GT35r ok for road race/autox or should I get something smaller?

[jamesfoster]

Yeah I've been trying to get new brakes for a while, I WILL have better brakes before I hit a road course. and I DO have pretty much every other supporting run.

 

[Ludachris]

Brake ducts, brake ducts, brake ducts . . . My GT30r is too much for twisty courses on GSX brakes and race pads. I have to REALLY concentrate on compressing my braking zones to stay off the brakes as much as possible. I'm hoping to get some brake ducts fabbed up in the off-season to see how much that helps out next year.

But yes- otherwise a bigger brake kit would most definitely help stand up to the heat punishment.

Put a call in to Todd at TCE (on our vendor list) when you're ready for some brake kit options. He's got several to choose from. It's one of the best upgrades I've done to my car - funny how most people in the DSM world get excited about turbos and I get excited about brakes

If I could find a good way to fun brake ducting on a 1G I'd be ecstatic. It's very difficult.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Put a call in to Todd at TCE (on our vendor list) when you're ready for some brake kit options. He's got several to choose from. It's one of the best upgrades I've done to my car - funny how most people in the DSM world get excited about turbos and I get excited about brakes

If I could find a good way to fun brake ducting on a 1G I'd be ecstatic. It's very difficult.

When you go with tubular, or maybe even machined control arms, you'll have a lot more room.

For stock, a Disposable setup like GreenGSX runs works pretty well. You have to figure that eventually they'll get crushed anyway, so why run expensive stuff when it takes 15 minutes and 10$ worth of material to throw them on at the track.

 

[tsunari]

Put a call in to Todd at TCE (on our vendor list) when you're ready for some brake kit options. He's got several to choose from. It's one of the best upgrades I've done to my car - funny how most people in the DSM world get excited about turbos and I get excited about brakes

If I could find a good way to fun brake ducting on a 1G I'd be ecstatic. It's very difficult.

I'll definitely do that . . . and when I get ducts figured out, I'll be sure to ping you with whatever it was I came up with

 

[schemauer]

As far as intake temps, you'll want to run lower boost to help reliability and manage intake temps. 15 psi on a 16g is all you'll need.

It's kind of ass-backwards to be debating fancy manifolds and big turbos when the car still has the stock brakes. Priorities should be brakes, a stiff cage, safety equipment, suspension, wheels and tires. Safety wire everything on the car, build for reliability, not ultimate HP. You'll have a lot more fun than running a 450 HP car that is constantly breaking something.

You'll pass many more cars under braking than you ever will by pulling them on the straights.

 

[Zmann42087]

If it was just straight autox, I would get a BB 50 trim at MOST and run only 16-18psi through it.

Even if it was ball-bearing, a 50-trim is way too big for autocross. At the most you want a 16g, but a T-28 is really ideal. Thats why guys who were really competitive like Jtoby and Dennis Grant stuck with the FP Big-28 for their cars.

 

[gixxerdrew]

I now have 500ft/lbs at 4500rpms on my 35R.

 

[Ludachris]

I now have 500ft/lbs at 4500rpms on my 35R.

That's really good, but still not great for most road courses in the US, except for maybe Road America. It'll be fun for the straights but you'll have to work harder than someone with a smaller turbo trying to keep the spool up coming out of the turns.

Again, a 35R isn't bad, it's just not ideal and it's more difficult to be competitive with than a smaller turbo. If you don't care about being competitive, then it doesn't really matter - a 42R can be fun at that point.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Even if it was ball-bearing, a 50-trim is way too big for autocross. At the most you want a 16g, but a T-28 is really ideal. Thats why guys who were really competitive like Jtoby and Dennis Grant stuck with the FP Big-28 for their cars.

I dont know what I was saying. You are right. Must have had a brain fart

 

[gixxerdrew]

That's really good, but still not great for most road courses in the US, except for maybe Road America. It'll be fun for the straights but you'll have to work harder than someone with a smaller turbo trying to keep the spool up coming out of the turns.

Again, a 35R isn't bad, it's just not ideal and it's more difficult to be competitive with than a smaller turbo. If you don't care about being competitive, then it doesn't really matter - a 42R can be fun at that point.

With 100% due respect given, I disagree. Both of our time attack cars have been competitive (in the top 3) with power curves where ~4500 the RPM for high qty of torque. We're in the top 3 and won 1st overall in the redline time attack series this year (series isnt over but enough points were accumulated). I know a couple very competitive evos with 2.4/35R combos. And keep in mind my torque/power is on a longer runner manifold and would be even less on a short/cast type. I dont want to be diasgreeable and everyones mileage may vary, I just disagree is all. Maybe its the west coast tracks we run? Buttonwillow, Willow Springs, Laguna Seca, Cal Speedway, etc?

 

[Ludachris]

Maybe on a 2.4L it's not as much of a disadvantage as on a 2.0 or 2.3, but I guess it also depends on which class and series you're running in. The 35R tends to mask the deficiencies of the car since it helps with the straightline speed, and it might work for some (like gixxerdrew in this case), mostly those who have a true fully built race car. But for the majority, a smaller turbo will be a better choice if they want to compete.

And again, comparing an Evo to a DSM in terms of turbo choice is a bit of a stretch. Stock Evos tend to handle better than many modified DSMs, so it's tough to compare them.

In any event, DSMers will always be drawn to the bigger turbos, even if it's at the expense of being competitive in road racing. I'm just hoping I can get a few to see that it's easier, cheaper, and a lot less stressful on the car using a smaller turbo.

With 100% due respect given, I disagree. Both of our time attack cars have been competitive (in the top 3) with power curves where ~4500 the RPM for high qty of torque. We're in the top 3 and won 1st overall in the redline time attack series this year (series isnt over but enough points were accumulated). I know a couple very competitive evos with 2.4/35R combos. And keep in mind my torque/power is on a longer runner manifold and would be even less on a short/cast type. I dont want to be diasgreeable and everyones mileage may vary, I just disagree is all. Maybe its the west coast tracks we run? Buttonwillow, Willow Springs, Laguna Seca, Cal Speedway, etc?

 

[gixxerdrew]

Maybe on a 2.4L it's not as much of a disadvantage as on a 2.0 or 2.3, but I guess it also depends on which class and series you're running in. The 35R tends to mask the deficiencies of the car since it helps with the straightline speed, and it might work for some (like gixxerdrew in this case), mostly those who have a true fully built race car. But for the majority, a smaller turbo will be a better choice if they want to compete.

And again, comparing an Evo to a DSM in terms of turbo choice is a bit of a stretch. Stock Evos tend to handle better than many modified DSMs, so it's tough to compare them.

In any event, DSMers will always be drawn to the bigger turbos, even if it's at the expense of being competitive in road racing. I'm just hoping I can get a few to see that it's easier, cheaper, and a lot less stressful on the car using a smaller turbo.

Good points. I was only thinking in terms of race cars, purpose built for road course. Thanks for keeping me in check Also the power that the 35R is capable of is truly excessive for any kind of amateur club racer level of car. It's excessive for a all out road course car and cooling is a serious problem on DSMs at 400whp let alone 700.

 

[cait sith]

It sounds like you may be past the point of no return with that turbo, but I'd suggest going smaller if possible. Big boost on the track leads to cooling issues, lack of reliability, the need for bigger brakes, bigger wheel/tire combination, etc.. Things that take the fun out of the whole experience.

That 16g is a perfect start. I'd build the car around that setup first until it is dead reliable before I'd mess with a monster turbo. A light car that is properly set up will be very fast on a 16g.

I had a "small" 16g on my '95 GSX that I ran track days with for many years. I now have an bery close to stock turbo on the '93 FWD Archer car that I use for track days. Stock downpipe, side mount.... At 14 psi it makes about 230 hp at the wheels. The car is always faster then most of the cars in the more advanced run groups - because it is light and the suspension is set up properly. The best thing about it is I'm not constantly fixing something. Come off the track and park it until the next session. You don't need big hp. The big hp EVO's are usually shop cars with unlimited time and pocketbook thrown at them. You can go that route; if you have the time and/or the pocketbook.

I'm just going to quote this one more time (Hey guys, it's been a while) until DSM guys finally figure out it's not so much how much horsepower you have but how much you can TURN. These cars are great turners, it's just that people don't spend the time or effort enough!

Tallini kept away from a Porsche Cup car in his little dinky 16G powered car.

 

[338vr4]

Hrm this is makeing me want to stay with my EVO III 16g even more... I was thinking about steping up to a Holset HX35 run low boost and call it a day for the turbo. Agian this is a street car full interior Galant pig . I only run HPDE events and club event so I'm out there to have fun, I just want something thats going to be fun on the street and Buttonwillow and Thunderhill, and have the capability to pull in a few cars.
But the Galants far away from being really competitive in anything.

 

[schemauer]

Gixxer - I understand where you're coming from. I've seen the AMS time attack car at two events I've been at and it's some great work. But as I mentioned in a prior post, those type of cars are generally born of lots of shop time and a big checkbook. What is the total build cost for your time attack car? What additional cost would there have been had the labor not been essentially free? (I assume it was built on shop time.) I'd hazard to guess that my track car has less into it than 1/2 of what your engine cost is.

I still stand by my original suggestions to not focus so much on power, but instead braking and handling (and driver education and practice). A stock engine with a 16g at 15 psi is sufficient. Spend the money on proper suspension setup and braking.

I will use the example of the Archer Talon FWD that I use as a track car. 240hp at the wheels, 15 psi, stock downpipe, stock engine, stock ECU with VPC/AFC tuning. Full Eibach/Bilstein coil-over suspension. Full competition cage with everything that is not absolutely necessary removed form the car to save weight. Brakes are actually the stock dual piston setup with Hawk pads and adjustable proportioning. Stock radiator with one stock fan, upgrade sidemount intercooler.

The car will run all day with the fastest "Group 1" track day cars and is rock solid. No cooling issues, no braking issues. That to me is fun. Breaking things, overheating etc is not. Some things to consider for those considering open track events.

 

[gixxerdrew]

its really tough to say cost because race cars are so iterative, you dont sit down and build it, you built it rebuild it revise it, rebuild it pioneer something rev 1, rev 2, rev 3 it finally works, etc. It's more like a cost per year of competition which I would put somewhere in the 25-50k range

 

[talonTSIDriver]

And again, comparing an Evo to a DSM in terms of turbo choice is a bit of a stretch. Stock Evos tend to handle better than many modified DSMs, so it's tough to compare them.

I can vouch for that. My last DSM which had the TCE BBK, full koni/GC setup, sways, and a 300whp powerplant, and some race rubber runs nearly the exact same times that i run now with my stock evo with just an exhaust and a tune.

I will use the example of the Archer Talon FWD that I use as a track car. 240hp at the wheels, 15 psi, stock downpipe, stock engine, stock ECU with VPC/AFC tuning. Full Eibach/Bilstein coil-over suspension. Full competition cage with everything that is not absolutely necessary removed form the car to save weight. Brakes are actually the stock dual piston setup with Hawk pads and adjustable proportioning. Stock radiator with one stock fan, upgrade sidemount intercooler.

The car will run all day with the fastest "Group 1" track day cars and is rock solid. No cooling issues, no braking issues. That to me is fun. Breaking things, overheating etc is not. Some things to consider for those considering open track events.

I was at a RA open track day when that car was there, and holy balls did that thing move! It overtook me in my DSM and a friend in his evo like nothing! That car proves that handling is worth more than power.

 

[schemauer]

Hello Andy - I remember that weekend and seeing you there!

My point about the build cost - including purchase price I have less than $10k in my track car. That even includes a tranny rebuild and LSD addition I did last year. And most of the costs I've had were upgrading the safety equipment when I bought the car...new seat, belts, etc.

Honestly I can't afford to risk much more than that amount on a track car that I could total at any time.

The $50k EVO track cars have their place, and if you can afford that level car then you can have gobs of fun, my checkbook just is not able to play ball on that field!

 

[schemauer]

Andy-

One more thing; just out of curiosity - what kind of HP does your DSM and that EVO make? Just would give an idea of the HP difference that can be "made up" with a lighter, better handling car??

 

[gixxerdrew]

I can vouch for that. My last DSM which had the TCE BBK, full koni/GC setup, sways, and a 300whp powerplant, and some race rubber runs nearly the exact same times that i run now with my stock evo with just an exhaust and a tune.



I was at a RA open track day when that car was there, and holy balls did that thing move! It overtook me in my DSM and a friend in his evo like nothing! That car proves that handling is worth more than power.

Thats not surprising at all. Your evo had better brakes, better chassis, better suspension, better tires, better AWD system and slightly less power.

 

[gixxerdrew]

Hello Andy - I remember that weekend and seeing you there!

My point about the build cost - including purchase price I have less than $10k in my track car. That even includes a tranny rebuild and LSD addition I did last year. And most of the costs I've had were upgrading the safety equipment when I bought the car...new seat, belts, etc.

Honestly I can't afford to risk much more than that amount on a track car that I could total at any time.

The $50k EVO track cars have their place, and if you can afford that level car then you can have gobs of fun, my checkbook just is not able to play ball on that field!

I believe a lot of the EVOs in the time attack field are substantially north of $50k

 

[mitsu-luver]

thats what im doing for my project im planning on running a gt35r and a pwr intercooler and with my mahle pistons it should spool before 4500 and when are u going to be under that rpm while racing?
you shouldnt be?

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Thats not surprising at all. Your evo had better brakes, better chassis, better suspension, better tires, better AWD system and slightly less power.

maybe we should make an EVO vs DSM thread.

My DSM actually had better brakes, suspension, than my evo (at least it should have). And for tires, I actually used the same race rubber for my DSM and evo.

Here, my DSM mod page: DSM Support - Mitsubishi Eclipse - Eagle Talon - Plymouth Laser - DSM Help Guide
My evo page: DSM Support - Mitsubishi Eclipse - Eagle Talon - Plymouth Laser - DSM Help Guide

Andy-

One more thing; just out of curiosity - what kind of HP does your DSM and that EVO make? Just would give an idea of the HP difference that can be "made up" with a lighter, better handling car??

I dont have any hard hp numbers for both, but I do know my DSM had 264whp and that was without meth, at 17psi, and running very rich (10:1 a/f) from a boost leak. I'd say the talon had a good 300whp at its prime. My evo is probably near the same, maybe a bit less than 300.

Also, FYI, to make a track evo, you don’t have to spend anywhere near the 50k mark. 20k will get you a near stock evo VIII and then just buy some coilovers, brake pads, race rubber, and some seat time and you'll be a competitive road-racer.

 

[Ludachris]

thats what im doing for my project im planning on running a gt35r and a pwr intercooler and with my mahle pistons it should spool before 4500 and when are u going to be under that rpm while racing?
you shouldnt be?

No, you shouldn't necessarily be under 4500rpm while on a road course, but you might find out the hard way that keeping a turbo spooled at part throttle through turns isn't always easy. Everyone thinks of it in terms of WOT, when in fact, you're not always at WOT on the track. And you'll need more than a PWR radiator to keep things cool, trust me on that. I wish it where that simple. Do a search for Greg Collier's 2007 race car build to see the extreme measures he was going through in order to flow more air to the radiator. FMIC's cause cooling nightmares. In any event, best of luck with your build.

The DSM community tends to use a drag racer mentality when jumping into road racing and that type of planning rarely works out well. It's funny seeing so many DSMers wanting to run a big turbo on a road course. It's almost ironic. Most DSMers want to do everything on a backyard budget, yet want to use a turbo that will require high costs for the rest of the build in order for it to work right. The question of running a 35R in road racing is almost like a drag racing newbie wanting to run 10's. Can it be done? Sure, as long as you have a lot of money and you have someone building the car that knows what they're doing. Will most who ask be able to do it? Probably not.

When you're doing 10-12 seconds at WOT down the drag strip, that might be okay. But doing it for 20 minute sessions on a road course will make you realize really quick that a big turbo will bring all of your car's weak points into the spot light. If you want to run a 35R on a road race setup, be prepared to spend a lot of money on all of your other systems if you want reliability. High horsepower cars tend to be more expensive in road racing. They break more. A DSM is no different.

 

[tsiboosted]

No, you shouldn't necessarily be under 4500rpm while on a road course, but you might find out the hard way that keeping a turbo spooled at part throttle through turns isn't always easy. Everyone thinks of it in terms of WOT, when in fact, you're not always at WOT on the track. And you'll need more than a PWR radiator to keep things cool, trust me on that. I wish it where that simple. Do a search for Greg Collier's 2007 race car build to see the extreme measures he was going through in order to flow more air to the radiator. FMIC's cause cooling nightmares. In any event, best of luck with your build.

The DSM community tends to use a drag racer mentality when jumping into road racing and that type of planning rarely works out well. It's funny seeing so many DSMers wanting to run a big turbo on a road course. It's almost ironic. Most DSMers want to do everything on a backyard budget, yet want to use a turbo that will require high costs for the rest of the build in order for it to work right. The question of running a 35R in road racing is almost like a drag racing newbie wanting to run 10's. Can it be done? Sure, as long as you have a lot of money and you have someone building the car that knows what they're doing. Will most who ask be able to do it? Probably not.

When you're doing 10-12 seconds at WOT down the drag strip, that might be okay. But doing it for 20 minute sessions on a road course will make you realize really quick that a big turbo will bring all of your car's weak points into the spot light. If you want to run a 35R on a road race setup, be prepared to spend a lot of money on all of your other systems if you want reliability. High horsepower cars tend to be more expensive in road racing. They break more. A DSM is no different.

I want to chime in and agree with 100% of everything Ludachris just posted. Big horsepower cars dont always make the best road racing cars. I see turbo 911's getting passed by Miatas everytime I go to the track. Its not all about the big HP numbers in road racing. Its about being able to be in the throttle more yes, but not always about how much you can put down. Smooth and steady wins the race. Its an old saying but it holds true in road racing. Spend more of your money on suspension and getting your car stiffened up before trying to pur down 400 hp to the wheels.

The cooling thing as Chris stated is and can be an issue with DSMs. Luckily for me (and with Greg's trial and errors) I got to come to a good setup that keeps my temps low on the track for 20 minutes. My coolant temps never get over 185 degrees now. Front mounts also as Chris said do not offer enough air to get to the radiator and will over heat your car very quickly. I know Greg even struggled with coolant temps with his "V" mount intercooler and running 2-3 bottles of Water Wetter.

If you use a turbo such as a 16G (as I do), you can run a nice big sidemount and get plenty of air to it to not heat soak and not risk over heating the car at the same time. I highly recomend Red Line's Water Wetter as well. The 16G for me was the perfect solution for road racing. It spools almost as quick as the old T-25 did, but it has twice the power. I can tell you this from first hand experience. At Road Atlanta, down the back straight away, I was hitting 130 mph+ and keeping a 350Z, turbo 911 and an M3 BMW firmly in my rearview mirror with no problem what so ever. Just do some research on turbos, road racing and ask questions to guys that have been there and done that and I am sure you can come up with a good package for you to run on your car. I am not saying run what I run, what Chris runs, or even what Greg ran. Just do the research take your time and you will get exactlly what you want. Good Luck