List your tuning tricks here !!

[sweet97]

In many replies I read "tune,tune,tune". Well I just got the bugs worked out of my car and need tips to tune for another 25HP if notmore, possible? Well here's what I have: 1993AWD Talon
1. AGP RS60T 60-1 turbo
2. 650cc inj's
3. 3"turboback with resonator and a large magnaflow-5"x8"x18" body.
4. 3" ColdAirIntake-K&N where the stock side mount was
5. Spearco 2-221/short route IC to TB with a GM MAF in a blowthru position
6. Walbro 255/AFPR
6a. keydiver stage 3 chip
7. Wideband a/f meter
8. Scanmaster by fullthrottlespeed
9. EGT gauge

My motor likes a 10.5 to 10.9:1 a/f to run without knock. The 650cc inj's are fine with the 60-1 at the 20-22 psi level I run on pump. I run a base fuel pressure of 45 psi/burned into the chip.
OK, what do you tuning guru's suggest I do? Should I try an 11:1 a/f?. What should I set my base timing at? I believe I am at the 5* mark with the wire grounded. How about I raise the base pressure and try to tune the MAFT to a leaner position/more timing?
Should I tune for zero knock sum or is a little OK, like under 10 counts?
Well now it's up to you to share your secrets for tuning for power, if you don't mind!! Thanks, Mark

 

[TTA89]

I take my tuning approach on a DSM similar towards tuning my GN. Get the timing curve I want for my octane, but have the boost at a respectable low for now. Then watch for knock, if none in seen then turn the boost up until I see knock. Depending on how much i see if it is low I will turn the fuel pressure up a lb or two & add maybe another pound or two of boost until I again see knock. Then back the boost down until knock is gone. But each tuning session should be given the same amount of cool down time. As a hot intake temp from constant testing will cause detonation to occur.

 

[sweet97]

Rob then you tune for ZERO knock. How about your a/f? can you log that? I don't understand how that can be changed to run leaner. If I try for a low 11.xx:1 I get knock. Would I make more power with a leaner mix and less boost? I am able to run 20 psi and no knock. With the Scanmaster I am able to see the data in real time. Palms and I Do NOT get along. Can you say HAMMER?
With the MAFT would I be better to run a click leaner with the extra timing but remove the knock with more base fuel pressure? When is the timing too high? Guys, sorry for all of the questions but I must have HP that I am not getting due to tuning!! Anymore? Tuning is emphasized so much tha surely there must be more guys that can contibute to this. Mark

 

[TTA89]

I like to see 10.9-11.1 on pump gas. If you are seeing those numbers & still see knock either your running to much timing or to much boost & your intake temps are to hot. I see that you have a 2g so you cant adjust your CAS like us 6 bolters. In your key diver chip do you have a modified WOT timing curve for pump gas? If you run on mainly pump gas I suggest that.

What do your EGTs read after a 3rd gear pull. I like mine to stay around 1550-1600 with my sensor being around 4" away from the head in the #1 runner.

 

[sweet97]

I have a '93 AWD Talon. I was looking at a '97 spyderthat I did not buy so sweet97 stayed. Ican run 20PSI, no knock. The chip has extended maps. I guess I was thinking there must be some secret to tuning that I do not know about. Then there is the question is it better to run less boost and a leaner mix(If I could run leaner) than torun higher boost and a 10.9:1 a/f ratio?
Maybe I have it tuned as far as it can go? I haveWOT leaned 15% at 20PSI. I don't want to run mre boost on a 109k mile motor/head. Mark

 

[TTA89]

Whats your timing curve look like? If its not knocking on 20lbs & you are leaned out some I would turn the fuel up & boost up slightly. Whats your EGTs read?

 

[sweet97]

My EGT stillneeds to be powered. I now believe I am OK.
I hadsome guy saying I should run much leaner like an high 11.xx:1 and there is no way my motor will run like that without knocking bdly. I will just be happy with the 0 psi and no knock at a high 10 a/f. Mark
PS:When I get the EGT wired fr power i will PM you as you are the only one to espnd. Must be a secret like Ithought!! Mark

 

[Burnett03]

My EGT stillneeds to be powered. I now believe I am OK.
I hadsome guy saying I should run much leaner like an high 11.xx:1 and there is no way my motor will run like that without knocking bdly. I will just be happy with the 0 psi and no knock at a high 10 a/f. Mark
PS:When I get the EGT wired fr power i will PM you as you are the only one to espnd. Must be a secret like Ithought!! Mark

what features do you have on your keydiver chip? How much timing advance do you get at WOT? Did you have to fine tune it any?

 

[sweet97]

Stage 3 chip: rev limit @8000RPM's. Stutterbox for launch
No fuelcut/octane reset. shift CE light at 7000RPM's Enhanced closed loopmaps. 650cc injector/264us deadtime compensation. 45 psi FPR base pressure/900RPM idle. no airflow cap. 2X hertz to log double Karman, a few more.
Upper teens for timing advance though it can go lower with the extended maps if I really push it with pump gas.
Have not done maft fine tuning yet. Did add comp cams 200's last weekend.running 22 psi on pump, amazing spool.Mark

 

[CYCLONE]

You said that your motor has 109k miles on it. Chances are your knock sensor
might need replacement. With that milage chances are its toast. They don't like
heat. Reach around the sensor make sure that it didn't start to melt. If the back
of it is sticky, replace it. With 20psi on pump you should be able to run around
11.7-11.8a/f. Also what is your timing at WOT under full boost?

 

[sweet97]

Timing is mid toupper teens at WOT. I think my Spearco 2-221 is part of the problem. It is 18"wx6"talland 3.5" thick. Flows 1080CFM @ 1.5PSI drop but is not the most eficient. I did not want to cut my bumper. Now I may have to and have my eye on a larger spearco that flows 1500CFM at 1.5 psi drop. Who has the best prices on a new kock sensor? mark

 

[Burnett03]

have you tried the studder box? how much boost can you build with your 60-1? Hows the launch feel?

 

[sweet97]

Just launched twice, both at 4500. It has 5 launch rpm's up to 5500rpm's. Did not watch forboost. Was able to launch more consistantly as without it I would usually bog. Please remember the high miles and a 3 bolt rear have kept me conservative with it. I have no intention of going to a track and not many street races are from dead stop. The stutter box feature makes launching so much easier. I asked amember who runs low 12's abou his launching technique and he said STUTTER BOX! said without it he could not launch the car like he does! Mark

 

[Deez]

Timing is mid toupper teens at WOT. I think my Spearco 2-221 is part of the problem. It is 18"wx6"talland 3.5" thick. Flows 1080CFM @ 1.5PSI drop but is not the most eficient. I did not want to cut my bumper. Now I may have to and have my eye on a larger spearco that flows 1500CFM at 1.5 psi drop. Who has the best prices on a new kock sensor? mark

So why is it that you feel your 60-1 can outflow a 1080 CFM intercooler? Looking at the compressor map, at ~26 psi you should be around the 500 hp mark... that equates to roughly 50 lb of air or ~695 cfm; nowhere near the 1080 cfm limit of the intercooler.

To check if the intercooler is the problem, I'd suggest you look at the increase in inlet temps and make sure they're not getting too hot (for the pressure ratio.)

The 60-1 turbo is considered not a pump gas friendly turbo, which would probably explain why you have to have a very rich a/f ratio just to boost without knocking. Running that rich can have its consequences, however, such as very poor gas milage and/or washing of the rings. Another thing to consider is that running too rich can create rich induced pre-ignition so a leaner a/f ratio might be a little more desirable. The only time that the a/f ratio can be that rich is when running alcohol/methanol injection as the stoichiometric ratio of the two fuels aren't the same.

 

[sweet97]

DEEZ, I don't feel I am overrunning the IC. I believe the IC is not efficient. RRE has an efficiency map of the 2-221 and it looks like the 2-221 is in the upper 50% to lower 60% range for efficiency. I have no printer to print it out and lay a straigjht edge on it and seewhere it truly falls. I may try to get ahold of turbneticsinc to ask about it.
I know about the compressor map of the 60-1 and there are dozens of guys here running that turbo who are also aware and can say the map is not a good indicator of the wheel's capabilities.
How would I perform the test you mention? Sounds as if it will aswer the efficiency question.Thanks for a detailed answer without wise-guy remarks. It's nice to find a member who is concerned about another's set-up and backs it with fact. Mark

 

[CYCLONE]

A 60-1 will not cause you to knock. The turbo is not the best thing on pump gas
because you will never use it to its potential. The 60-1 is intended to run high boost
much more than possible on pump gas. The only way a turbo can cause knock is
if you're running it at max, due to heat.

I have personally run a 60-1, a t57 and right now I'm on a t60. Soon to be replaced
with something slightly bigger since the current one is maxed out (31psi).
Sweet97 I currently have 108k on my bottom end.

A new knock sensor is about $60-70 new.

 

[Burnett03]

A 60-1 will not cause you to knock. The turbo is not the best thing on pump gas
because you will never use it to its potential. The 60-1 is intended to run high boost
much more than possible on pump gas. The only way a turbo can cause knock is
if you're running it at max, due to heat.

I have personally run a 60-1, a t57 and right now I'm on a t60. Soon to be replaced
with something slightly bigger since the current one is maxed out (31psi).
Sweet97 I currently have 108k on my bottom end.

A new knock sensor is about $60-70 new.

What boost level is the 60-1 happy at then?

 

[CYCLONE]

What boost level is the 60-1 happy at then?

There is no happy level. What I was trying to say is that a turbo like the 60-1
will not cause knock from heat, like a t25 would at 18 psi. The only time a turbo
will cause knock is if you push it past its limit. Or boost more that the fuel can handle.

If Sweet97 was trying to run 20psi on a stock turbo I would tell him his turbo might
be the reason its knocking. But since he's running something much larger, I can assure
you that its not the turbo causing the knock.

 

[andymoraitis]

Mark,

While I don't run your particular turbo and cannot vouch for the state of your knock sensor, I do have some recent firsthand experience on the A/F questions that you're going after. When I first ran my GSX, it was dog slow and was unable to trap over 100 mph irrespective of whether I ran 16 psi or 20 psi. The 9.5:1 A/F map in Jeff's chip was killing any power production on the top end. As such, we re-evaluated the tuning and tried two additional chips in the car.

10.5:1 A/F with 19 degrees timing - I ran three back to back pulls on the stock SMIC and checked for knock on pump gas with the boost set at 20 psi. Ambient temps were around 60 degrees.

11:1 A/F with 16 degrees timing - I cooled the car and performed three similar pulls in the same conditions and equivalent boost to see which one would trigger knock.

As it turns out, the 11:1 with lower timing allowed me to run more boost and showed me less knock than the 10.5:1 with more timing advance. I discussed this with Jeff and he recommended that I stick with the 11:1 since I can actually run more boost without triggering knock using that combination on pump.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that in the big tuning equation, I've been taught that if a turbo can support more boost in the context of adequate timing and a leaner A/F, it will make more power than less boost and more timing. Some huge horsepower numbers have been made on pump gas by limiting timing advance to 10 degrees or less, and running big boost with a moderate A/F ratio. I'm not saying this is the correct course for you, but it may be something to consider. Something like this would be a waste for me on the Big 16G, but with a 60-1 it may make a huge difference for you.

Let me know if that spouting mess helps at all,

Andy

P.S. If someone finds all of that to make no sense and contradict known reason, let me know and I'll happily skulk off into the sunset. Do they allow skulking here?

 

[sweet97]

My 60-1 starts boosting at 2300RPM's in 3rd gear and makes good power at 20-22psi. Found a big problem today. Did a compression test. 115 across all 4 cylinders. Rebuild is on the way.
Called Turbonetics, the owner of spearco, and askd about my 2-221 and gt a earful. The guy guessed I was talking about an Eclipse/Talon.Told me the 2-221 as fine and a better FMIC than the popular 2-216, actually more eficcient so the IC has beencleared.
Andy not sue what your second to last paragraph suggests. Less boost? More timng? Less timing it seems. Jeffhas he extended maps in my chip for running pump gass allowing bigger boost on pump.
A search shows the potential of the 60-1 as a street turbo on pump gas. makes good power down low as it flows a lotof air at low boost. The tuurbo is not the issue and according to the guy at Spearco neither is the FMIC. The poor compression surely can't help! mark

 

[andymoraitis]

Mark,

What I was getting at is that if you have a turbo that performs well at say 25-30 psi, then it may be in your best interests to run a moderate A/F (say 10.5:1) and low timing (around 10 degrees or maybe even a bit less). In this way, you can really yank on the boost while on pump and avoid knock issues that would be the result of higher timing. I could be off, but it's just a thought and I know of a few tuners who have made big numbers on pump this way.

Let me know if that makes more sense,

Andy

 

[andymoraitis]

Found a big problem today. Did a compression test. 115 across all 4 cylinders.

Mark,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those cams altering your compression numbers?

Andy

 

[sweet97]

Thanks for making the a/f, timing issue clear. Jeff added extended maps for just such an occasion, higher levels of boost on pump and lower timing to match.
I cannot comment correctly on the cams and their affect on compression readings. I do know of 2 guys with DSM's with cams that have great readings, one near 200 I believe. I'll look into it but I have been quetioning why I have not made more power with my mods.
The 6 bolt is already at the machine shop and the bores are just .001" over stock so I will be able to use stock size pistons. Awaiting the crank measurements. I will have a fresh motor by the end of July!! Thanks,Andy

 

[dnhieu]

We had a guy here in town running a slow boy racing gt 10 i believe and he couldnt make power no matter what he did. this guy had the works and could easily run a very low 12 possibly a mid to high 11. we did a compression check and he had like 125 across the board. i feel it wasnt a tuning issue but because of the lack of compression that was killing his power. guess we will find out when hes got SB's stroker motor tho

eclipse talon laser

 

[dnhieu]

bye the way TTA89 is a very smart tuner lissen to his remarks. the kid is 19-20 years old and already has 2 mid to low 11 second cars