koni/gc - tuning?

[HondaKilla]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
Hypercoils can be gotten from a variety of places. I like Pegasus, but a Google will find some other options. They cost a bit more than ERS springs, but all reports are that they're worth it.

As to this whole "why spend lots of time and money piecing something together when you can just get JICs or Flexes for $1600," here is my answer. I do not like the stock valving on JICs or Teins, and I do not like the fact that compression and rebound are adjusted together. In contrast, I do like the stock valving on Koni Sports and these have rebound-only adjustment. Plus, there are several places with years of experience revalving Konis right here in the US. There's only one good place to send your JICs and no place to send your Teins. (At least, not that I'm aware of - I'd love to be corrected on this.)

Yes, it's kind of annoying to have to go one place for the shocks, another place for the sleeves and perches, and another place for the plates and pillowballs. But if that's what it takes to build a nice set-up in the $1500 range, so be it.

You engine guys, ask yourself this: if you needed to go to several places to get your turbo, injectors, IC, piping, exhaust, etc, would you do it or would you settle for some pre-assembled package that cost about the same, but wasn't exactly what you wanted?

Thought so.

Well, some of us suspension guys are the same way.

- Jtoby

Well I never said anything about flex's and personally think they are shit from my experiance with them. As far as JIC goes, you can send them straight to JIC wich is also right here in the US. As far as I know on the flex's when you adj. the height it messes with the spring rate but on the JIC's it doesnt effect the spring rate what so ever. All I'm saying is that you wont get the handling from a shock/spring setup as you would with a true full coilover set up. Yea they arn't for everyone, but no one can avoid the fact that they will handle better. The other thing I like about them is that if u want something stiffer you can send in your springs and they will send you new ones for a discounted price of $25.00 a peice or just flat out buy them for $50.00...I'll be glad to see you find 4 new springs like those that arn't used for $25.00 that are of good quality. I'm not trying to start a s*** match here nor am I trying to say I'm right and your wrong because it all depends on what the person likes. The only thing im arguing is that you will not get the same performance as you would from the JIC coilovers...

 

[jim97gst]

As far as I know on the flex's when you adj. the height it messes with the spring rate

Untrue. The Flex's have adjustable length shock body just like the JIC's allowing you to adjust ride height independant of spring preload.

 

[my97mitsGSX]

actually with koni struts and ground control hardware and the hypercoil springs.. its going to come out to 900 even w/ shipping... can't go wrong for a good suspension upgrade for the street now can you?

 

[HondaKilla]

Originally posted by jim97gst
Untrue. The Flex's have adjustable length shock body just like the JIC's allowing you to adjust ride height independant of spring preload.

Yea I wasnt totally sure and was to lazy to look it up...Thats why I said "As far as I know." But I still dont like the flex's ...

my97mitsgsx...Yea thats a great suspension and for 900 bux that makes it even better...It all just depends on what you want to do with your car...if you do street with light drag and autox then its just fine...but if your hardcore with your car then I'd say the coilovers are the best choice! Well I hope your happy with your suspension and post up a "review" about it when you get it all in!

 

[my97mitsGSX]

exactly, i'm not hardcore with my car.. i just want to ejoy the daily driving and taking those nice exit/entrance ramp turns.. maybe some drag/autox

900 bucks for suspension upgrade compared to 1600 with JICS's that i won't even use to its potential - i choose the 900 bucks.. the rest of that money will go to sway bars and strut bars.. and it'll still be less then with JICs only..

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by HondaKilla
I totally agree everyone doesnt need them but I have to say that the coilovers will yeild better results in drag, autox and everything else then a shock/spring setup.

The fastest drag cars mostly just run koni's with GC or DSS coilovers.

Some just shocks and lowering springs...

 

[HondaKilla]

Originally posted by MNGSX
The fastest drag cars mostly just run koni's with GC or DSS coilovers.

Some just shocks and lowering springs...

That may be true, but that doesnt dis prove the fact that coilovers would do a better job, that just means they are more worried about sticking their money in the motor and trans...a shock/spring set up does the job just fine in drag but I still say a coilover setup would make it better...I'm sure people like JIC, HKS, Trust, Tomei and Greddy wouldnt be using coilovers if they didnt do a better job dont ya think!?

 

[jtmcinder]

What is it about having a threaded shock body (as opposed to a sleeve that is wrapped around the shock body) that makes a coilover so much better?

The way that I look at it, the most important attribute of a shock is the damping, not whether or not the adjustable lower spring perch came as an integral part of the shock body. So when we're talking about JICs vs Flexes vs some hobbled-together combination centered on Konis, we should be talking about damping.

- Jtoby

 

[HondaKilla]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
What is it about having a threaded shock body (as opposed to a sleeve that is wrapped around the shock body) that makes a coilover so much better?

The way that I look at it, the most important attribute of a shock is the damping, not whether or not the adjustable lower spring perch came as an integral part of the shock body. So when we're talking about JICs vs Flexes vs some hobbled-together combination centered on Konis, we should be talking about damping.

- Jtoby

A coilover system is designed to have the shock and spring work together with better adj. then with a shock/spring setup. Your not going to be able to buy a spring from one company and buy a shock from another and have them work in sinc as good as it would if you just simply bought coilovers. Your not going to get the stiffness from a koni as you are from a coilover such as the JIC's or flex's or whatever...I have used both a koni set up and the JIC coilovers and 2 seperate cars now and both times the coilovers performed ALOT better hands down and everyone else that has tried both set up's will agree. There is just simply no comparison between the 2 besides the fact that there is a spring and shock involved and thats about the only thing thats the same . Look I'm not trying to say im right and someone else is wrong because there is no point in it...in some cases the shock/spring setup does the job just fine for someone and with somebody else it doesnt and they require coilovers...but what is right is that a coilover will simply DO A BETTER JOB!!! If you dont want to spend the money on coilovers fine dont get them, if your not going to get the full use out of them then FINE dont get them, but if you want the best in performance from a suspension GET COILOVERS! geez...

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by HondaKilla
A coilover system is designed to have the shock and spring work together with better adj. then with a shock/spring setup. Your not going to be able to buy a spring from one company and buy a shock from another and have them work in sinc as good as it would if you just simply bought coilovers.

While it is true that most coilovers have springs and shocks that are properly matched, the idea that you cannot do this on your own, using shocks and springs from different companies, etc., is simply false.

Yes, it will be more work and require that you ask a lot of questions, but it can be done. And not only can it be done, but you might be able to match the springs and shocks better than what you get with many true coilovers.

Originally posted by HondaKilla
Your not going to get the stiffness from a koni as you are from a coilover such as the JIC's or flex's or whatever...I have used both a koni set up and the JIC coilovers and 2 seperate cars now and both times the coilovers performed ALOT better hands down and everyone else that has tried both set up's will agree. There is just simply no comparison between the 2 besides the fact that there is a spring and shock involved and thats about the only thing thats the same .

When you talk about the stiffness of JICs and Flexes vs Konis, you are probably responding to the fact that JICs and Flexes have more compression damping than a Koni Sport. But that's not helping the handling. In fact, without a revalve, JICs are Flexes have too much compression damping for the kinds of springs that you want to run. And in neither case can you really deal with this using the adjuster, because it changes both rebound and compression. In other words, if you turn the compression down to where it ought to be, you now have too little rebound.

Konis, in contrast, start off with much more rebound than compression and the adjuster (until the last 1/2 turn) only changes rebound. So the match is better at first and it is also much easier to tune the shocks for the conditions.

Originally posted by HondaKilla
Look I'm not trying to say im right and someone else is wrong because there is no point in it...in some cases the shock/spring setup does the job just fine for someone and with somebody else it doesnt and they require coilovers...but what is right is that a coilover will simply DO A BETTER JOB!!! If you dont want to spend the money on coilovers fine dont get them, if your not going to get the full use out of them then FINE dont get them, but if you want the best in performance from a suspension GET COILOVERS! geez...

Actually, you were saying that someone is wrong because I think that there are ways to cobble together a system that is better than any available coilover that costs about the same amount. (Maybe I wasn't clear enough about this.) In other words, if you hand me $1400 (Flexes) or $1800 (JICs), I will assemble a system based on Koni Sports that will handle better.

No, that's not an ad. It was merely to make a point.

- Jtoby

 

[ACM]

The difference between a Koni coilover kit and Konis with a Ground Control kit is the placement of the threads, period. If one were to buy the GC kit with the same length/rate springs as supplied with the Koni kit nobody - and I do mean nobody - would be able to tell the difference.

My ShockTek Bilsteins utilise a GC-type collar - they are so far superior to JIC/Teins that they're not even vaguely comparable.

The superlative performance of the Penskes on my autocrosser has absolutely zero to do with the location of the spring seat threads. It has everything to do with the design and engineering of the damper and reservioir internals.

You are confusing well-chosen damping rates with hap-hazard spring selection. I can make these Penskes perform every bit as badly as any setup you care to throw together - that's easy.

The efficacy of a suspension kit is based on the people engineering the system and almost nothing to do with the components themselves (alough it is certainly true that one can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear).

Charles

 

[HondaKilla]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
While it is true that most coilovers have springs and shocks that are properly matched, the idea that you cannot do this on your own, using shocks and springs from different companies, etc., is simply false.

Yes, it will be more work and require that you ask a lot of questions, but it can be done. And not only can it be done, but you might be able to match the springs and shocks better than what you get with many true coilovers.


When you talk about the stiffness of JICs and Flexes vs Konis, you are probably responding to the fact that JICs and Flexes have more compression damping than a Koni Sport. But that's not helping the handling. In fact, without a revalve, JICs are Flexes have too much compression damping for the kinds of springs that you want to run. And in neither case can you really deal with this using the adjuster, because it changes both rebound and compression. In other words, if you turn the compression down to where it ought to be, you now have too little rebound.

Konis, in contrast, start off with much more rebound than compression and the adjuster (until the last 1/2 turn) only changes rebound. So the match is better at first and it is also much easier to tune the shocks for the conditions.


Actually, you were saying that someone is wrong because I think that there are ways to cobble together a system that is better than any available coilover that costs about the same amount. (Maybe I wasn't clear enough about this.) In other words, if you hand me $1400 (Flexes) or $1800 (JICs), I will assemble a system based on Koni Sports that will handle better.

No, that's not an ad. It was merely to make a point.

- Jtoby

I never said you couldnt get them to match. I said if you buy a shock from one company and a spring from another they will not. You may be able to somewhat match the performance from the flex or the JIC's, wich I still very well doubt, but I also said coilovers in general. Besides they also make to order special setups through the JIC flt-a2's so I still say that they will match any koni configuration and beat it. I'm not trying to start a shit match here nor am I trying to say I'm right and your wrong like ive said before, I'm stating my oppinion and many people will back me up and many people will back you up, but like I stated in another thread, it all depends on what you want out of your suspension. Also about them having to much compression damping for the springs you want (I'm assuming your talking about the springs that come with them) well the whole setup is geared toward a large crowd of enthusiests so thats why the JIC flt-a2's can be custom ordered, like I already stated, with any spring you want for no extra charge to meet your needs. Here maybe I should rephrase what I said...I THINK that a custom designed coilover system geared toward YOUR needs will preform better then a koni/spring setup custom designed toward YOUR needs. Personally I dont want this to become a bi*** match but I do enjoy these type of discussions because it does hold valuable information to others imo!

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by HondaKilla
I never said you couldnt get them to match. I said if you buy a shock from one company and a spring from another they will not.

I understand what you're saying (I think). I just don't agree. Any given shock works best with a spring of a certain rate (or small range of rates). So, you can always match the shock and spring, no matter who makes them. After all, 400 pounds per inch is 400 pounds per inch, no matter if the spring is Eibach red or Hypercoil blue.

The rest of your post seems to be all about whether or not we are arguing and whether there are lots of people who believe the same as you do ... neither of these things matter to me.

- Jtoby

ps. I'm glad that we've gotten past the idea that coilovers are in some way better than shocks with threaded sleeves around them; that's a popular misconception that needs constant debunking.

 

[HondaKilla]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
I understand what you're saying (I think). I just don't agree. Any given shock works best with a spring of a certain rate (or small range of rates). So, you can always match the shock and spring, no matter who makes them. After all, 400 pounds per inch is 400 pounds per inch, no matter if the spring is Eibach red or Hypercoil blue.

The rest of your post seems to be all about whether or not we are arguing and whether there are lots of people who believe the same as you do ... neither of these things matter to me.

- Jtoby

ps. I'm glad that we've gotten past the idea that coilovers are in some way better than shocks with threaded sleeves around them; that's a popular misconception that needs constant debunking.

A true coilover system, in some areas, is parcticly the same as matching a shock and a (for instance) GC coilover (I will admit that). Where the diffrence comes into play (though) is that the coilover system is matched to each other closer then trying to match a spring and shock, from two diffrent companys, out of the box. Yes you can acheive them goal of getting the spring and shock to match through revalving the shock, but if you want/need something extremly stiff, your not going to be able to get that from a koni as you would from a coilover system. To sum it all up for a better understanding, a coilover system has more adj., can go wayyyyyy stiffer then a koni set up, and imo a coilover system is way my versatile. I have used both a koni setup and a JIC coilover system, and with my findings, the stiffest setting on the konis practicly feel like the softest setting on my coilovers. Now like you stated earlier stiffness isnt always the name of the game but softer definitly ISNT . I simply have to say that when you got a matched coilover system to your needs your going to have better adj. and yeild better results with it then having a koni/coilover setup or a simple koni/spring set up. I have had experiance with all of these setups on 2 diffrent cars (eclipse/240sx) so I can assure you what I'm saying and my oppinions are, well, not coming out of my ass, and everytime I seemed to yeild better results in all aspects with the coilover system. I must say though, the daily drivability with the coilovers can get harsh depending on your settings, so I guess in that area they dont preform so hot ! I'm starting to feel like we are beating a dead horse here with both of us repeating the same things practicly ! Maybe something new can come to the table about differences.

 

[ACM]

HondaKilla,
you seem to think that a "coilover" kit is a magic bullet.

Is this kind of like "a turbo will make your car reeeeaall fast" ?

Coilover simply refers to the location of the spring relative to the damper, nothing more.

I had "coilovers" on my '73 G15 back in '78 - they were CRAP.
Mostly because I didn't know what I was doing and neither did
the supplier. Just because the spring is coaxial to the damper
"don't mean diddly". Nor does having knobs'n'dial to twirl on
the dampers, if they aren't in the ballpark to start with.

Just because some schmuck with a letterhead throws a bunch of
springs and dampers into a box with a bag of trick stickies doesn't
mean they're going to work. Conversely, just because some guy
with a letterhead didn't put a kit together doesn't mean that the parts
won't work in harmony - assuming the person did their homework and understands what they're trying to achive.

Softer definitely isn't ?
Care to go up against Colin Chapman with that assertion ?!?
I'd love to hear you defending that statement.

A matched system is simply that - matching spring rates to damping rates. Do you understand the different modes of damping ? Do you understand the difference between the different types of shock dyno plots ? Do you understand the difference between the half dozen or so piston designs available, Digressive, linear, double digressive, velocity dependent pistons ? Does the guy who threw your "coilover kit" together understand any of this ? Do you (or he) revalve your own dampers ?

If you collect the data on the parts you are considering, if you know the corner weights, if you know the motion ratios, if you know the handling balance youare trying to achieve, and the environment you are working with, you can put together a well-matched kit perfectly suited to your needs. What works on California's pinball-smooth, race-track-grippy roads will shake your fillings out in New Englang; what works well in New England will be needlessly soft and wallowy (is that a word?) in California - and let's not even get into the roads in Georgia - Deal's Gap and TWO.

All you are achieving HondaKilla is exposing your own lack of knowledge and you inability or lack of desire to acquire same.

Not desiring the knowledge is fine, there's nothing wrong with that - but don't project that onto other people, don't assume that simply because you can't do it that must mean that nobody else can, outside of some mythical laborotory somewhere.

Charles

 

[jtmcinder]

HondaKiller -

I've tried my best to explain where your thinking is going wrong (as has Charles), but I've clearly failed. Whether this is because I'm not very good at explaining things or you simply aren't listening I leave to the historians.

- Jtoby

 

[TSiAWD666]

Guys, remember everything he said is just his "opinion" so there's no point in arguing... I mean who says "opinions" have to be justified, based on reality in any way? Sure his source might have been the fortune cookie he had a few days ago, but it's now his "opinion" so just leave it at that.

 

[HondaKilla]

Look I'm not saying im right here and I've explained that. All I'm saying is that buying a coilover kit from a nice name brand is going to give you a closer match between the shock and spring then, for instance, going out and buying konis with some other companys springs. I'm refering my comments to various diffrent auto sports so to sit there and say softer can be better is true but not in all cases. I'm not thinking a coilover system is going to do wonders and magicly make your car do ####ing things. I've also explained you can match a shock/spring combo but with more work. In MY oppinion I think it would be easier to start with a suspension that is matched and go from there to fine tune it. I have no clue who put together your coilover set but that shows no relavince to anything. If your telling me companys like JIC, Tein, and so on are a bunch of morons when it comes to putting together a nice coilover system then I think your sadley mistaken. I've alread stated, but will state again for the record, you can put together a shock/spring combo to compliment each other very nicley, but with, imo, more work. Personally I think the quality of JIC and some Teins are alot better quality then konis with GC's wich is another reason coilovers are my uhh..."magic bullet" I guess most of my experiance comes from drifting from owning my 240 longer then my eclipse and in drifting you want the ass nice and stiff. I also know many of you will bash on drifting and so on but its not as easy as everyone thinks it is either. I personally dont really consider it a sport but it sure is fun as hell to do. Now with that aside. I have listened to both of you and totally understand where you are coming from but maybe you arn't clearly understanding what I'm saying so I hope this can clear it up some. I would have to say it is prolly me who cant explain things very well. Cheers!

 

[njshift]

I'm so glad we have more knowledgeable people in this forum. I can think of 2 in this thread I would really like to thank. I'm just so sick and tired of listening to people who try to dictate their misinformation. We need more members like Charles and Jtoby in the suspension forum.

Doesn't it seem like hondakilla is posting the same thing over and over again? Yet he still doesn't seem to get the point. Sorry about the rant but this is a forum and you guys made my day..

 

[14.5 drift]

Well, to play devils advocate, I dont altogether disagree with hondakiller. I'd like to believe there were a few very educated engineers (much like jtoby and charles here) that spent months of r&d on each of there coil over set ups from companies like jic and tien. They probly have some really cool programs that map out and graph every measurement and calculation to a T. Lots of computer simulations and actual road testing matching and feeling every thing out. I think that is what hondakiller is saying when he keeps saying that they are already matched. One half of me can really appreciate that sort of thing, make me feel confident about the product. But then the cheap skate inside of me takes over and I find myself reading threads like this researching an alternative that could possibly save me 700 bucks and also have a damn fine suspension, this half is the dominant side

 

[jtmcinder]

14.5 -

I think that you're over-reading my side of the argument. I never said that coilovers are not as good as a cobbled-together system by definition, because I'm completely aware that whether or not one company makes all the parts is irrelevant and whether or not it's a sleeve or a threaded shock-body is almost irrelevant. My point has always been that converse is also untrue ... to be clear: coilovers are not by definition better than a cobbled-together system, as was claimed (at first) by HondaKiller.

Going farther: when it comes to 2G DSMs and the spring rates that I want to run, the currently available true coilovers will have to be revalved to make me happy. In contrast, I can (and have) made myself quite happy using OTS parts from various companies. I agree that it was a pain. I was also say that it was worth it, both in terms of the end results and in terms of what I learned along the way.

As to the "lots of experience" and "simulations" part of your post, I agree with you in principle, but must ask such questions as "experience under what conditions?" and "simulations of what kinds of surface?" The roads and tracks that I run on are nothing like the near-perfect gymkhana surfaces in Japan or the road-courses of southern Californicate. This is why I have no interest in running JIC or TEIN levels of compression damping.

- Jtoby

 

[HondaKilla]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
14.5 -

I think that you're over-reading my side of the argument. I never said that coilovers are not as good as a cobbled-together system by definition, because I'm completely aware that whether or not one company makes all the parts is irrelevant and whether or not it's a sleeve or a threaded shock-body is almost irrelevant. My point has always been that converse is also untrue ... to be clear: coilovers are not by definition better than a cobbled-together system, as was claimed (at first) by HondaKiller.

Going farther: when it comes to 2G DSMs and the spring rates that I want to run, the currently available true coilovers will have to be revalved to make me happy. In contrast, I can (and have) made myself quite happy using OTS parts from various companies. I agree that it was a pain. I was also say that it was worth it, both in terms of the end results and in terms of what I learned along the way.

As to the "lots of experience" and "simulations" part of your post, I agree with you in principle, but must ask such questions as "experience under what conditions?" and "simulations of what kinds of surface?" The roads and tracks that I run on are nothing like the near-perfect gymkhana surfaces in Japan or the road-courses of southern Californicate. This is why I have no interest in running JIC or TEIN levels of compression damping.

- Jtoby

First off yes a cobbled together system can very true be better than a coilover system and I understand your part of the argument. Now I'll go ahead and state that my thinking may be wrong just to end future arguments, and correct me if I'm wrong, but to get something as matched as, for instance, the JIC coilovers wont the shocks have to be revalved and so on? IF so a cobbled together system is going to preform as good as a coilover system straight out of the box. Now you said the compression damping of the JIC or the TEIN you have no interest in. JIC makes the FLT-A2 RS series wich is a custom order coilover. You choose the springs, the compression dampining you prefer, and so on. As far as the testing that goes into JIC and TEIN, its very versatile. I know JIC better then TEIN so lemme use them as an example. As you know JIC is also right here in the states. They do testings both in the states and in Japan. If you have ever taken the time out to look at the specs of the JDM JIC coilovers and the states they are very much diffrent. The springs on the coilovers offered in Japan have a much higher spring rate than the coilovers sold in the states. The ones in the states are tested in the states and in many diffrent street conditions. They wouldnt want to loose the business of the daily drivers that want a nice suspension set up now would they!? No. They have also been tested in their own cars for drag racing, drifting, and autox. I'd have to say the most intense testing would have to be for drifting. But ALOT of testing and simulations have gone towards autox and drag. They have a Mazda drag car that features their flagship coilovers (FLT-A2) wich they are doing extensive R & D on. Also a Nissan Skyline R32 that they have been using for drag. Hopefully this might clear some things up.

 

[14.5 drift]

Well when they call a set "street" and then another set "track" it is no less then obvious to me what conditions they might be implying. They do not however have "california streets" and "new england streets" but I am sure they are geared to fit the general spectrem of street conditions one might encounter.

You see I have been planning on putting some lowering springs on my car along with some koni's, I figured they might as well be adjustable. Cheaper than a coil over, better than traditional drop spring, I win twice hehe.

Out of curiosity, has any one tried the really cheap coil over kits off of ebay? these bad dogs paired with some custom springs and koni's?

 

[kiakarimi]

After reading Hondakilla's first 4 or 5 responses, I realized he just kept saying the same thing over and over and i simply stopped reading his responses and only other peoples.

 

[HondaKilla]

Originally posted by kiakarimi
After reading Hondakilla's first 4 or 5 responses, I realized he just kept saying the same thing over and over and i simply stopped reading his responses and only other peoples.

How nice of you to bring imformation that has, well, no relavince to the topic. Maybe if you would read the last post I made you would understand what I'm saying. I wouldnt have to repeat myself if they would understand where I am coming from.