Looking to lower my air temp using liquid to air

[topstreet]

Hey Guys!

I am looking to lower my air temps and achieve more power in the process. I have considered the idea of using a alcohol injection setup, but this is just not my style. I would like to keep the power and consistency there without having to refill another tank and worry about the added track regulations, do to fuel being in the piping before the throttle plates.

The main goal is to lower the temps AND keep it that way on the street. This means the idea of using dry ice or just ice is out of the question. I would consider it for the track MAYBE! I have always built the car to do what ever it does at the track on the street. That kind of stuff would really impede my ability to do so.

So back to the original topic... I have more than enough room for a nice sized intercooler radiator in the front where the 30x12x4 intercooler is currently. I have no problem running the custom lines and pump setup. I am currently running around 105-110 deg air temps at the top of 4th gear with 45 psi. The new setup will be pushing 50-55psi and flowing much more air. The idea of maxing out my current setup is not what is concerning me. The core is rated to 1300+hp and will flow what I need it to. I would like to bring my temps down well below 80 degrees though. I have personally witnessed people with doubled up Spearco 4.5x4.5x9 air to water setups hit negative air temps on the dyno using ice. This would be nice but it is not necessary. If I could consistently keep 60deg or less during daily driving, this would meet my goals.

I would like it if people with first hand experience responded. Please no hear say, or my buddy info. I am looking for solid info that is going to work or ideas that are along the same line. People that have pushed their own setups and think something similar may work for me... Please Jump in! What are you using? Things to consider. Your own experiences and successes with your setups.

Thanks In Advance for the Assistance!

Jake Hanhardt

 

[MMM]

Just thinking out loud, in order to get air intakes to 60 deg. the ambient air must be at least less than 60 deg. In a perfect world the heat from the air charge will pass onto the water via conduction and then onto the incoming air via convection. In the real world, there is no way that process could be that efficient. The air is simply not in the intercooler long enough to reach equalibrium with the water tank, and then the ambient air.

The only part of my statement that I am not 100% sure is, is air being forced into the I/C just as cool (or hot) as ambient air?? I know moving air SEEMS colder, but I think the temp is the same. Unless you are living in the arctic, I don't think you can get your intake temps down that much, but I am no engineer- I might be wrong. Hope this helps or at least starts a intellectual argument!!

 

[topstreet]

I understand what you are saying about the ambient temps and not being able to go lower, but the variable of air flow changes this... I Believe. I am not 100% either which is part of the reason I wanted to see what results others have had, and get less rapped up in theory. But your point is a good one.

Wind speed would affect the temp of the cooler though, correct? If wind chill for example can make a 30deg day and make it feel like a 0 deg day, then why wouldn't 40-150ish mph do the same to a cooler?

I do know though, that if you turn your fuel pump on and just let it run through the rail and back to the tank, with the engine off. This will warm the fuel by the dissipation of heat through the pump. I could see it being similar with the intercooler liquid pump. Maybe not as sever because of the lowered pressure and high volume. In addition the air charge will also disperse heat into the system. This means it is necessary to have a good cooler. But much like an air-air intercooler, you still can bring temps down nice and low.

That is a good question as to if you can bring them below ambient.

Maybe others are able to shed light and first hand experience to the topic.

 

[MMM]

Sorry can't help you with first hand. That might be your problem with this site, not many people here run that type of setup. I would look at other resources (possibly forums) that are geared toward faster turbo cars. Guys at the track with 80's firebirds that have no air intake holes in their front bumpers and probably use water-to-air I/Cs. Find where those guys hang out online and ask around there. I know 1 guy that I race with that runs Street Performance, a fairly big Grand National shop in north/west suburb of Chicago (hey your from WI maybe you know him??- Oswald Sr and Jr). I will run it by him if they take their car to RSD on saturday.

One last comment, as far as wind chill. I *think* that the whole theroy of that is it *feels* colder, but its actually not. Good luck!!

 

[topstreet]

That might be your problem with this site,

One last comment, as far as wind chill. I *think* that the whole theroy of that is it *feels* colder, but its actually not. Good luck!!

I am hoping and somewhat doubting that is true. I may be wrong, but there have got to be others on the board who are able to help... Even if its not the same level of the game, the use and setup is what I am hoping to hear a little about.

I very much appreciate your input. I dont want you to think I was telling you I wouldnt listen unless you have first hand... I was just trying to get a few first handers to add in.

I will take a look into what kind of thermal reaction the wind would have. Whether it just "feels" colder, or if it could reduce temp below ambient.

Thanks!

 

[MMM]

talked to my buddy, he said no way without ice. Sorry, but good luck!

 

[tstkl]

it feels colder at higher wind speeds because the air is more rappidly passing over your skin, and the exchange of heat between your skin and the air is happening much more often due to the fact that more air molecules are passing over your skin. Your body produces heat, and in high winds, it cannot keep up with the wind. Have you ever touched someone on a cold day who has really warm skin? this does not reflect the outside temperature whatsoever, and high winds would only bring said hot person closer and closer to the outside temperature. It is Impossible for the heat exchange to ever go below ambient air temperatures in an air to air intercooler because heat is ALWAYS passed from the hotter object to the colder object. If your intake charge is 30 degrees coming out of the turbocharger (yeah, I know, impossible, but just for science's sake) on an 80 degree day, the outside air will actually heat up your intake charge. sorry bud, in this case, speed is irrelivent.

For this same reason, a water to air intercooler (or at least one supplied by the factory cooling system) could not net you lower temps as well, since the car opperates at 195 degrees, the water is raised to that temperature, and the radiator makes a sad attempt at cooling it to below that while the engine produces more and more heat. A water to air intercooler wouldn't be any better on the street (and probably would just end up making things even hotter), than your current intercooler set up. If your planning on using your own water supply with ice, you must remember, the supply of air for your turbo is almost infinate, while the supply of ice for your water to air intercooler is not. After a couple minutes of heat exchange, the ice will melt and the water will become warm. It works on a dyno because dyno passes are short. If your driving on the street, expect to add an ice cube PER street block you drive,

your best bet is some type of injection, as much as you don't want to. I personally would suggest propane, as the compressed gas once released drops in temperature drastically. Also, propane is combustable, so it will throw off your tune, but won't have ill effects like too much water will.

 

[thekellbeast]

An air to water setup with a large resevoir would work well on the street, and would keep air temps down around ambient. In Maximum Boost (I think that's where I read it) they suggest figuring out how long of a pull you would make on the street (10-15 seconds or whatever) and then figuring out how much water you would need. Get a pump that would flow that much water, then get a resevoir that would hold something like 5 times that much water. So if you need to flow (just an example) 3 gallons of water through your cooler in a 12 second pull, you should use a 15 gallon (5 times 3) resevoir to prevent heat soak. Make sense?

During regular slow driving and cruising, you resevoir would just be circulating through the cooler/resevoir, and the entire water system would be at ambient air temps. Because you have such a large resevoir, you wouldn't heatsoak it during a pull on the onramp. Then when you're cruising down the highway, the system would return down to ambient temp.

An air to water setup with a smaller resevoir full of ice would work well on the drag strip, and you could get much lower air temps than ambient. Once the ice melts, you're back to regular water temps until you heatsoak it.

If you ever look at the really fast domestic guys running an air/water setup, they'll have the air side piping going though the firewall into the cabin, then have large heat exchanger where the passenger seat would be. They can add ice to it, and it's just enough to run down the drag strip. This is a totally different system than you would use on a daily driver.

I hope that helped out instead of confusing anybody. I always feel like I'm talking myself in circles when I type something.

 

[topstreet]

Both really great explanations guys!

I have one other question about this though. If there is no possibility to lower temps (past ambient) in a heat exchanger setup... Then why can you add ice to a air to water holding tank and see negative air temps in the intercooler pipe?

I believe what both of you are saying to be true. I just am unsure why this would happen. Is it that when the ice begins to melt it causes much lower temps then 32*? It is this thought that lead me to believe that it is possible to have lower temps than the ambient air temp.

. I personally would suggest propane, as the compressed gas once released drops in temperature drastically. Also, propane is combustable, so it will throw off your tune, but won't have ill effects like too much water will.

This is a very interesting idea. The only people I have ever heard using propane was the diesels. I am going to have to look into this. The weight and placement of the propane tank then becomes an issue. But nothing is without a well thought out plan and some sacrifice.

Thanks guys. Please feel free to give any new suggestions and to elaborate on the current suggestions. The ultimate goal is to obtain the power with out causing more trouble than it would be worth.

Jake

 

[Mikael]

Both really great explanations guys!

I have one other question about this though. If there is no possibility to lower temps (past ambient) in a heat exchanger setup... Then why can you add ice to a air to water holding tank and see negative air temps in the intercooler pipe?

I believe what both of you are saying to be true. I just am unsure why this would happen. Is it that when the ice begins to melt it causes much lower temps then 32*? It is this thought that lead me to believe that it is possible to have lower temps than the ambient air temp.



This is a very interesting idea. The only people I have ever heard using propane was the diesels. I am going to have to look into this. The weight and placement of the propane tank then becomes an issue. But nothing is without a well thought out plan and some sacrifice.

Thanks guys. Please feel free to give any new suggestions and to elaborate on the current suggestions. The ultimate goal is to obtain the power with out causing more trouble than it would be worth.

Jake

Fairly popular with the viper crew. Propane is 110 octane, that's the main reason for use. If you're willing to do propane injection why not just a meth inj kit? A 3 gal tank will probably last as long as your gas tank.

 

[topstreet]

I mentioned in the top why I would prefer not to do the meth injection. Thinking that propane injection on a gas motor, for performance sake, sounds interesting... Is not me stating that I am willing to do it. I would listen to the idea of it though. If it is true, that we would only be looking at 110 octane. Then Outside of the cooling affect to the air charge, this would possibly limit what I am trying to do.

 

[thekellbeast]

I believe what both of you are saying to be true. I just am unsure why this would happen. Is it that when the ice begins to melt it causes much lower temps then 32*? It is this thought that lead me to believe that it is possible to have lower temps than the ambient air temp.

When you pack your resevoir full of ice, the ice absorbs heat from the water and the water temp will drop below ambient. Once the ice absorbs all of the heat it can, and melts, then the water temp will slowy rise back up to ambient. So you can achieve below ambient temps with ice. But once the ice is melted, the lowest temp you can achieve is ambient. This wouldn't matter if you were packing the resevoir full of ice after every run at the drag strip though.

To get temps lower than 32* you would have to use something other than ice. Maybe run a Co2 sprayer, with expansion lines inside the water resevoir. The co2 would cool the water immensely and then vent outside the car. Jut a crackhead idea that came to me today. That and my idea of usind the car's A/C to chill the resevoir between runs. I'm out of my own skull.

 

[tstkl]

if you add salt to ice, it brings it below 32 degrees. If your using Celsius over Fahrenheit, thats negative. I dunno how you saw negative number if this was not the case.

as for the large water resivour:
At 4°C pure water has a density (weight or mass) of about 1 g/cu.cm, 1 g/ml,
1 kg/litre, 1000 kg/cu.m, 1 tonne/cu.m or 62.4 lb/cu.ft

15 US gallons = 56 781.177 ml

so thats 56,781.77 grams, or 125.181067 pounds

good luck with that.

also, the resivour won't lower to ambient air temps unless you have some type of radiator, or the air is passing over the 15gallon bottle you have. In that case, only the water close to the outside of the bottle will be getting cooled.

 

[topstreet]

When you pack your resevoir full of ice, the ice absorbs heat from the water and the water temp will drop below ambient. Once the ice absorbs all of the heat it can, and melts, then the water temp will slowy rise back up to ambient. So you can achieve below ambient temps with ice. But once the ice is melted, the lowest temp you can achieve is ambient. This wouldn't matter if you were packing the resevoir full of ice after every run at the drag strip though.

I understand this. I am saying that I have personally witnessed an aem log negitive numbers in the intercooler pipe, using a GM style temp sensor in farenheit. I am wondering how this is possible without the abilitly to go below the temp of the ice?

Either way, I guess that the idea behind getting 60ish degrees rolling around town, on a nice hot summer day, is out of the question.

Back to the drawing boards!

 

[thekellbeast]

15 US gallons = 56 781.177 ml

so thats 56,781.77 grams, or 125.181067 pounds

good luck with that.

also, the resivour won't lower to ambient air temps unless you have some type of radiator, or the air is passing over the 15gallon bottle you have. In that case, only the water close to the outside of the bottle will be getting cooled.

15 gallons was an estimation. Obviously you would have to calculate the size of the resevoir you would run, based on your water needs. I can't tell you what size you would need. Also, 125 pounds is like having a passenger.

In order to run a air-water setup on the street, you would need a radiator. The water would basically go like this: Resevoir -> pump -> IC core -> radiator -> back to resevoir. So it absorbs the heat from the air, then is cooled back off before returning to the tank. I've heard of people using small civic radiators for this.

This page has some good tech.
http://www.key-ideas.com/AirWaterIC.htm
In the end he uses a 10 gallon resevoir, which he says lasts for an hour or back to back runs. You could get away with a lot less water weight. if you're filling up the ice every run.

For drag runs, you could get away with having a large water/ice resevoir that the air simply flows though. You wouldn't need a pump or radiator of any kind.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I understand this. I am saying that I have personally witnessed an aem log negitive numbers in the intercooler pipe, using a GM style temp sensor in farenheit. I am wondering how this is possible without the abilitly to go below the temp of the ice?

Water freezes at 32*. Once its frozen, it can get much colder. 32* just happens to be the point at which it changes form, it isn't stuck there. Just like water can be 33*-211* (or boiling point, I forget it), any temp within its range. Ice's range = anything <32*.

Get an IR thermometer and measure a solid block of ice that's been in the freezer for a long time, you'll most likely see whatever temperature the freezer is set at (I've seen as low as 20*).

Are you sure they weren't using dry ice?

 

[99gst_racer]

I understand this. I am saying that I have personally witnessed an aem log negitive numbers in the intercooler pipe, using a GM style temp sensor in farenheit. I am wondering how this is possible without the abilitly to go below the temp of the ice?

Lots of salt. Salt lowers the freezing point of water, so extremely salty water can actually have freezing points as low as -20*F.

(Kind of a neat experiment I did a while back; fill your kitchen sink with cold water, a bag of ice, and a ton of salt. Then put a warm sixer in there and wait a few minutes. You'd be surprised how much quicker and colder your beer will be as apposed to regular iced water.)

Jake, how much over ambient are your current intake temps?

 

[DSMunknown]

Lots of salt. Salt lowers the freezing point of water, so extremely salty water can actually have freezing points as low as -20*F.

Are you familiar with how this actually occurs (without getting too technical)?

 

[MMM]

There is no way that you saw less than 0 deg F unless the sensor was not acurate. Also, as far as large resevoirs, a 15 gal resevoir + the core + piping will be over 160 pounds. Thats a lot of weight to add. Than you need a big ass pump which will draw a ton of amps from your alternator, load that up and rob HP, not to mention the loudness of the pump for a street car. Just some more thoughts...

 

[99gst_racer]

Are you familiar with how this actually occurs (without getting too technical)?

Sure:

Salt lowers the temperature at which water freezes and melts. Pure water,
H2O, freezes (and melts) at 0°C (32°F). But the more "salt" (any elements
or compounds carried by the water in solution, such as Na (sodium), Ca
(calcium), Cl (chloride), and SO4 (sulfate)) in water, the lower its
freezing point. For example, seawater, which has approximately 3500 parts
per million "salt" (including Na, Ca, Cl, SO4, Mg, K, and CO3), will freeze
(and melt) at -2.2°C. A water with extreme salinity such as very salty
lake waters at Death Valley, California (approximately 300,000 parts per
million "salt") may freeze and melt at temperatures as low as -20 - -30°C!
Because salt lowers the freezing point depression, it is added to icy roads
in order to melt the ice.

The reason why salt lowers the freezing temperature of water is a bit more
difficult to explain without discussing more complex chemistry. Basically,
pure water, H2O, is a different substance than salt water, such as NaCl-
H2O. As different substances, they have different chemical properties.
Salt "gets in the way" of the interactions between H and O, making it
harder for the H and O to bond as ice.


Kathy Benison
Asst. Professor of Geology
Central Michigan University
Mt. Pleasant, MI

 

[cb3016]

it feels colder at higher wind speeds because the air is more rappidly passing over your skin, and the exchange of heat between your skin and the air is happening much more often due to the fact that more air molecules are passing over your skin. Your body produces heat, and in high winds, it cannot keep up with the wind. Have you ever touched someone on a cold day who has really warm skin? this does not reflect the outside temperature whatsoever, and high winds would only bring said hot person closer and closer to the outside temperature. It is Impossible for the heat exchange to ever go below ambient air temperatures in an air to air intercooler because heat is ALWAYS passed from the hotter object to the colder object. If your intake charge is 30 degrees coming out of the turbocharger (yeah, I know, impossible, but just for science's sake) on an 80 degree day, the outside air will actually heat up your intake charge. sorry bud, in this case, speed is irrelivent.

For this same reason, a water to air intercooler (or at least one supplied by the factory cooling system) could not net you lower temps as well, since the car opperates at 195 degrees, the water is raised to that temperature, and the radiator makes a sad attempt at cooling it to below that while the engine produces more and more heat. A water to air intercooler wouldn't be any better on the street (and probably would just end up making things even hotter), than your current intercooler set up. If your planning on using your own water supply with ice, you must remember, the supply of air for your turbo is almost infinate, while the supply of ice for your water to air intercooler is not. After a couple minutes of heat exchange, the ice will melt and the water will become warm. It works on a dyno because dyno passes are short. If your driving on the street, expect to add an ice cube PER street block you drive,

your best bet is some type of injection, as much as you don't want to. I personally would suggest propane, as the compressed gas once released drops in temperature drastically. Also, propane is combustable, so it will throw off your tune, but won't have ill effects like too much water will.

Your mostly likley correct, I mean you really sound like you know what your talking about... but then I don't understand how a radiator fan works, I thought it basically used windchill to cool it. Or is it just getting it below ambient that is impossible but it still does cool it somewhat?

 

[cb3016]

Also wanted to point out that salt is the fastest way to bring a liquid to a boil. Didn't want people to think that adding salt to their cars would lowers temps if not used in a application that was lowering the temps at the same time. If you just add salt all you will get is higher temps and rusty parts.

 

[1gnasty]

liquid to air ic have pruve to be more eficient than air to air, dont see why will notl help u achive your goal, and other thing is the ic pipe run right next to the exahust manny, use heat wrap in all the ic pipes and the exahust manny, it will lover temps all around,it realy work good on my car just try them out, ohh and other thing are u guys ever going to put that intake manny in the market?

 

[topstreet]

Lots of salt. Salt lowers the freezing point of water, so extremely salty water can actually have freezing points as low as -20*F.

(Kind of a neat experiment I did a while back; fill your kitchen sink with cold water, a bag of ice, and a ton of salt. Then put a warm sixer in there and wait a few minutes. You'd be surprised how much quicker and colder your beer will be as apposed to regular iced water.)

Jake, how much over ambient are your current intake temps?

This makes a lot of sence. Thanks for the info.

Anyways, The whole reason I was so interested in the idea of a cooler being able to bring temps below ambient was because I did NOT want to use ice. Also because if this were the case, I would be able to run a nice cooler and get the affect of the cooler air and lesser pressure drop. If this is not going to work the way I wanted to, then I will stay with what I have.

The Idea of running a pressurized gas through a compressor (like an AC system) has crossed my mind before. I like your thought on that one. I am just thinking that by the time you got all said and done with it, it would cool the air(or cool the water that cools the air) really well. But rob HP and weight everwhere else.

We will see. I have never seen higher then 109* air temps I think, and that was pretty far from the edge of the compressor map. If I can get a compressor that is a better match for the power I am interested in, this would be the best option. If I could even be in the 65%ish range that would help.

 

[1gnasty]

This makes a lot of sence. Thanks for the info.



I don't mean to be a dick, but please proof read your posts. I show you enough respect to respond with an educated answer, please do the same for me.

Anyways, The whole reason I was so interested in the idea of a cooler being able to bring temps below ambient was because I did NOT want to use ice. Also because if this were the case, I would be able to run a nice cooler and get the affect of the cooler air and lesser pressure drop. If this is not going to work the way I wanted to, then I will stay with what I have.

The Idea of running a pressurized gas through a compressor (like an AC system) has crossed my mind before. I like your thought on that one. I am just thinking that by the time you got all said and done with it, it would cool the air(or cool the water that cools the air) really well. But rob HP and weight everwhere else.

We will see. I have never seen higher then 109* air temps I think, and that was pretty far from the edge of the compressor map. If I can get a compressor that is a better match for the power I am interested in, this would be the best option. If I could even be in the 65%ish range that would help.

i dont see how im been a dick