koni/gc - tuning?

[my97mitsGSX]

Ok, I'm going to be receiving my Koni Yellows on Tuesday. I'm looking to just get the ground control perches and plates and use hypercoil springs as recommended by others.

My question is, how do I set the ride height in the vehicle. If I make the fronts and rears match, wouldn't it get thrown off once I sit inside - I weight 195lbs.

My other question is, what spring rates would you recommend for street/drag strip w/ very little autocrossing in mind. is 500/400 good, or should i go something different.

I'm also going with the RM sway bars.. and front strut bar.

Also, what settings on Koni's should I use for street and what setting for drag/autox?

I spent over 2 hours searching and reading about koni/gc and like the setup, but i'm trying to find something more custom for my needs by hearing all your opinions.. if it has been answered, please provide me with links.. and not bs replies

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by my97mitsGSX
Ok, I'm going to be receiving my Koni Yellows on Tuesday. I'm looking to just get the ground control perches and plates and use hypercoil springs as recommended by others.

Remember: throw out the shock-shaft bushings that come with a GC upper plate. Use something softer (of get pillowballs, instead of GC plates) or you will at least have a lot of stiction, if not kill the shocks outright.

My other question is, what spring rates would you recommend for street/drag strip w/ very little autocrossing in mind. is 500/400 good, or should i go something different.

500/400 is more of an autoX setup and is pretty nasty on most public roads (i.e., my 4yo daughter loved it, while my wife hated it ... I've since moved on to 500/450, so you can see to whom I listen, tee hee). Maybe start at 400/300 or 400/325 for a nicer ride. But keep in mind that, even with Konis and GC upper plates, you will need to stop lowering at about 1.5" to make sure that you don't slam the bumpstops. (A lot of the time, when people complain about their ride, it's not the shocks and it's not the springs, it's the ride height being too low [for the given shocks and springs].)

Did I mention not using those shock-shaft bushings from GC? Ask me where my Konis are right now ... yep, in KY getting fixed.

- Jtoby

 

[my97mitsGSX]

what about a 450/350 setup, is that a good mix of street/track? Also, isn't that the max that koni's are made for without revalving?

Also, I want the ride height to be maybe a finger or two gap. Is that too low? I don't want my ride tucked, but i want the least amount of wheel gap. I understand this can hinder performance, but I want to make sure that my shocks don't blow

 

[my97mitsGSX]

so don't get the GC camber plates.. where can I get pillow ball mounts from? any links?

 

[jtmcinder]

If you would like to run low, but also run only medium-stiff springs and have both a good ride and good handling, then you should consider leaving your new Konis in their box and send them straight out for shortening. Take an inch off them, which means a 1/2" off the body and a 1/2" off the shaft. Then you can run a 2-finger gap with 400-450 fronts.

Koni Yellows fronts can take up to 550 without blowing, but you are now beyond their ability to control the spring. I'm at 500 fronts and I'm adding a tad more rebound while they are being rebuilt and shortened. You should be OK without a revalve at 450, so 450/350 sounds fine, although I can't help but suggest that you nudge the rears to 375 or drop the fronts to 425, just to get a bit more weight transfer at the rear.

As to front pillowballs ... call up RoadRaceEngineering and say "Eric wouldn't lie." Yes, I know that sounds weird, but just do it. It's like saying "open sesame."

- Jtoby

 

[90DSMTurboFWD]

Originally posted by jtmcinder


As to front pillowballs ... call up RoadRaceEngineering and say "Eric wouldn't lie." Yes, I know that sounds weird, but just do it. It's like saying "open sesame."

- Jtoby

When someone answers the phone you just say that out right?

Another option is JIC, they make pillowball mounts for DSMs, I e-mailed them and they said 200 + shipping

 

[my97mitsGSX]

so get 375 instead of 350 for the rears..?

who do I send out my koni's too to get them shortened. I'm in NJ.

So...

RM front/rear sway bars
Koni struts, shorted 1"
450/375 ground control (hypercoil springs) (or should i go 500/450 since i want to ride pretty low)?

anyone else but JIC make pillow ball mounts.. is it worth getting them?

any suspension/sway bar bushings needed?

you guys are great help. I can't wait to get my suspension installed.

 

[my97mitsGSX]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
If you would like to run low, but also run only medium-stiff springs and have both a good ride and good handling, then you should consider leaving your new Konis in their box and send them straight out for shortening. Take an inch off them, which means a 1/2" off the body and a 1/2" off the shaft. Then you can run a 2-finger gap with 400-450 fronts.

Koni Yellows fronts can take up to 550 without blowing, but you are now beyond their ability to control the spring. I'm at 500 fronts and I'm adding a tad more rebound while they are being rebuilt and shortened. You should be OK without a revalve at 450, so 450/350 sounds fine, although I can't help but suggest that you nudge the rears to 375 or drop the fronts to 425, just to get a bit more weight transfer at the rear.

As to front pillowballs ... call up RoadRaceEngineering and say "Eric wouldn't lie." Yes, I know that sounds weird, but just do it. It's like saying "open sesame."

- Jtoby

is that like the password to get better service and cheaper prices.. i would think the guy on the other end would laugh..

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by my97mitsGSX
450/375 ground control (hypercoil springs) (or should i go 500/450 since i want to ride pretty low)?

Wait a minute. I thought that we were talking about a street set up. Even with Konis, 450 rear is pretty nasty on public roads. Think about it ... you only have about 650# on each rear wheel and the rar motion ratio is in the 90s.

anyone else but JIC make pillow ball mounts.. is it worth getting them?

Grrr. Yes, RRE sells pillowballs for 2Gs. Are they worth it on a street car ... maybe not.

- Jtoby

 

[my97mitsGSX]

Its mostly going to be a street setup, but I will be doing some drag racing and spirited driving on the twisties.

I want something that will handle decent on the streets/potholes.. I'm not asking for a soft ride, I expect it to be stiff.. but i don't want something that feels like the suspension is missing..

So I'm wondering what spring rates I should go with for mainly a street/strip setup. And if the koni's need revalving, shortening, etc..

I guess i'll get the pillowball mounts anyways..

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by my97mitsGSX
So I'm wondering what spring rates I should go with for mainly a street/strip setup. And if the koni's need revalving, shortening, etc..

I think I already answered, but to be clear: 450/375 with stock valving (although your original plan of 450/350 is fine, too, and will be even nicer on the street). If you're in a hurry, then don't shorten the Konis yet, either. Just drive the car this way for the summer and see if and how often you hit the front bumpstops. If it's seldom, then leave them alone. If it happens enough to be annoying or cause understeer, then put the old stuff back on in the fall and have the Konis worked on over the summer.

Another reason for this suggestion: the backlog at most places that work on Konis is about 6-8 weeks right now. It's the start of racing season ... the last time to be looking for someone to work on your shocks.

- Jtoby

 

[my97mitsGSX]

what i'll do is call ground control monday morning and ask them if they can customize my spring rates for me and maybe let me know if the koni's will need any work. I'll also call up koni and let them know my spring rates.

I want a balanced suspension, like a nuetral feel if that makes any sense? I'm fairly new to how suspension works, I guess I wanted the least amount of understeer, but very little over.. if any i guess..

I also want something decent on the street yet can handle well on the track and road course.

The thing is, my car won't be driveable until probably June.. i'm doing a lot of other stuff like brakes and motor upgrade.

 

[HondaKilla]

In my oppinion, if money allows, Id go with true coilovers from JIC. That would give you the best of, well, every world . If you are going to spend the money on the koni yellows the ground control so called coilovers, and then pillow ball mounts from JIC if you choose, I'd say you'd be better off getting true coilovers because you can find the JIC coilovers for about 1600 wich I would guess isnt that far off from what you've spent. I have the JIC coilovers and do some drag, autox, and spirited driving and these things are great! I have them on my 240sx wich made me choose to get them on my eclipse and I've also had koni set ups on both cars and will never go back! with the flexability of adj. on coilovers its just so much better/easier to get the right feel and fine tuning from a suspension. But thats just my oppinion so take it how you'd like. Although I do hope it helps some in your decision on what to do!

 

[my97mitsGSX]

Originally posted by HondaKilla
In my oppinion, if money allows, Id go with true coilovers from JIC. That would give you the best of, well, every world . If you are going to spend the money on the koni yellows the ground control so called coilovers, and then pillow ball mounts from JIC if you choose, I'd say you'd be better off getting true coilovers because you can find the JIC coilovers for about 1600 wich I would guess isnt that far off from what you've spent. I have the JIC coilovers and do some drag, autox, and spirited driving and these things are great! I have them on my 240sx wich made me choose to get them on my eclipse and I've also had koni set ups on both cars and will never go back! with the flexability of adj. on coilovers its just so much better/easier to get the right feel and fine tuning from a suspension. But thats just my oppinion so take it how you'd like. Although I do hope it helps some in your decision on what to do!

i just spent 570 on the konis

i'm going to spend 400 on ground controls with the spring rates i want..

so for 970, i have almost a complete suspension. All I need are some bushings and pillow ball mount from RRE.. its still way cheaper then JIC..

to be honest.. i had the B+G's on my rsx, and I also had sportlines w/ stock struts.. and i liked my sportlines better..

the b+g's were too soft.. and i never adjusted ride height once i got it set.

i just don't think for my goals, that JIC would be put to the most use.. especially how a lot of people rave on the koni/gc setup

its the same as JIC's or TEIN.. except with less flexibility i guess.. 32 adjustments on the FLEX with EDFC compared to just 5 with koni..

 

[MNGSX]

I spent very little on a used a GC kit...

Then got AGX's for $300 or so shipped.

Then spent about $40 per spring for QA1 springs.. They are a racing suspension component MFG as good as hypercoil... You don't want to know just how cheap an actual individual pillow ball is.. Not a prebuilt plate but the actual pivot that mounts to it... I made mounts like the GC's from some scrap (nice scraps from other projects) and now I'm making my own pillow ball plates... Lets just say I'm under $600 complete...

 

[my97mitsGSX]

what springs should i go with

ERS, Hypercoils, or QA1

where can i get each spring from?

Also can I just get the ground control seat and coil to put my own springs on?

 

[HondaKilla]

Well if you wont get the use from the JIC coilovers, then by all means dont waste the money on them, because there is no point in it if you dont do things to yeild their results. MNGSX, you may have gotten your suspension cheaper then him and obviously then mine but everyone should know cheaper isnt always better. You slack on your suspension and you throw your whole car off with performance ; ). Anyone that knows anything about suspension will agree. I assure you that me and anyone else that has JIC coilovers will say their money was well spent because there isnt anything else for DSM's that are better imo.

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by HondaKilla
Well if you wont get the use from the JIC coilovers, then by all means dont waste the money on them, because there is no point in it if you dont do things to yeild their results. MNGSX, you may have gotten your suspension cheaper then him and obviously then mine but everyone should know cheaper isnt always better. You slack on your suspension and you throw your whole car off with performance ; ). Anyone that knows anything about suspension will agree. I assure you that me and anyone else that has JIC coilovers will say their money was well spent because there isnt anything else for DSM's that are better imo.

Since it is a mostly a drag oriented car I have a big turbo and a decent quality upgraded suspension..

If it was an autox car that somtimes draged i would have a decent basic turbo upgrade (big 28, evo 16g) and JIC's....

JIC's are nice...

Not everyone really needs them.

If someone spent $900 on suspension with the core coponents being KYB' and GC's... Then someone else spent $600 on KYB's, GC'c and better springs than what came with the GC's who is skimping and who just spent more?

I bought ST bars FT and rear used but never installed for $120.. ES bushing master kit only missing the shifter bushings.. I did'nt need them anyway.. for $70...

I have about another $150 into a ingalls camber kit..

Those last three really are'nt part of the coil over.


With the springs ERS is Eibach.. Which comes with a GC kit... I have a set of four pay shipping... I dont want them.

Hypercoils are good..

QA1 is good..

Two companies that really just specialize in racing vehicle components.

You can get the QA1 mail order for around $40... They do stand behind their materials and workmanship...

I run 450/350... Combined with stiff sway bars and ES bushings it is great.. I really think excessive spring rates like 700#'s are never needed on the track with the right suspension components. A good stiff bar will limit roll as much without the harshness. Too stiff (esp with a weight reduction car) may have trouble keeping contact on rougher tracks than a car with softer springs and stiff sway bars. Spring rate is just one factor..

 

[HondaKilla]

I totally agree everyone doesnt need them but I have to say that the coilovers will yeild better results in drag, autox and everything else then a shock/spring setup. Yea if you can get the same set up as someone else cheaper then by all means I'd have to say thats the way to go . But, as I just said, if you do sports that require an upgrade in suspension then a coilover setup is going to yeild better results then a shock/spring setup.

 

[jtmcinder]

Hypercoils can be gotten from a variety of places. I like Pegasus, but a Google will find some other options. They cost a bit more than ERS springs, but all reports are that they're worth it.

As to this whole "why spend lots of time and money piecing something together when you can just get JICs or Flexes for $1600," here is my answer. I do not like the stock valving on JICs or Teins, and I do not like the fact that compression and rebound are adjusted together. In contrast, I do like the stock valving on Koni Sports and these have rebound-only adjustment. Plus, there are several places with years of experience revalving Konis right here in the US. There's only one good place to send your JICs and no place to send your Teins. (At least, not that I'm aware of - I'd love to be corrected on this.)

Yes, it's kind of annoying to have to go one place for the shocks, another place for the sleeves and perches, and another place for the plates and pillowballs. But if that's what it takes to build a nice set-up in the $1500 range, so be it.

You engine guys, ask yourself this: if you needed to go to several places to get your turbo, injectors, IC, piping, exhaust, etc, would you do it or would you settle for some pre-assembled package that cost about the same, but wasn't exactly what you wanted?

Thought so.

Well, some of us suspension guys are the same way.

- Jtoby

 

[ACM]

Jtoby - you know as well as I do that running rates higher than 350 on rear Konis completely overpowers them


Ride height setting. You need bags of sand/gravel in the amount of your full-dressed weight. Pile them up in the driver's seat. Next, disconnect one side of both front and rear anti roll bars and back all damping adjustents out to full soft.

Place a jack under the rear differential, lift the rear just off the ground - to do it right, remove the rear wheels and lower the jack to approximately intended ride height.

Adjust the front collars until both sides of the front are at the same height - bounce the car vigorously to settle it out. Once they're equal go drive the car a little to let everthing seat properly, jack the rear up again and verify the front heights match - if they don't, repeat the above.

Now do the rear - there's nowhere to jack the front up at the lateral CG so leave it on the ground. Adjust the spring collars to get thedeired height, drive it to settle everything, repeat as for the front.

When everything's all set reconnect the anti-roll bars. This is best done with the weight of the car on the wheels (and the sand in the driver's seat) so that any preloading can be quickly identified. If a bar is being preloaded modify one of the end-links accordingly to remove the preload.

Final step - if O-rings were not slid onto the damper shafts when assembled fit Zip-Ties to all 4 damper shafts, slide them down to the damper body. Go ride around on the bumpiest roads you expect to drive on. Jack the car up and look for th zip-ties. If any zip-tie has ended up inside a bumpstop that means either the ride height is too low or the spring is too soft - adjust ride height or spring rate accordingly.


Charles

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by ACM
Jtoby - you know as well as I do that running rates higher than 350 on rear Konis completely overpowers them

For our purposes, maybe, but we're in the minority on this board. In other words, there is what one might suggest for an all-out set-up and there's what will get you 90% of the way there for a reasonable amount of money and effort. Asking rear Koni Sports to control 400s, for example, isn't going to trash them ... it's just that the car would handle a tiny bit better with a slight revalve.

I think that we - (as in you and I, plus a few others) - too often talk about all-out suspensions as if nothing less is worth doing, when that really isn't true. We're weird.

And keep in mind that a Strano or a Daddio in my car on the winter suspension is faster than me on my summer set-up. (Or, at least, it's too close for me to want to think about.) In other words, I should probably stop worrying so much about that last 10%, too.

- Jtoby

 

[my97mitsGSX]

i think i'm going to go with a 450/350 setup with RM front/rear sway bars.. or should I still go 375.. someone said 350 is the most the koni rear's can take

note that my car is stripped.. i only have seats, dash, door panels, and center console.. everything in the rear is empty..

i might put a 12" sub in the back for daily driving.. but otherwise i'm just looking at speakers and no subs for the track.. i need some music in my life..

 

[my97mitsGSX]

ok, 450/350 it is (recommend by GC)

what size springs do I need from hypercoil though?

8" with 2 1/2" diameter? for front and rear?

or go with 7"?

i want to leave the koni's alone.. no revalving if neccessary.

if you know the part numbers, that would help!

Thanks!

 

[jtmcinder]

To be honest, arguing (with yourself or others) about 350 vs 375 rears is getting close to silly. Maybe there's a driver out there who could tell the difference, but he or she probably isn't on this board.

Time to get on the boat and head out to Georges Bank or stay in the harbor and slice the heads off some blue fins, as my uncle would say.

- Jtoby

ps. please don't be insulted; I'm well-known on another list for spending months and months, and gobs of bandwidth agonizing over minutae (and then finally going with what often turns out to be the first option that I had though of)