how hard is it to build a 250 horsepower all motor 420a?

[RadDsm]

And tell anyone trying to convince you to get a turbo model to piss off.

You shouldn't tell someone to piss off when they give you good advice.
Let's be honest, the 420a is an econobox engine made to be reliable and get good gas mileage.

 

[92EagleAWD]

Let's be honest, the 420a is an econobox engine made to be reliable and get good gas mileage.

Too bad they barely achieve only 1 of those goals...

 

[talon1616]

im buying a tsi awd to. i want to build a 420a all motor because i dont want to be like everyone else and get the 4g63. when you get that all the work done for you. thats no fun. i want to build my own.

 

[jakelandry]

You shouldn't tell someone to piss off when they give you good advice.
Let's be honest, the 420a is an econobox engine made to be reliable and get good gas mileage.

I tell people to piss off when they suggest my opinion is not as good as theirs and that i am wrong for lack of conformity. Yes the 420a is an econoline motor structure. Simple, reliable, and cheap. However, it has just as much potential as the next 4 cylinder. It has many parts readilly available, its been proven to make big numbers, and its easy to work on. Just because its compared to an already turboed motor its "shit". That comparison just sounds like some youtube muscle vs tuner bullshit. Im just tired of people thinking they're better than other people because their motor is a better platform. I dont see any 420a guys suggesting to turbo guys to get a 420a whenever people get on here and bi*** in threads about their gas milage or anything. We all like our cars and we all start threads on here to learn about OUR cars, not for people to state facts about their cars.

 

[Hideki]

I actually would like to see a higher horsepower 420a, I'll agree it'll cost an arm and a leg. Expect a set of one-off ITB's, crazy cams, and rediculous compression ratio. But it would be pretty cool. Pointless, but cool.

 

[Shake_Zulla]

im buying a tsi awd to. i want to build a 420a all motor because i dont want to be like everyone else and get the 4g63. when you get that all the work done for you. thats no fun. i want to build my own.

If you want to build an all motor car your in for a lot of work and if you are asking these questions it is doubtfull that you will make over 200bhp. Not trying to be mean just trying to give you the straight truth. If you think about it people have been trying to build up an all motor 420a for 15 years now and the record is just over 210hp (can't remember for sure) so chances are not that good that a new guys going to jump in and smoke them all by 40hp. If you want to build a NA your biggest mod is going to be a higher compression piston, don't worry about the bore for now. Now as for the comments about 420a not being a "good platform" for a F/I car take it lightly. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes. Most people who say sell it and buy a gst really show thier ignorance. If that was the correct thinking in the matter then really they should sell their gsx and buy an Evo or if 1/4 mile was what they wanted it would be "less money" to get an older charger, or simular, and build that up but why don't they do that? Because it comes down to preference, knowing your goals, and availability. I want to make just over 300bhp and I happen to have done 3 different rebuilds on the 420a so I am familiar with it plus I picked one up that needed some work for 500 bucks when no gst/gsx was available. Does that mean I'm stupid? No. Is there a gst that runs out there for 500 bucks? Probably, however, it comes down to preference, knowing your goals, and availability. Back to the OP: My best advice is do the research and learn what your options are to build a plan and decide what you want to do that way you can make your own decisions. Then, armed with a little knowledge, you can ask more specific questions and weed out the 420a vrs 4g63 argument that takes over these threads with too general questions.

PS I think the only people who search 420a threads more that 420a guys are the 4g63 owners

 

[Carter_95RS]

Look up DSM ZERO if you want to see big 420a power.

 

[JusMX141]

Yes the 420a is an econoline motor structure. Simple, reliable, and cheap. However, it has just as much potential as the next 4 cylinder.

Overall potential it does have- potential in comparison to a 4G63 when boosted it does not.

This has nothing to do with what I prefer- it's simply proven by the masses. If it had just as much potential as a 4G63 when built and boosted, more guys would be doing so....and why not- you can buy a RS or GS for practically nothing in comparison to a GST / GSX, and they're cheaper to insure.


I've owned and driven a non-turbo 4G63 as well as a non-turbo 420A. In a back-to-back comparison, the non-turbo 4G63 has torque like a stroker down low where the 420A needs a downshift, while the 420A is perfectly happy being revved out. The 4G63 non-turbo is a great commuter because you don't have to shift as much- in fact, pulling out in second gear is totally acceptable on all but steep uphills. The 420A would be more preferred on the highway, and the 420A also seems to get better fuel mileage than the 4G63 even though a 2G car is slightly heavier than a 1G.

 

[Shake_Zulla]

I've owned and driven a non-turbo 4G63 as well as a non-turbo 420A. In a back-to-back comparison, the non-turbo 4G63 has torque like a stroker down low where the 420A needs a downshift, while the 420A is perfectly happy being revved out. The 4G63 non-turbo is a great commuter because you don't have to shift as much- in fact, pulling out in second gear is totally acceptable on all but steep uphills. The 420A would be more preferred on the highway, and the 420A also seems to get better fuel mileage than the 4G63 even though a 2G car is slightly heavier than a 1G.

I would wrather see a side to side dino comparison of the two NA blocks to make my final decision in contrast to your feelings on driving both. Not that I don't trust your judgement, it's just that there is too many factors that go into the two blocks like the transmission being the biggest the factor and the fact that the 1st gen na 4g63 is a lighter car. Also I hope you arn't talking about the 2g spider too, though I don't think you would make that mistake. Not trying to add fuel to the fire, however, saying one is better than the other because you've drove them both is kinda a weak argument. Just MO though

This has nothing to do with what I prefer- it's simply proven by the masses. If it had just as much potential as a 4G63 when built and boosted, more guys would be doing so....and why not- you can buy a RS or GS for practically nothing in comparison to a GST / GSX, and they're cheaper to insure.

Also your saying here that the path of least resistance is the best one. Not a strong argument it's more of circular logic. I would have an easier time following closed deck vrs semi-closed deck reasoning.

 

[ramsack]

420a > n/t 4g63. 9.6:1 vs. 9.0:1 is most of the story. Comparing a 1g car/ECU with a n/t 4g63 to a 2g car/ECU with a 420a is like apples and oranges. One car is heavier, one car is lighter, one ECU is tuned for strict emissions, one ECU isn't subject to such strict standards. Totally different gear ratios, too. Take a 420a and a 4g63 and put them on a dyno, both tuned with something like an EMS to get the maximum out of both and I bet the 420a will put down more.

 

[JusMX141]

I would wrather see a side to side dino comparison of the two NA blocks to make my final decision in contrast to your feelings on driving both.

We're talking about automobiles here, not dinosaurs.

What I'm using as my judgement is drivability- is has nothing to do with how much horsepower something makes in stock form. If you do a lot of city driving where you lug the engine more than rev it, you'll appreciate the torque that the non-turbo 4G63 will give you. If you drive like a maniac with the car tached up above 3k all the time, the 420A is for you.

...although unless you live in Europe where there are 2G non-turbos with 4G63's, this whole debate is moot; it's not like you have a choice of what engine you want in a non-turbo 2G.

Not trying to add fuel to the fire, however, saying one is better than the other because you've drove them both is kinda a weak argument. Just MO though

...and to believe that someone would buy a certain car simply based on the results at the dyno is also ridiculous to assume. Who would go and test-drive a Toyota Rav4 and Ford Escape and take both of them to their local tuning shop with full intention of buying the one which makes the most power to the wheels, not giving a shit about comfort, drivability, and price?

Actually I believe this whole 420A versus 4G63 argument is ridiculous- especially considering I own both. I simply add input from my personal standpoint and it gets picked apart by a New Member. Go figure.

 

[jakelandry]

not.

If it had just as much potential as a 4G63 when built and boosted, more guys would be doing so....and why not- you can buy a RS or GS for practically nothing in comparison to a GST / GSX, and they're cheaper to insure.:

Because its an overwhelming feat to think you can work with something that you have to rebuild top to bottom. Most people want to take the easiest route possible. People like the thought of bolt ons making 350 hp. Not only that but people hear fwd and thats an instant turndown. Then they realize the lack of transmission possibilities in general and just go turboed. Theres more civics out there with v8's in them then there are well built 420a's simply because its easier to put a v8 in a civic than to build the 420a. Its frowned upon because its not cheap. My argument is not that the 420a is better than the 4g63,it is the fact that there is no need to frown upon people wanting to work with the base model. I would kill for a 2g gsx, in fact i have $8000 cash in my pocket right now and i still cannot get my hands on one locally. However, theyre not for everyone.

 

[Dr Gnarlson]

i say try and go for the 250 N/A mark. yes boosting it is the easier and cheaper way, but then if you wanted cheap and easy why not just buy an evo or something that comes with balls of power. But im assuming that that is not the case, So go for it do crap tons of research and what not on different N/A cars to try to dig up what they do to up the horses for their cars. But im just a noob, so you can take what i said and throw it out for all its worth.

 

[richard33]

im buying a tsi awd to. i want to build a 420a all motor because i dont want to be like everyone else and get the 4g63. when you get that all the work done for you. thats no fun. i want to build my own.

so you want to spend thousands of dollars on an all motor 420a and still be slower than a stock GST? Brilliant.

 

[jakelandry]

so you want to spend thousands of dollars on an all motor 420a and still be slower than a stock GST? Brilliant.

Well for that matter we could all just go out and buy an f body. And a 250 hp na car would be fairly fast man.

 

[RadDsm]

250hp, whether n/a or turbo is still slow.

 

[jakelandry]

250hp, whether n/a or turbo is still slow.

213hp = 13's.. What do you expect 250 to be? 12's IMO are no slow.

 

[RadDsm]

213hp = 13's.. What do you expect 250 to be? 12's IMO are no slow.

I'm not going to bench race with you.

The 13's were done with a drag car on slicks.

 

[jakelandry]

I'm not going to bench race with you.

The 13's were done with a drag car on slicks.

So your implying that 250 couldn't make 12's? Slicks are just as obtainable as anything else in the scenario of a several thousand dollar build. I'm just saying 250hp/12's is fast... Fast being a relative term. In relation with a 420a that is a number which is considered fast.

 

[Fotowntalon]

so you want to spend thousands of dollars on an all motor 420a and still be slower than a stock GST? Brilliant.

250hp, whether n/a or turbo is still slow.

Wow this thread went from off-topic to stupid people talking out there ass about things they know nothing about

 

[RadDsm]

Wow this thread went from off-topic to stupid people talking out there ass about things they know nothing about

You think I don't know anything about a 250hp car? 250hp is slow, your car is slow.
Does insulting someone's intelligence make you feel better?

 

[Fotowntalon]

Does contributing nothing at all to a thread make you feel better? Are you one of the many asshats who sit there and search "420a" topics to rag on them to increase your epeen?

Regardless. I guess it depends what you define as "slow" or fast". As for 250whp (n/a) that should be 12's considering 218 = 13.194, consider that bench racing all you want, but I feel safe in an assumption that 32whp in N/a form will net 2 tenths of a second... but whatever this by far off topic and as much as I would love to troll you it isn't allowed on this site.

 

[RadDsm]

Does contributing nothing at all to a thread make you feel better? Are you one of the many asshats who sit there and search "420a" topics to rag on them to increase you epeen?

Regardless. I guess it depends what you define as "slow" or fast". As for 250whp (n/a) that should be 12's considering 218 13.194, consider that bench racing all you want, but i feel safe in an assumption that 32whp in Na form will net 2 tenths of a second... but whatever this by far off topic and as much as I would love to troll you it isn't allowed on this site

The thread shows up in the new posts, thanks.

Could a 250whp n/a break 12's? Sure. I never said it couldn't. There are a lot more variables to running a 12 than just horsepower. I'm not going to argue about it with you, there is no point. This kid isn't going to build a 250whp 420a.

I'm done posting in this thread because it's gone way off track, I hope you are also big enough to stop the bickering.
(no disrespect intended)

 

[Fotowntalon]

Well because you (as well as me) wish to stop bickering I will honor that and leave you with another agreeance. HP alone is not the only thing to lower ET's like you said (although it can make as a good substitute). Such things as about every drive train component, tires, shifting, weather and hell one of the most important things, seat time all effect it. Proof of this is why DSM-Zero is the highest HP 420a, yet not the quickest, I dont even think he has broke into the 10s yet (not 100% sure on that last part).

I also did notice you did contribute to the thread earlier, I was mainly Raging after I read richard33's post and just started quoting people, which is one of the reasons I lashed out, so I apologize to you for that.

 

[tripph90]

i would boost it