chem.queensu.ca/people/faculty/Mombourquette/FirstYrChem/colligative/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colligative_properties
http://members.aol.com/profchm/fpdepres.html
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/chemistry/FreezingPointDepression.html
http://dbhs.wvusd.k12.ca.us/webdocs/Solutions/Intro-to-ColligativeProp.html
http://www.chem.uncc.edu/faculty/murphy/1252/Chapter13B/
http://www.udel.edu/pchem/C443/Lectures/Lecture34.pdf
http://science.widener.edu/svb/pset/colligative.html
http://www.cop.ufl.edu/safezone/prokai/pha5100/collgtv.htm
http://www.chem.arizona.edu/~salzmanr/480a/480ants/colprop/colprop.html
http://www.chemistry.nmsu.edu/studntres/exercises/hwfreezing.html
http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~chem312/Handouts Folder/ColligativeProps.pdf
http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Che...C12-47FD-820E-9AB39DA1CBCD/0/5_60_l22_s05.pdf



According to the link below, colligative properties are "properties that depend upon the numbers of molecules present in [the] solution rather than their chemical characteristics."
http://www.mblab.gla.ac.uk/~julian/dict2.cgi?1446


The below quote is from the second link in the long list:

Freezing Point Depression

As you may have noticed when we looked at the phase diagram above1.3, the freezing point is depressed due to the vapor pressure lowering phenomenon. The below phase diagram1.5 points out that fact:

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Figure 1.5: Phase Diagram for a Solution and the Pure Solvent Indicating the Freezing Point Depression

In analogy to the boiling point elevation, we can calculate the amount of the freezing point depression with the following formula1.6:

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Note that the sign of the change in freezing point is negative because the freezing point of the solution is less than that of the pure solvent. Just as we did for boiling point elevation, we use molality to measure the concentration of the solute because it is temperature independent. Do not forget about the van't Hoff factor, i, in your freezing point calculations.

One way to rationalize the freezing point depression phenomenon without talking about Raoult's law is to consider the freezing process. In order for a liquid to freeze it must achieve a very ordered state that results in the formation of a crystal. If there are impurities in the liquid, i.e. solutes, the liquid is inherently less ordered. Therefore, a solution is more difficult to freeze than the pure solvent so a lower temperature is required to freeze the liquid.

To all the science/chem majors (or for anyone who knows about this process), please feel free to chime in and provide accurate information, and try to keep the dialogue in layman's terms.

 

[topstreet]

Anthony... I have got to honestly say..... None of that makes sense to me.

Not that it wasnt explained well or anything like that, just that I am by no means a chemistry person.

Great post though, Awesome links and info!

Jake

 

[thekellbeast]

Great stuff, but I honestly don't see why your're going down this tangent with salt. If you're trying to lower the freezing point of water, just use antifreeze. It's based on the same science as all of the stuff you just talked about, but you don't run the risk of rusting your engine. The 50/50 mix of water/antifreeze has a lower freezing point and higher boiling point than straight water.

 

[DSMunknown]

Anthony... I have got to honestly say..... None of that makes sense to me.

Not that it wasnt explained well or anything like that, just that I am by no means a chemistry person.

Great post though, Awesome links and info!

Jake

Which is exactly why I made the post, and why I'm looking for some guidance from knowledgable individuals. A lot of that sounds like gibberish to me as well, but hopefully someone can put it into concrete terms so that even the newbie can follow the thought-process.

Great stuff, but I honestly don't see why your're going down this tangent with salt. If you're trying to lower the freezing point of water, just use antifreeze. It's based on the same science as all of the stuff you just talked about, but you don't run the risk of rusting your engine. The 50/50 mix of water/antifreeze has a lower freezing point and higher boiling point than straight water.

Good point. I was watching SpikeTV the other weekend, and they mentioned a product that made me think of this discussion:


http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/royalpurple/purple-ice.html
http://www.royalpurple.com/prodsa/prpice.html


As the hosts mentioned, Royal Purple's Purple Ice product is able to lower coolant temperatures by 20*F better than normal antifreeze.

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This quote is from the first link given above:

Royal Purple Purple Ice Radiator Super Coolant Additive


Purple Ice™ is a high performance, synthetic, radiator coolant additive for both gasoline and diesel engines. It is formulated to reduce the surface tension of the coolant, which improves heat transfer through the cooling system while providing additional protection against rust, corrosion and erosion. Purple Ice™ prevents the formation of scale deposits in the radiator for optimum coolant flow and lubricates the seals of the water pump. It is ideal for use in straight water racing applications or in antifreeze / water mixtures. Purple Ice™ is compatible with traditional ethylene glycol antifreeze (green) and GM Dex-Cool® antifreeze coolants.

Purple Ice™ Reduces Coolant Temperatures
Extensive testing confirms Purple Ice™ reduces coolant temperatures better than comparable products while providing extra corrosion protection. For example, the average operating temperature of a 350 c.i.d. V8 engine (equipped with 160° thermostat) when dyno-tested with different coolants are:

Standard mix of water and glycol (antifreeze) — 228°F
50/50 water / glycol mix with Purple Ice™ added — 222°F
Straight water (no corrosion protection) — 220°F
Water with Purple Ice™ added — 200°F

 

[nanokpsi]

You arn't going to be able to reach your goal w/o the use of ice. Actually, air to air units are more efficient over time. Your best bet is to switch to the 4202 compressor and you should be set

 

[spyderturbo007]

Anthony asked me to stop by so here I am.

What aspect would you like help with?

The process of Freezing Point Depression can be as easy or as hard as you want to make it. Basically, it's the process of manipulating the freezing point of a liquid through the addition of another substance.

I'm assuming that you don't want the graduate level chemistry explaination so that should be good.

One thing I didn't see meantioned in this thread was the eutectic point. The eutectic point is the lowest temperature at which, in this case, saltwater can be a liquid. This happens to occur at a 23.3% salt solution and has a freezing point of -21.1 degrees Centigrade.

You can find this information in the form of a phase diagram.

Antifreeze and water have a eutectic point of -60 degrees at a concentration of just about 40% antifreeze. Here is the phase diagram for antifreeze:

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Here is the phase diagram for a saltwater solution:

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If you look at the phase diagram for saltwater I'll show you how to read it. Along the bottom (X-Axis) you will see concentration. This is in the form of percent. As you move from left to right on the graph you increase the concentration of salt in the solution. The Y-Axis (up and down) shows the temperature of the solution. If you look at the very bottom where the darkest blue is you will see that area is listed as mixed ice and salt crystals. This means that in that "area" that will be the phase of your mixture. You will also see that area is independant of salt concentration.......it doesn't matter how much salt you add, it will never be a liquid. You also need to look at the temperature on the left side. You will see that -21.1 Degrees is marked. That corresponds to the top of the dark blue section we were just dealing with. That is showing you that below that temperature is where the mixed ice and salt crystal phase will exist.

Now let's look at the lightest blue section. You will see that section labeled as "saltwater". See where the line is between that section and the others??? Those lines correspond to phase changes. So, at 0 degrees, the "saltwater" phase will change to the "saltwater and ice phase". Basically it's telling you that below o degrees, with a 0% NaCl solution, water turns to ice

Following that line to the right, you can see that as you add more salt, the temperature will start to drop, until we hit the magic number of -21.1 degrees centigrade. That is the eutectic point of the solution as I described above.

I didn't go through all the links you posted Anthony, so if you need help with any one in particual, let me know.

 

[gixrman]

don't know if you ever heard of it but one of the SVT engineers at Ford was working on a intercooler for the lighting that used the A/C to cool the water in the heat exchanger.
http://www.coolflow.com/intracooler/intercooler.htm
http://www.f150online.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-102691.html

Just some ideas.

 

[topstreet]

Again Thanks alot for the Physics lesson! I guess the simple answer concluded my thinking. Thanks again though!

Your best bet is to switch to the 4202 compressor and you should be set

I have a few tricks up my sleave and the 4202 is not it.

Thanks

Jake