How Do I Increase Low-End Power With All Motor Upgrades?

[bo0st]

How Do I Increase Low-End Power With All Motor Upgrades? I read if I get some cams stage 2 I'll have more top end but the lower end will be a little reduced.

I want more low end power than anything, I want to keep all motor for a while so please suggest what I need. I already have the basics of course, cold air unorthodox pulley, headers w/ full exhaust, MSD ignition + wires & NGK plugs

The best gains I saw from my n/a upgrades were from the pulley and MSD so far.

If I get cams are there ones that work in the low end?? I want to be a N/A beast.

 

[bryanwheat]

To make n/a power you are going to have to turn higher rpm's and make the power in the higher rpm's. If you are looking for more torque than i would recommend stroking the engine.

 

[GDNF2ET]

What did you do to the exhaust ? I know going too big, NA, will hurt low end..
K&N filter away from the engine bay heat..Adjustable cam gears..Different throttlebody...

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Get it supercharged then you will have plenty of lower end

 

[jayson427]

If you want a n/a beast your not going to make it on the low end for sure. My power range is above 3500 and if you drive at WOT your rpms won't even go down past 4k so like bryanwheat said you want to turn power in the higher rpms. If you check out my set up it will give you an idea but I'm still in the tuning stage. I have a video up too check it out and you will see what im talking about.

 

[bo0st]

To make n/a power you are going to have to turn higher rpm's and make the power in the higher rpm's. If you are looking for more torque than i would recommend stroking the engine.

Thanks for the advice. Could I stroke it out to be a 2.2L and get some more power that way?

What did you do to the exhaust ? I know going too big, NA, will hurt low end..
K&N filter away from the engine bay heat..Adjustable cam gears..Different throttlebody...

Exhaust is stock 2.25" I believe I just added Megan racing headers and took off the cat to make it a little free flowing. It helped a little. Where do I find some adjustable cam gears that work for the 420a?

Get it supercharged then you will have plenty of lower end

Is there a supercharger kit for the Eclipse 420a?

If you want a n/a beast your not going to make it on the low end for sure. My power range is above 3500 and if you drive at WOT your rpms won't even go down past 4k so like bryanwheat said you want to turn power in the higher rpms. If you check out my set up it will give you an idea but I'm still in the tuning stage. I have a video up too check it out and you will see what im talking about.

I saw your video. My car pulls about the same. I noticed you got the UDP pulley and a bigger throttle body nice job on it

 

[jayson427]

I was driving in 110 degree weather in the video that was a weak pull for me. Its way faster in cooler weather. I wouldnt recommend a supercharger unless you have your motor built up internally. Turbocharger is the way to go imo. cam gears won't give you any more power without upgraded camshafts. I would get aem cam gears since I had timing mark issues with obx and so have other people. Im surprised your running nitrous on a stock motor tho.

 

[Gruff511]

You could probably free up some lower end torque if you lighten up the weight at the crank, like an UDP lightweight flywheel. Also you can get some added power with a 2.5" catback with a stock GST Axle-Back(stock gst muffler will help keep some lower end power)
BUT if you want power go with a turbo.

 

[BK85]

brianwheat has the best idea for more low end power or torque. Stroking it is probably the best answer.

If your not going to turbo than maybe some Long Rods over bore and higher compression pistons. I think you could go to 10.5 compression and still do a small turbo for a little high end kick. Or just do the 2.4 cloud car swap.

BK85

 

[jrohner]

More compression and 2.4L

 

[bo0st]

I have a small t3 .48 ar turbo i plan on putting on in some time but for now would you recommend some compression pistons that are good for N/A and soon turbo?

 

[jayson427]

Do you plan on doing a full rebuild or what? How many miles are on your car?

 

[Fotowntalon]

Get a 4-2-1 header, the 4-1 is nice for higher hp, but you are looking for mid to low end tq, and actually probably sacrificed some with a Megan 4-1. Supercharger would give the best low end, but there is no kit for it, and will take a lot of work and research. Stroking will net you more low end torque, either the 2.2 stroke or doing the cloud car 2.4. Even rebuilding to longer rods should give you a little better TQ feel, but I am fairly certain that you cant use long rods in a 2.2 stroker build.

In short if you want a lot of low end power, you shouldn't have gotten a 4banger, which are engines that are fun, and you can rev the hell out of, but are not low end power cars.

 

[Black420RS]

Get a 4-2-1 header, the 4-1 is nice for higher hp, but you are looking for mid to low end tq, and actually probably sacrificed some with a Megan 4-1. Supercharger would give the best low end, but there is no kit for it, and will take a lot of work and research. Stroking will net you more low end torque, either the 2.2 stroke or doing the cloud car 2.4. Even rebuilding to longer rods should give you a little better TQ feel, but I am fairly certain that you cant use long rods in a 2.2 stroker build.

In short if you want a lot of low end power, you shouldn't have gotten a 4banger, which are engines that are fun, and you can rev the hell out of, but are not low end power cars.

+1

 

[bo0st]

Get a 4-2-1 header, the 4-1 is nice for higher hp, but you are looking for mid to low end tq, and actually probably sacrificed some with a Megan 4-1. Supercharger would give the best low end, but there is no kit for it, and will take a lot of work and research. Stroking will net you more low end torque, either the 2.2 stroke or doing the cloud car 2.4. Even rebuilding to longer rods should give you a little better TQ feel, but I am fairly certain that you cant use long rods in a 2.2 stroker build.

In short if you want a lot of low end power, you shouldn't have gotten a 4banger, which are engines that are fun, and you can rev the hell out of, but are not low end power cars.

I got the 4-1 right now I don't think I want the 2hp gain from the 4-2-1 I am looking for something more productive to say the least.

Do you plan on doing a full rebuild or what? How many miles are on your car?

Yeah full re-build is a plan, 143k miles

 

[jayson427]

I got the 4-1 right now I don't think I want the 2hp gain from the 4-2-1 I am looking for something more productive to say the least.

fotown was telling you what you asked for. you wanted more low end and with a 4-2-1 you get more low end power compared to a 4-1 which is more top end power.


Yeah full re-build is a plan, 143k miles

if your doing a full rebuild you need to figure out what your goal is and what you plan on doing with a budget. you either need to build a turbo motor or a n/a motor, you cant really have both and aspect massive gains. you can put higher compression pistions and put a turbo on it but then you cant run much boost and you need a way of tuning which isnt all that cheap. if you do lower compression you can run higher boost but you still need to tune the motor and figure out everything else that goes along with it. either way your going to spend alot of money unless money is not an issue. i have been building my car for almost 3 years and im still not done with everything i want.

 

[Fotowntalon]

I got the 4-1 right now I don't think I want the 2hp gain from the 4-2-1 I am looking for something more productive to say the least.

You do understand there is more to cars than adding HP right? Such as adding torque, and moving numbers around in the power band? I wasn't talking about "adding 2 hp" was talking about giving yourself more torque and giving you end power as opposed to high end power.

 

[dr1665]

Best piece of advice in this thread so far:

you need to figure out what your goal is and what you plan on doing with a budget

Be honest with yourself, too. Don't fall victim to the groupthink that's been slowly chipping away at the reputation built by the OGs twenty years ago. Used to be DSMers would figure things out, make a few calculated adjustments, and run 10s on mostly stock cars. Today, it seems like every swinging d*ck needs a built engine, dogbox, and heavy diesel turbo to run low 12s or show off on the dyno a couple times a year. LAME.

Ask yourself how you want to play with you car (race it) and how often you want to do that.
Ask yourself how you use the car most often and what would it would take to make it as much fun as possible under those circumstances.

Here are some ideas (from someone who's been around the block)...

The Delicious Daily Driver
Take one 2GNT, fresh maintenance up to and including rings/bearings, add one Evo III 16G, small FMIC, and 3" exhaust. Mix with MSnS, serve on a bed of KYB adjustables, Eibach Pro-kits, and tasteful 17's wrapped in quality rubber. If budget allows (and for added kick), invest in forged pistons - JE used to make a nice 8.8:1. Serves: 2

All Motor Magic
Start with one 2.4L 420A, stuff with 10.5:1CR pistons, top with Dodge Neon head, garnished with Indy intake manifold and legitimate long tube header, and sprinkle with MSnS. Pairs well with mild cams (or custom cams somewhere between I/II) and measured cam gear adjustment. Serves: 2

The Slayer Model
2.4L, destroked, 10:1+CR, rotated 90-degrees, mated to RWD gearbox of choice and Toyota rear end for inexpensive gearing options. Drop a frankenhead on that thing with mixed sized valves, bowl work, Somender-Singh grooves, texturized intake ports. Stuff the head with cams to taste. Park an Eaton M92 blower on top of a plenum filled with velocity-stacked ITBs that's all fed by something bulletproof like a 20G. Again, MSnS to taste. Serves: all

Just depends on how you feel like playing it.

 

[bo0st]

is MsNS hard to program? I mean will i blow my engine if i dont do it right?

 

[2gmummy]

Honestly if you want low end power you need torque. The best way I can think is high compression and more displacement. Who ever said cam gears won't get you power wasn't fully correct it won't get you power as much as unlock more power and adjust it to where you need/want it. Since you're doing a rebuild I'd say 2.4l 10-11.5:1 comp stock exhaust and intake mani upgrade fuel system to run e85 if you can and adjustable cam gear. The lightweight rotational part will make you rev faster but lose torque and you won't be able to coast as much and revs drop faster as well, so pros and cons there. The stock exhaust and mani will also help keep torque although it won't make power. Most ways to keep torque lose power so you'll have to balance it out how you see fit.

 

[dr1665]

is MsNS hard to program? I mean will i blow my engine if i dont do it right?

Hard to program? I'd say no. Haven't done it, personally. I know it seems daunting, though, because the install is relatively complicated, and the car is un-driveable until you get it right. If you can install software on your computer or root a cell phone or burn a CD, you can figure it out.

And yes, you can blow your engine if you mess up, but this sort of mod separates the men from the boys. Learning to tune is just like learning to build a motor.

 

[necrotopsy]

Best piece of advice in this thread so far:

The Delicious Daily Driver
Take one 2GNT, fresh maintenance up to and including rings/bearings, add one Evo III 16G, small FMIC, and 3" exhaust. Mix with MSnS, serve on a bed of KYB adjustables, Eibach Pro-kits, and tasteful 17's wrapped in quality rubber. If budget allows (and for added kick), invest in forged pistons - JE used to make a nice 8.8:1. Serves: 2

All Motor Magic
Start with one 2.4L 420A, stuff with 10.5:1CR pistons, top with Dodge Neon head, garnished with Indy intake manifold and legitimate long tube header, and sprinkle with MSnS. Pairs well with mild cams (or custom cams somewhere between I/II) and measured cam gear adjustment. Serves: 2

The Slayer Model
2.4L, destroked, 10:1+CR, rotated 90-degrees, mated to RWD gearbox of choice and Toyota rear end for inexpensive gearing options. Drop a frankenhead on that thing with mixed sized valves, bowl work, Somender-Singh grooves, texturized intake ports. Stuff the head with cams to taste. Park an Eaton M92 blower on top of a plenum filled with velocity-stacked ITBs that's all fed by something bulletproof like a 20G. Again, MSnS to taste. Serves: all

Delicious daily:
evo 16g doesn't fit on any manifolds for the 420a, so might want to change that up to include a custom manifold with a mitsu flange, or change the turbo that's something t3. and also not just for "added kick" also "added reliability" forged pistons/rods

All motor:
the 2.4 isn't a 420a. it's an entirely different engine. and Neon head? wtf for? only reason i could come up with would be for ITB's facing forward. Neon head is the same as the 420a just in reverse (intake up front, exhaust by firewall)

The Slayer Model:
no one in their right mind would do this, this is just comical. If you're going to go through all the work of rwd swap and all that fabrication, drop the 420a as an engine platform. a true slayer would be to drop a completely built big v8 in it, and tub the rear + wide slicks.
but again, how often do you see that? While funny, it's useless advice.

 

[dr1665]

It's gonna be like that, is it? Fine.

Delicious daily:
evo 16g doesn't fit on any manifolds for the 420a, so might want to change that up to include a custom manifold with a mitsu flange, or change the turbo that's something t3. and also not just for "added kick" also "added reliability" forged pistons/rods

Evo III 16G was suggested for better response, room to grow, and cachet. You want to run it on a 420A you - ! - get a manifold built for it. Don't want to invest in a little fabrication that sets your car apart from the crowd? Fine. Find something that will fit an Ebay/shelf manifold that's somewhat close to the E316G. Your project. Your budget. You decide where you compromise.

Stock pistons are fine. Here's a novel idea - be responsible for your actions. Stock 420A is perfectly capable of handling 7psi on the HRC S16G, it will handle similar boost from a smaller turbo for years.

"Added kick" was a nod to spicing up a recipe by adding more heat, in which case those who wanted a fun daily driver with room to grow (and with a budget allowing them to start that growth sooner) could do so.

And, before you point out I should have also mentioned forged rods, I've seen plenty of turbocharged 420As lose ring lands from too much boost on stock internals, but I can't say I've ever heard of anyone bending rods before the hypereutectic pistons fail. Again, if budget allows, go for it. If not, assume the responsibility of finding out exactly where the weak links are.

Daily driver should compromise on top end in favor of response and reliability. Evo III 16g is rated to less than 400hp. Would a forged piston/stock rod 420A combo hold up? I suspect someone not looking to build a 600whp "race car" to drive to school and work might consider it a worthwhile challenge.

All motor:
the 2.4 isn't a 420a. it's an entirely different engine. and Neon head? wtf for? only reason i could come up with would be for ITB's facing forward. Neon head is the same as the 420a just in reverse (intake up front, exhaust by firewall

And a Galant VR4 isn't a DSM. Really? Semantics?

It's based on the 420A, just as the 4G64 is based on the 4G63 (Sirius engine family). You're not going to bolt up a 4G64. You're not going to go with an old GM Quad-4. It's a 2GNT. And given all the advice above from 4G63 owners parroting the usual turbo-centric advice, I thought it was worth clarifying I did not mean 4G64. (For the record, it's good to see 4G63 guys trying to help 2GNTers instead of mocking them.)

Neon head allows access to a greater (read: any) selection of legitimate long tube headers, which return proven gains double and even triple that of the conventional 420A headers on the market. There's also the multi-piece Indy intake manifold, which is better than any of the ridiculous, coffee-can-with-runners IMs offered for the 420A. Combined with intelligent headwork, valve/cam selection, and tuning, it would be a solid all motor setup you could live with daily, as anyone who's seen Mark's car in person will tell you - that ain't a daily driver.

The Slayer Model:
no one in their right mind would do this, this is just comical. If you're going to go through all the work of rwd swap and all that fabrication, drop the 420a as an engine platform. a true slayer would be to drop a completely built big v8 in it, and tub the rear + wide slicks.
but again, how often do you see that? While funny, it's useless advice.

No one in their right mind would dump thousands of dollars into 20 year old "imports" with a street value less than US$5000, but there are dozens of active DSM communities all over the web dedicated to just that.

I see you have/had an Avenger. You're going to tell me doing something that isn't more mainstream, thoughtless, cookie-cutter BS is stupid and no one in his right mind would do it? Et to, Brute?

Clearly, you have succumbed to the "because drag racing" mindset so blindly rampant in the DSM community. Tubbed. Slicks. Because I want to dump a metric sh*t-ton of cash into a 2GNT so I can get 30 seconds of seat time on a Friday night at the (yawn) drag strip. Pass the sh*t domestic beer and Costco nachos. Git-r-done! DERP DERP DERP!

If that's your thing, that's your thing, but performance is NOT LIMITED to gutted pieces of sh*t that just go fast in a straight line. There is the spirit of the platform. There is something that sets you apart from every other cookie cutter DSM. There is something that demonstrates a dedication to understand performance theory so your reasons WHY are more than that of the mouth-breathing sycophant - "So I can run 30psi. I want 600whp. I owe you a 10-second car." There is something that makes it clear to every true gearhead you meet that you're not content to just buy shiny sh*t out of a catalog like everyone else and can figure things out for yourself.

Kevin Jewer doesn't run a V8. Neither does Scott Glassbrook. I guess it's okay to build a US$50,000 RWD DSM if you stick with the 4G63? "All of that fabrication." Pffft. It's an engine build, and there's plenty of insights and conceptual information on Project Zero G to help anyone come up with a plan of attack for such a project. I know a guy who made a 7th Gen Galant VR4 out of junkyard cars and parts (the chassis was a parts car) and a mig welder. You won't find it parked on mirrors in a parking lot with forged wheels and stickers all over it, but you won't find it in your rearview mirror, either.

The DSM (and, to growing extent, the Evo community) has had far too much cookie-cutter "tuning" in recent years. It's a commoditized race to the bottom where far too many people are over-building, over-spending, and under-performing. If you need someone to provide an itemized build of materials and a flowchart to walk you through every build-related question you will need to answer at each step of the process, you shouldn't be playing with cars.

And if you consider commentary suggesting people think for themselves and maybe give some thought to doing something other than thoughtlessly buying all the same sh*t everyone else is buying is bad advice, maybe you should rethink offering any yourself.

This community was built on people doing what others told them couldn't be done, with parts that didn't exist, in ways that shouldn't have worked. It was BUILT, NOT BOUGHT, by people who read technical articles until their eyes bled and put everything on the line to try what they saw done on other platforms. There were no safe bets. There were no cheap, Chinese knockoffs on Ebay. There was only hard work, trial and error, and an openness to wild ass ideas out of left field.

THAT is what it means to be a DSMer. That is what going fast with class is all about. F*ck all.

 

[Fotowntalon]

If you need someone to provide an itemized build of materials and a flowchart to walk you through every build-related question you will need to answer at each step of the process, you shouldn't be playing with cars.

Driggs, while I enjoyed a lot of what you said (especially the part about doing what others said couldn't be done). I just want you to know, the above thing I quoted, I am stealing and adding to my signature.

 

[gprix1]

How do I get back these 5 minutes