How to set TDC when timing belt is set wrong?

[Spoolin4Ever]

TIming tensioner was not tight enough, and timing belt slipped a tooth or 2.

I want to reset the timing.

My question is how do I know when I have it in the right position before resetting the timing belt? So right now when I rotate the engine by hand, and the cams are lined up, the bottom timing mark always ends up on the last mark on the timing marks down below (this is with the timing belt lower cover still on). I turned the engine six times and it always is like that when the cams are lined up.

So since it's timed wrong, how do I know how much to turn it so that I can then reset it?

Should I turn it so the cams line up, and just retime? What about the piston positions? Which is the bigger priority?

Also I may need to pull the head, I have zero compression in number 2 cylinder, i was hoping if I reset the timing it might be back to normal. If not then I pull the head.

 

[white92talontsi]

You would need to get the crank on it's mark first. You can use a long screwdriver to sit on the top of the number one piston and turn the crank until it is all the way up and then verify it is by checking the mark.
Then you would need to get your cams set with the dowel pins straight up and the marks pointing towards each other.

You can do that and see if the car will run but you may have some bent valves depending on how far the belt slipped.

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

You would need to get the crank on it's mark first. You can use a long screwdriver to sit on the top of the number one piston and turn the crank until it is all the way up and then verify it is by checking the mark.
Then you would need to get your cams set with the dowel pins straight up and the marks pointing towards each other.

You can do that and see if the car will run but you may have some bent valves depending on how far the belt slipped.

SO turn it so the lower mark is where it should be, and the number one piston is the highest up? At that point, I can reset the timing belt, and/or pull the head? IS that where I want it when I pull the head too?

Thanks really appreciate your expertise.

 

[SrKegler]

You're going to have to pull the front cover off to reset the timing. With all the work involved, it will be simpler to go ahead and remove the head, replace the timing belt, tensioner, water pump and the pulleys.

That way you'll be good for another 60,000 miles.

There's no way to reset mechanical timing without removing the timing belt.

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

You're going to have to pull the front cover off to reset the timing. With all the work involved, it will be simpler to go ahead and remove the head, replace the timing belt, tensioner, water pump and the pulleys.

That way you'll be good for another 60,000 miles.

There's no way to reset mechanical timing without removing the timing belt.

I asked where to rotate the best before pulling the timing belt, not if I could reset the belt without removing it.

The belt and stuff is new from when I did it before....I didn't tighten the tensioner enough last time.

Are you for sure 100% that zero compression in cylinder #2 means a burnt valve?

You are 100% sure that I shouldn't reset the timing first just in case?

There's 20K miles on it since i did it.

 

[white92talontsi]

You're going to have to pull the front cover off to reset the timing. With all the work involved, it will be simpler to go ahead and remove the head, replace the timing belt, tensioner, water pump and the pulleys.

That way you'll be good for another 60,000 miles.

There's no way to reset mechanical timing without removing the timing belt.

Not entirely true, If you have the special tool you can depress the hydraulic tensioner enough that you can "slip" the belt enough to reset the timing without removing the lower cover.


O.P. it does not matter where the timing belt is before you pull the head.

I asked where to rotate the best before pulling the timing belt, not if I could reset the belt without removing it.

The belt and stuff is new from when I did it before....I didn't tighten the tensioner enough last time.

Are you for sure 100% that zero compression in cylinder #2 means a burnt valve?

You are 100% sure that I shouldn't reset the timing first just in case?

There's 20K miles on it since i did it.

man that's pretty close honestly. You may have other issues. you are like 1 to 1 1/2 degrees BTDC.


Base timing is 5 degrees BTDC. On your timing cover this is between the T and the 10

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

Not entirely true, If you have the special tool you can depress the hydraulic tensioner enough that you can "slip" the belt enough to reset the timing without removing the lower cover.


O.P. it does not matter where the timing belt is before you pull the head.




man that's pretty close honestly. You may have other issues. you are like 1 to 1 1/2 degrees BTDC.


Base timing is 5 degrees BTDC. On your timing cover this is between the T and the 10

Compression test said 185, zero, 30, 60

It's a standard stock 6 bolt rebuilt....

Wait a minute, you are right it is pretty close.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...-1g-2g-quick-timing-belt-alignment-check.html

Well I ran it lean a while but weird that'd I'd have 185 in one cylinder though if the timing is right?

Dang!

UPDATE:
Hey my timing lines up on every 2 rotations! Not every 4 or 6 or whatever, so something is not working right! What would make it do that?

And yeah the compression test said 185-0-30-60

 

[white92talontsi]

Compression test said 185, zero, 30, 60

It's a standard stock 6 bolt rebuilt....

Wait a minute, you are right it is pretty close.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...-1g-2g-quick-timing-belt-alignment-check.html

Well I ran it lean a while but weird that'd I'd have 185 in one cylinder though if the timing is right?

Dang!

UPDATE:
Hey my timing lines up on every 2 rotations! Not every 4 or 6 or whatever, so something is not working right! What would make it do that?

And yeah the compression test said 185-0-30-60

If you ran it lean you may have other issues. Never know. Stick a long screwdriver or something down in the cylinder with 0 compression and then turn the crank just for shit's and giggles to see if the rod and the piston are still connected to the crankshaft.

I doubt that will be the case, What I believe is the case is that you may have run it lean enough to get enough detonation to lift the head and blow the gasket.

At this point you will need to do a leakdown test.

 

[romeen]

Compression test said 185, zero, 30, 60

What I believe is the case is that you may have run it lean enough to get enough detonation to lift the head and blow the gasket.

At this point you will need to do a leakdown test.

Looking at your compression results from cylinders 3-2-1 (last 3 listed) I agree with white92talontsi that it is more likely a blown head gasket.


Edit: I wouldn't rely on alignment of the crank pulley relative to the lower timing cover to check timing since it's possible for a separated harmonic dampener to give inaccurate results (as demonstrated in this thread: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cylinder-head-short-block/301391-resolved-my-timing-off.html). You really should remove the timing covers and use the crank sprocket (and associated components) to verify timing.

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

If you ran it lean you may have other issues. Never know. Stick a long screwdriver or something down in the cylinder with 0 compression and then turn the crank just for shit's and giggles to see if the rod and the piston are still connected to the crankshaft.

I doubt that will be the case, What I believe is the case is that you may have run it lean enough to get enough detonation to lift the head and blow the gasket.

At this point you will need to do a leakdown test.

Can that also cause high compression? This was a 150 across the board before.

Looking at your compression results from cylinders 3-2-1 (last 3 listed) I agree with white92talontsi that it is more likely a blown head gasket.


Edit: I wouldn't rely on alignment of the crank pulley relative to the lower timing cover to check timing since it's possible for a separated harmonic dampener to give inaccurate results (as demonstrated in this thread: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cylinder-head-short-block/301391-resolved-my-timing-off.html). You really should remove the timing covers and use the crank sprocket (and associated components) to verify timing.

The harmonic dampener is still good.

 

[white92talontsi]

you can verify if the crank is definitely on the mark if you question the harmonic balancer.

What you do here is hold a level across the balancer, if the crank is in the correct position the small roll pin hole between the 2 balancer bolts will point perfectly to the front of the car and will line up when the level is set in the middle of the balancer.

I would not worry about the high compression reading. I would pull the head and see what is going on.

 

[BWeston]

i'm having to reset the timing on a 6bolt swap as well, I was curious as to which stroke the #1piston needs to be on

 

[white92talontsi]

Number 1 when it is at TDC can be on either stroke depending on where the cams are set.

If the belt is off then just set number 1 TDC and then set the cams.

 

[BWeston]

Number 1 when it is at TDC can be on either stroke depending on where the cams are set.

If the belt is off then just set number 1 TDC and then set the cams.

I thought basic timing was 5 degrees before tdc on the crank, and the cam marks had to be lined up with the dowel pins facing straight up

 

[delta448]

Base timing is 5 degrees BTDC. On your timing cover this is between the T and the 10

That's base IGNITION timing. As in, where a timing light will align the crank with a flash corresponding to the spark event in cylinder 1. Mechanical timing should always be set with the crank aligned at true TDC on #1.

Compression test said 185, zero, 30, 60

It's a standard stock 6 bolt rebuilt....

Your camshaft alignment is definitely off. A 6 bolt with stock compression pistons should not hit 185psi of compression. That zero looks like very bad news as well.

Hey my timing lines up on every 2 rotations! Not every 4 or 6 or whatever, so something is not working right! What would make it do that?

If you're only checking the cams and crank, it does line up every 2 revolutions. The cams are driven 1/2 of crank speed and the oil pump sprocket is driven at 1/3 crank speed, so all the marks will only align on every 6th rev.

I thought basic timing was 5 degrees before tdc on the crank, and the cam marks had to be lined up with the dowel pins facing straight up

Dowel pins should be straight up and crank at TDC on #1. Base ignition timing is 5* BTDC.