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I want to talk camshafts

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ohlegend

10+ Year Contributor
581
42
Apr 2, 2012
Pemberville, Ohio
My profile is complete and updated.
Evo3 16G, PR FMIC, Evo3 IM, FP EM, 3" exhaust, Evo8 560cc injectors, - Tuning with ECUFlash

I am going to be tearing my head down this winter to replace seals and guides, and while I was doing that I was thinking about doing cams. There are a lot of options out there and I would like to know what brand and size to get. This is going to be a weekend warrior/ occasional drag strip runner.

I'm just trying to figure out what size I should get - bang for buck. I know im bench racing here, but my current setup is easily around the 300hp mark. What would cams add (Top end, low end?)

BC's website Stock cams:
USDM 4G63 (Eclipse/Talon Turbo) Stock 248°/248°
 
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Piggy-backing off your question- are adjustable time gears even a concern for this hp mark? Had been looking in to them, but not sure they're really needed.
 
With that small of a turbo and setup I wouldn't be worried about top end/low end. A 16g spools extremely quick and dies off extremely quick over 6K and 20+psi. You can go with something like 272 duration cams and keep the lift minimal (brand choosing) but that IMO is still overkill and your boost pressure is still going to fall off dramatically.

The point of upgrading cams is let the engine "breathe" in the presence of larger airflow. With a 16g, its barely taking a half a breath (pardon the metaphor). I'm not saying that larger cams won't benefit your setup, but they will not be worth their weight in gold until you get out of the 30-40lb/min turbo family.

That being said, you also need to consider valve seat pressure. Your nearly 20 year old stock valve springs are not going to take a larger cam without adverse affects. I'm sure there will be a long line of kids who "have done ___ for ___ long" hopping on here, but I'll let you choose if you want to take that path. Just keep in mind stock seat pressure for most 2g springs are going to be around 50-60lbs @ 1.530 of lift. Now subtract your boost pressure from that and you get the idea.

My advice: upgrade your springs and retainers, get a set of cams in the 268-272 duration family.

As for savage's question there's only one way to degree cams and that's with adjustable cam gears and measuring true valve events. so if you don't want to properly degree your cams, then don't get cam gears. trust me when I say its been done by thousands of amateur car enthusiasts.

Good luck, have fun.
 
No that would be next step up from stock. I had 264s with a 14b 2g auto fwd and it was a blast. The combo hit at almost the same time. They are good from a low rpm to high mid range but after that...... But it was quick. I could take v8 mustangs and such but can't talk about that.

I also didn't have adjustable cam gears. I just set the cams and to top dead, put on timing belt and off I went.
 
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I run Kelford 264's in my setup which is an FP HTA76. I chose the 264s because I swapped to auto so I wanted a cam that will help me get on the converter. Kelford is a more aggressive cam which still allows some up top. The spool on these cams are a lot quicker than the FP2's(272s) I use to run but have not tested the flow up top much yet (Still working kinks out in the tune). You want to choose a cam that is best for your target power range. Don't buy a cam that will flow massive amounts of air at 9k+ if your turbo dies out at 7.5k+.

We have similar bolt on mods besides the turbo, I run the evo 3 IM, FP exhaust manifold, VRSF front mount. The difference is the turbo which is why I went with the aggressive set of 264s as the HTA76 will flow higher up. If I were in your situation, I would look for some HKS 264's or similar cam. I have never ran it but I hear/read good things about them. They will still have great streetability but allow you to make some power for your weekend warrior missions.
 
I run Kelford 264's in my setup which is an FP HTA76. I chose the 264s because I swapped to auto so I wanted a cam that will help me get on the converter. Kelford is a more aggressive cam which still allows some up top. The spool on these cams are a lot quicker than the FP2's(272s) I use to run but have not tested the flow up top much yet (Still working kinks out in the tune). You want to choose a cam that is best for your target power range. Don't buy a cam that will flow massive amounts of air at 9k+ if your turbo dies out at 7.5k+.

We have similar bolt on mods besides the turbo, I run the evo 3 IM, FP exhaust manifold, VRSF front mount. The difference is the turbo which is why I went with the aggressive set of 264s as the HTA76 will flow higher up. If I were in your situation, I would look for some HKS 264's or similar cam. I have never ran it but I hear/read good things about them. They will still have great streetability but allow you to make some power for your weekend warrior missions.

Need to get some info off you. Before I begin, I am still trying to figure out why people compare the FP2's to HKS 272's when the duration is 259/258. Unless I am just totally confused on that.

Anyway, so here's the deal. I have the same turbo as you, and I LOVE it. Took me 130.75 in the 1/4 at 3395lbs with me in the car. That was on HKS 272's. I am auto AWD and I could brake boost without nitrous on the line with this setup.

Fast forward to now. I have GSC S2's (274/274) and they are a b*tch to get to light up the converter with. I have done it, but only with cold ambient air temps. I don't want to mess with nitrous, so I have some decisions to make. Now I have a set of comp 101200's/FP2's in the garage. I know for a fact I can light the converter up with them, but my question is, where are they going to stop making power? Are they really limited to 7300rpm? Your 264's are probably closer to the FP2's than the S2's, (correct me if I am wrong). So I guess what I am asking is, where do you run out of power? The HKS cams I was shifting around 8000-8200. These S2's pull for DAYS with this turbo, but I just have such a hard time getting on the converter. How much power am I looking at losing by going from an S2 to FP2?
 

Sorry, I'm new to the dsm world, I'm looking into the s2s for my build, but what do you mean they're a pain to get on the converter?
 
Need to get some info off you. Before I begin, I am still trying to figure out why people compare the FP2's to HKS 272's when the duration is 259/258. Unless I am just totally confused on that.

Anyway, so here's the deal. I have the same turbo as you, and I LOVE it. Took me 130.75 in the 1/4 at 3395lbs with me in the car. That was on HKS 272's. I am auto AWD and I could brake boost without nitrous on the line with this setup.

Fast forward to now. I have GSC S2's (274/274) and they are a b*tch to get to light up the converter with. I have done it, but only with cold ambient air temps. I don't want to mess with nitrous, so I have some decisions to make. Now I have a set of comp 101200's/FP2's in the garage. I know for a fact I can light the converter up with them, but my question is, where are they going to stop making power? Are they really limited to 7300rpm? Your 264's are probably closer to the FP2's than the S2's, (correct me if I am wrong). So I guess what I am asking is, where do you run out of power? The HKS cams I was shifting around 8000-8200. These S2's pull for DAYS with this turbo, but I just have such a hard time getting on the converter. How much power am I looking at losing by going from an S2 to FP2?

Not to try and thread jack the OP but I will answer your questions here for the ease of things and for more "camshaft talk".

Some compare those two cams because they fit in to the category of a "272" cam. Honestly I don't pay too much attention to when a cam is labeled beside a starting point. Every cam is going to be different on when it targets the power band and how they flow in the higher rpms.

I haven't tested the Kelford 264's in the higher rpms yet but I can talk about the FP2's. I ran the FP2's up to 9.5k and they held strong with a Borg s259 ETT, this was on a manual transmission. The kelford 264's are on the aggressive side of a "264" camshaft which was appealing to me for the 8k+ rpms. If you have a set of FP2's and you can get up on the converter with them, I would not hesitate to put them in as they are great. I made 580 AWHP revving to 9.5k with those cams and were very street friendly.

I think you should focus first on getting a cam that allows you to get up on the converter since you don't want to run nitrous. You may lose a little up top in comparison to the S2. The FP2 is the best of both worlds in your scenario in my personal opinion. You will gain the ability to get up on your converter but yet making power up top.
 
Piggy-backing off your question- are adjustable time gears even a concern for this hp mark? Had been looking in to them, but not sure they're really needed.
short answer No.

Diffe
Need to get some info off you. Before I begin, I am still trying to figure out why people compare the FP2's to HKS 272's when the duration is 259/258. Unless I am just totally confused on that.

Anyway, so here's the deal. I have the same turbo as you, and I LOVE it. Took me 130.75 in the 1/4 at 3395lbs with me in the car. That was on HKS 272's. I am auto AWD and I could brake boost without nitrous on the line with this setup.

Fast forward to now. I have GSC S2's (274/274) and they are a b*tch to get to light up the converter with. I have done it, but only with cold ambient air temps. I don't want to mess with nitrous, so I have some decisions to make. Now I have a set of comp 101200's/FP2's in the garage. I know for a fact I can light the converter up with them, but my question is, where are they going to stop making power? Are they really limited to 7300rpm? Your 264's are probably closer to the FP2's than the S2's, (correct me if I am wrong). So I guess what I am asking is, where do you run out of power? The HKS cams I was shifting around 8000-8200. These S2's pull for DAYS with this turbo, but I just have such a hard time getting on the converter. How much power am I looking at losing by going from an S2 to FP2?
Different story with your set up you definitely need cam gears! Cam gears will allow to to dial out some of the overlap at the same time take advantage of the higher lift cam profile. The s2 are very similar to what I run in lift duration and the like. And no the fp2's and s2 are no way the same as Hks 264s.
 
Diffe

Different story with your set up you definitely need cam gears! Cam gears will allow to to dial out some of the overlap at the same time take advantage of the higher lift cam profile. The s2 are very similar to what I run in lift duration and the like. And no the fp2's and s2 are no way the same as Hks 264s.

I have adjustables. On my old motor I was eventually able to get over the "hump" by taking the exhaust cam back quite a few degrees. It had to work harder than I really cared for to do that though. This go around I am going to try advancing the intake instead to see if that helps. If that doesn't work, then one of two things will happen. The FP2's are going back in, OR I am running a small shot of nitrous. I know nitrous will work because it's going to cool the intake temps. Funny little thing I noticed which actually makes sense; when my IAT's are 70f-80f, I can get over the hump with the S2's; but when the car has been operating a while/cruising and IAT's are in the 110f area....they will NOT get over the hump. The car will hang out around 2800rpm and 2-3psi.

I'll play with the gears some more and go from there.
 
Diffe

Different story with your set up you definitely need cam gears! Cam gears will allow to to dial out some of the overlap at the same time take advantage of the higher lift cam profile. The s2 are very similar to what I run in lift duration and the like. And no the fp2's and s2 are no way the same as Hks 264s.

He was comparing them to Kelford 264's not HKS 264's.
 
He was comparing them to Kelford 264's not HKS 264's.
Gotcha thanks for the correction!

I have adjustables. On my old motor I was eventually able to get over the "hump" by taking the exhaust cam back quite a few degrees. It had to work harder than I really cared for to do that though. This go around I am going to try advancing the intake instead to see if that helps. If that doesn't work, then one of two things will happen. The FP2's are going back in, OR I am running a small shot of nitrous. I know nitrous will work because it's going to cool the intake temps. Funny little thing I noticed which actually makes sense; when my IAT's are 70f-80f, I can get over the hump with the S2's; but when the car has been operating a while/cruising and IAT's are in the 110f area....they will NOT get over the hump. The car will hang out around 2800rpm and 2-3psi.

I'll play with the gears some more and go from there.
Yeah on try a little adjustment on the intake gear shold help a lot. Remember when you adjust the intake you have to also reset ignition timing.
 
Yeah on try a little adjustment on the intake gear shold help a lot. Remember when you adjust the intake you have to also reset ignition timing.

Yeah, I know. That's why I was playing with the exhaust instead so I didn't have to go through the process of resetting base timing each time I mess wit h he intake. Not that it's hard...just a tedious pita.
 
Curt Browns word for word response to what his 500hp evo 16g setup:

"JMF street and fp4r's
Gsc s2's work better
Used a ported evo3 O2"

Curt is the man! He built the block and head that are currently on my car. When I was talking with him, he said he made 650whp on an 11:1 motor he built with no meth injection or e85....straight 93.

He knows his stuff.
 
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