If you've dyno tuned your cam gears..please post

[turboglenn]

After writing a long "cam tuning for dummies" tech article and playing with mine more tonight I just got to be suriouse of what you guys might hve ended up with, brand of cam and if you have a stock deck/head gasket height.

I know these numbers don't swap over t similar builds as each one "should" be set from a perfect 0 Centerline, but just for kicks throw your numbers out there

I'm on DKS 264/272 cams, stock deck and felpro HG and previously ran the exhaust at 4* retarded, but just went from exhaust at 2* advance and the intake 2* retarded to move the overlap up and then remove 8* of it at the same time... AFR's went LEAN, i mean i had to globally add 13% (what i have on trimable knob on haltech) just to drive to the store with lots of gasping so i know IDC's our going out the window but top end power picked up hugely over the previouse setup for sure..third gear is roasting tires on 25-26psi at 12:1 and only 19* timing from the retard in intake without adjusting the ECU/CAS

 

[autotalon]

I gained close to 10whp going from 0ex/+2in to -4/-4. Kelford 264 cams. They are very close to HKS 272's.

Also you would want to add timing if you retard the intake. 2* crank for every 1 degree cam. ASSuming you have a stand alone.

 

[turboglenn]

autotalon, yea, I spaced that so i've lost 4* of timing with the moive of the intake cam gear but man, i tell ya what, decreasing overlap made HUGE gains on my car. I mean when the but dyno can tell a huge markable difference i've done something right i guess and yea, i have a ahaltech e6x standalone. Also with the decrease in overlap the tendancy to knock is much lower already.. Much happiness on my end right now

also gained vacuum and a better idle at the same time. I couldn't believe the gains to be honest and thought when i started the car that something was wrong because i was so lean at that point which means my previous -4ex/0 intake was letting too much of the old charge spoil the fresh one or was just letting in less air period due to reversion. THe -4ex/0int. did give me gains when i did it from the 0 baseline. But going the opposite direction with overlap and moving the event in relation to the crank made a HUGE gain over that. In order to roast the tires with the LSD in 3rd i usually had to be at 30psi, and am now doing it with 4-5psi less and less timing ( i can't wait to bump the timing back up and tune it out)

unfortunately the fidanza cam gear bolts are stripping more and more with eveery adjustment so i need to go to ACE and score some fresh ones just so i don't have to worry about slippage.

All in all decreasing overlap by 8* was far better than increasing it by 4* and the loss of bottom end (if any) was so negligable that i'm not even concerned with it) and i'm sure once i add the fuel it wants in the low end power will pick up there as well since there's apparently more air getting in (because it went lean everywhere ) so in theory is should have made gains everywhere including the low end over my -4/0 setup

 

[autotalon]

The butt dyno is no way to tell. Get to a real dyno where there is an actual measurement taken.

 

[turboglenn]

I know but if you can feel a major difference i would have t say an improvement was made. and the other way i am noticing is that what use to take 30psi and high timing to accomplish is now taking place with less boost and less timing, so i know i gained. Besides those when fuel requirements increase then air flow has increased. I don't wanna pay for dynot ime untill i get the new turbo on (whenever i can get it that s)

 

[99gst_racer]

Why is more overlap better for the 4G63? With many (or most) of us carrying a peak VE of over 100%, we don't really need any scavenging help to fill the cylinders. I can't think of any other benefit...

 

[blackrosenova40]

Overlap uses the intake air charge to help the exhaust gases flow out of the exhaust ports. This is partly why if you have alot of exhaust back pressure, your engine ve goes down. Reducing overlap should actually hurt idle...

 

[turboglenn]

Why is more overlap better for the 4G63? With many (or most) of us carrying a peak VE of over 100%, we don't really need any scavenging help to fill the cylinders. I can't think of any other benefit...

It's not.. less overlap is better on a turbo engine where exhaust backpressures are going to be too high for scavenging to take place. I decreased my overlap by 8* and got some major gains. Previously I had increased overlap which gave me great mid-range but left it to fall a tad short to top...

With the new timing the only thing i can notice is an ever so slight loss in highway cruising (more noticeable when the AC compressor kicks in and out)

also with reduced overlap i'm getting up towards -18in/hg of vac at idle where as before i only could muster about 13 - 15 at best

OUr cars will gain a bit of mid range (the areas around 0 boost and 0 vac) with more overlap, but once boost comes on less overlap will keep reversion from fouling the new charge and keep the new charge also from being wasted out the exhaust if there was enbough pressure and flow to actually cause this (i say actually because i can only theorize based on previous findings of others as to how much reversion is taking place at a certainboost compared to using the fresh charge to "flush out" the old exhaust)

 

[99gst_racer]

It's not.. less overlap is better on a turbo engine where exhaust backpressures are going to be too high for scavenging to take place.

10-4. That's exactly what I was thinking. I must have misread one of your other posts thinking you were adding overlap.

I have my Kelfords installed straight up right now and have been wanting to degree them for a while now. I just got my solid lifters in the mail last week and I already have everything else that I need to get the job done, so I'll be doing it sometime soon. I'll probably document the procedure and do a little write-up for the site.

 

[turboglenn]

Paul, please keep us informed when you start playing with them. it's said that unless you have crazy lift or high compression ratio that you can safely go +/- 6* on either cam with out worry of checking how much clearnace you're ending up with between piston and valve.

I just came back from getting the AFR's in check, running 15.5:1 cruise and 12.5 wot and the car is feeling great considering i've still got the ignition timing retarded by 4* from the intake cam movement The power at low vacuum is a bit lower (as would be normal on an N/A car as that's it's top end") so i may dial the AFR's a bit richer or do something with the timing to try and get rid of the feeling of the car holding back when the AC compressor kicks on. All in All +2exh and -2int is far far better than the previous -4exh/0'd int

Once i got the idle AFR's dialed in i couldn't keep the idle low even setting the ISC's minimum open to 0 steps, so i've got to do something baout that with the throttle stop ( i eliminated the BISS as it just made the idle more "variable" sometimes high sometimes too low with my setup of the haltech and the rest)

 

[Calan]

Subscribed

I degreed my FP2's to manufactured specs during my rebuild (details here), but I've been thinking about tweaking them for some time now.

Anyone have any proven ACG results for a 2.3l stroker? With the insta-spooling e3 16g, I definitely wouldn't have a problem with shifting the torque curve upwards a bit and/or gaining some umph up top.

 

[turboglenn]

well, i went out to the store and did some tuning on the way ( looped the block more than a few times )
Anyway, not only is the top end much better but i noticed a signifigant amount of extra boost in the areas before spooling normally starts. with the new .63ar hotside (was .48 stage III wheel) I'm spooling up around 4500-4800 in 2nd-3rd but only makiung 1 - 3 psi from 3k to 3800.. OTnight with the new timing i was able to build 3psi right away at 3k and by 3400 i was up near 10psi and by 3800 i had hit 20 and was at the full 25 psi by 4200 with teh car pulling like mad. But with all the extra fuel i'm sure it's gonna kill my mileage. but this is the BEST idle i've ever had since getting cams. the vaccum is almost as high (or low) as stock with about 18in/hg at 1000rpm idle

 

[knochgoon24]

Subscribed

I degreed my FP2's to manufactured specs during my rebuild (details here), but I've been thinking about tweaking them for some time now.

After seeing that, I wonder how much my Comp 101200's are off. I'm really lacking in the low end department even with a small16g in a 6cm^2 housing. WTF
I've been meaning to adjust them a bit just to see if the butt dyno felt anything, but I haven't had time.

 

[viperlp01]

I ordered my Fidanza cam gears yesterday and waiting to put them on. I am going to defidently do some adjustments. I think the cams I have and the stroker is causing my car to become knock happy. I recently put in some e85 and the car hauls but I am still disappointed in the spool up. The HX35 in a .55 ar housing should be spooling faster on my 2.3l. I was seeing 20 psi by 3800 in my stock 2L. I know see 20 psi around 4100. I also have a MAP sensor now so I will be able to make perfect max boost/full spool readings. I am installing the cams and I am going to start off with the +2/-2 right off the bat. I am going to get this damn car happy with timing again.


While i am at it I have been thinking about how the piston velocity is faster on a stroker engine compared to the 2.0. How can I take advantage of the added displacement with my cam gears. Having the intake valve open earlier in the stroke So it has time to fill it up. I might just advance the exhaust. IDK

 

[turboglenn]

Well, I'm going out to my folks house for dinner tonight and will do some tuning and pull some logs alone the way. I"ll have to dig up my microsoft office so i cna post the logs in excell format so practicaly anyone can read them properly without having the haltech software

a couple of things should be evident about the cam timing change when posting logs of both cam timing setups i've ran at this point one thing i would like everyone to see about less overlap on a turbo engine is that it will give you not only better cylinder filling but faster spool, and on the logs with AFR's and injection times you should be able to see the improvements in airflow. Plus the less overlap setup has reduced knock tendancy drastically over having 4* more overlap from the baseline straight up install (the -4exh/0'd int.)

As for the stroker engine i don't know but know have something to study this evening when i'm bored online

I've only found one GOOD article with a guys settings and results to back them up posted and that was a v6 that was n/a with a turbo on it and even had turbo grind cams and the guy set them up to -11intake and +4exhaust and gained power from 4500 to 7500 with 57HP being the peak gain from the "Straight up" or zero'd cam install and a gain of 75hp claimed overall

here's a quote from his thread and the link

The latest tuning session on my 88turbo Grand Am (Daewoo 4-valve head swap) The Daewoo head is very similar to the 3.4DOHC head.

Here are the results. I think the same results will show for the TURBO 3.4DOHC when compared to stock cam settings. (We have seen similar results on originally n/a Honda/Acura engines, both V-tec and non-V-tec).

All runs in second gear, 7-8psi boost.

Stock (actually +4deg. int/exh due to thicker head gasket): Peaked 160whp at 5600. Very narrow powerband, 4500-6000.

Intake -11deg, Exhaust +4deg: Peaked 180whp at 5600. Gained 20whp from 4500-6500, 40whp at 7000, and 57whp at 7500. Boosted quicker, more complete filling of cylinders due to reduced overlap.

Intake -11deg, Exhaust -11deg: Peaked 190whp at 6000. Lost 20whp at 4500, gained 15hp at 7000-7500. Same power curve as stock, just 500rpm higher.

So we gained 75whp with just cam timing!!!!!!

I was limited by non-adjustable cam gears to one-full-tooth movement. One tooth is 7.5 cam/15 crank degrees. There are no such limits with the 3.4!

Summary: For a street-driven, boosted 3.4DOHC, I recommend +4deg. exhaust, -10deg. intake. For a auto trans/street/strip. For full race turbo where traction is an issue, I recommend -4deg. exhaust, -14 intake.

The reduction of 10 or more degrees in overlap is critical for good use of boost. My '96 is set up 0exh, -10int. For the sake of science, I will probably put it back stock before I put it in the car. Then I can make these changes on the dyno for proof. Still, I stick by my recommendations for all you guys running turbos. Again... free dyno time in Atlanta for anyone wanting to test anything on the 3.4DOHC.

Turbo 3.4DOHC cam timing [Archive] - 60DegreeV6.com

 

[viperlp01]

Ya I honestly have been doing so much research on teh cam gear thing. I am running a MLS and I have just my block decked. My head was clean enough to run it. I posted some logs from tonight. 22 psi on e85. I can't double post logs so you will have to check it out on the holset thread. I will have some kind of "dyno tuning" information to share. I will for sure have 70-90 times for ya. ecmlink v3 is getting here tomorrow and I am hopefully getting my cam gears soon as well.

 

[turboglenn]

viperlp01... can't wait to see the dyno info and how muc aligning you have to do to get them baselined at zero with the MLS and with the block decked (you don't happen to know how much was taken off do ya?)

i'm puttin excell on my desktop as I type this so that i can translate my logs to spreadsheet and convert the voltage from the WB02 to actuall AFR numbers
to post.

I was looking tonight and don't really have 2 logs that look exactly alike but i think there's some that have close enough types of pulls to show the gains that were made

 

[viperlp01]

Ya dsmlink has a HP est. So if anything it will show improvements. I also shows this all in a graph so I will notice increases in spool times, airflow, map, ect. I can't wait. I HOPE cam gears net me good improvements. I like e85 but its outta the way and I dd my car 30 miles one way during the sunny months. I would rather get better mpgs. I am pretty excited about this and I hope we get some solid results.

 

[DSMunknown]

Paul, please keep us informed when you start playing with them. it's said that unless you have crazy lift or high compression ratio that you can safely go +/- 6* on either cam with out worry of checking how much clearnace you're ending up with between piston and valve.

Thanks for that lil tidbit. Just was wondering that. Good chat BTW.

 

[Calan]

After seeing that, I wonder how much my Comp 101200's are off. I'm really lacking in the low end department even with a small16g in a 6cm^2 housing. WTF
I've been meaning to adjust them a bit just to see if the butt dyno felt anything, but I haven't had time.

Since the FP grinds are done by Comp and almost identical to their in-house specs (I believe), I'm betting you would see about the same results. Assuming of course that you've done something to modify the engine geometry like I did (machined deck and head, MLS HG)

BTW - Has anyone else noticed the odd-ball size of the locking nuts on the Fidanza gears? A 9mm won't fit, and 10mm is way sloppy. 3/8" is the closest but it is also pretty loose. It almost looks like they are 9.5mm or 23/64" WTF?

 

[turboglenn]

i feel ya on the bolts, my gears were used and on the exhaust side the studs slip and and I have to put an allen in the back and they are even in between metric and SAE... don[t know what's going on over there, but i gotta replace mine as 2 are stripped out on the exh side and the rest aren't in good shape either..the intake gear is fine though. previouse owner way overtightened them on the exh i'm sure, but i got em half price, so what's a couple allen bolts

 

[knochgoon24]

Since the FP grinds are done by Comp and almost identical to their in-house specs (I believe), I'm betting you would see about the same results. Assuming of course that you've done something to modify the engine geometry like I did (machined deck and head, MLS HG)

BTW - Has anyone else noticed the odd-ball size of the locking nuts on the Fidanza gears? A 9mm won't fit, and 10mm is way sloppy. 3/8" is the closest but it is also pretty loose. It almost looks like they are 9.5mm or 23/64" WTF?

Mine used smaller bolts than that. Much smaller. Like 3 or 4mm, or something like that. It took me a while to find a place that had them. All I know is that they're very easy to torque off from over tightening.

 

[Calan]

Thought I would post an update...

I retarded my exhaust cam about 2*, and it looks like I picked up about 20-30HP at around 23psi of boost (ECMlink estimate). It also looks like the power band shifted just a bit higher, with HP peaking at 6239 rpm. (This is on the E3 16g, which has always fallen flat up top with the 2.3L). I also noticed my WB reading about 0.7-1.0 leaner due to the increased overlap.

I haven't experimented with the intake cam yet or tried other values on the exhaust.

 

[99gst_racer]

Craig, your intake cam is still at zero, right?

 

[Calan]

Craig, your intake cam is still at zero, right?

Yeah... it's still where it ended up after degreeing the cams when I did the rebuild. Out of the box and bolted straight up, the intake cam was 3* retarded, and the exhaust cam was 3* advanced. I adjusted both gears to bring the cams back to the specs on FP's cam card when I put the motor together.

So now my exhaust is 2* retarded, and the intake is "straight up", plus the 3* advance that brought it in spec.

Clear as mud?