FMIC short route vs long route...Personal preference or actual difference??

[AlaskanDsm]

This topic has been beaten to DEATH!! I have spent the last 2-3 hours reading as many of the post as i could find. In the future I hope to be doing some upgrading on my car and I just want to look into the options I have for running the piping on my car. From what I have read...

Long route:
-Cheaper (doesn't require the slim fans and some other minor modifications)
-Retains stock fans (Some of the Larger FMIC don't aways allow for enough cooling on the already smaller stock radiators
-Is longer (*suggested* lag time in spool)
-Still gets you into the 11's and 12's
-Seems to be more common for larger FMIC
-Someone already has a hard UICP (doesn't want to pay for the extra to replace)
-More bends (making pressure have a longer "walk" to the TB)
-Possibly makes BOV louder (more air to circulate?)
-More of a "BOLT-ON" feeling
-Has more chances of boost leaks (longer w/ more couplers and piping)



Short Route
-More expensive and requires some minor modifications
-*bragging rights* (as someone had mentioned for an indifference between)
-Shorter route ( *suggested* faster spool time)
-Seems to be less common Larger FMIC
-Clears the wheel well area (SMIC area can be utilized EX. auto tranny cooler)
-The turbo is as close the the TB as possible (For a more responsive spool and engine)
-Has a cleaner look for you car and engine bay
-BOV seems to make a lot less noise (less air to circulate?)
-A/T transmission coolers need to be moved sometimes because the hot pipe is in the way
-Harder to install on a 1G (not sure about a 2G)
-uses smaller fans on radiators that might already have some issues getting air through the FMIC
-Has much sharper transitions(worse for airflow)




I can't seem to point too many other things out. The only other major thing that popped out was that long route and short route really aren't too much of a difference. DSMlink and AFC, Now you are talking about a big difference.
A lot of people that talked in the threads talked about how you might want the short route in the long run. Or how you bought the 2.5 exhaust and wished you had bought the 3. Another would be about removing the cat and running a straight pipe there. Both aren't necessary but something can slightly increase performance.

Ludachris:
I believe that less piping will always be better than more piping. The shortest distance to the throttle body will always win out. Now, the only way to test this of course is to try both on the same car with the same setup. I doubt that many people have done this. Trying to test two different cars won't tell you anything. There's too many other factors involved, and we all know the golden rule - all cars are different.

So my question stands? Is the the difference routes more personal preference or does it really have enough gains to spend the extra few dollars besides looks and space saving...to get the short route? I'm not asking which is better in your opinion. I already read a lot of that haha. Just if its a personal thing or if there are actual gains equivalent to the extra money spent.

Wow..sorry it was so long.

 

[1992awdlaser]

How is the gm maf treating you ?

No problems with it at all. I only have it to have a gm maf though as I tune with Dsmlink.

 

[JayRolla]

That transistion on the end is actually not that bad. Its pretty smooth. Its still smoother than a j-pipe bend that you would use on a short route kit. If I wanted to cut the kit more and do some welds I could have done more work, but I wanted to see how it performs in this state. Its only 4 bolts to take the bumper off when I want to work it better.

So I dont have a tune but once I do I will let you know when full boost hits. At the 12psi I'm at now I see full boost at around 2800-3000rpms.

 

[Dsm2nr89]

No problems with it at all. I only have it to have a gm maf though as I tune with Dsmlink.

Oh ok that sounds good. I had a gm maf and maf-t when i had my 91 tsi awd and it ran pig rich and didn;t gain any hp. then again the car was auto so the maf-t didnt have the settings to dial in for 390's soi slapped in a set of 1g 450cc and nothing. The maf-t sucked. Good to hear yours is doing good and that you're using the dsmlink. I cant wait to get me one of those

 

[1992awdlaser]

That transistion on the end is actually not that bad. Its pretty smooth. Its still smoother than a j-pipe bend that you would use on a short route kit. If I wanted to cut the kit more and do some welds I could have done more work, but I wanted to see how it performs in this state. Its only 4 bolts to take the bumper off when I want to work it better.

So I dont have a tune but once I do I will let you know when full boost hits. At the 12psi I'm at now I see full boost at around 2800-3000rpms.

I forgot about j-pipes. I don't have one since my 50 trim is a down facing turbo.

 

[blownturbotsi]

The sharp transitions are at the intercooler on a short route. The piping may have smooth bends, but once it enters the endtank, it has to make a 90 degree turn on both sides. I have the SBR short route and the endtanks are angled so that the turn isn't as bad.

As far as the fans, I have one slim fan on the driver's side that I don't even have to use. I have the stock fan on the other side and my operating temps never get up to normal, it's always a bit cooler. Fans aren't a big deal in this arguement.

Now on to short route having smaller cores, again, the one that I have isn't small at all. Once I start using this turbo for what it's made for, I'm probably going to move up to Buschur's new 4in core which is huge, even for long route setups.

 

[1992awdlaser]

I see what your saying about the way the end tanks are made now. I would think the short pipes and less total bends would make up for that though. There would have to be a test to confirm this though so I guess it is just we won't know for sure for awhile unless somebody like ETS makes a post here to confirm.

 

[JayRolla]

Oh ok that sounds good. I had a gm maf and maf-t when i had my 91 tsi awd and it ran pig rich and didn;t gain any hp. then again the car was auto so the maf-t didnt have the settings to dial in for 390's soi slapped in a set of 1g 450cc and nothing. The maf-t sucked. Good to hear yours is doing good and that you're using the dsmlink. I cant wait to get me one of those

You where not tuning it out right or something. The maf-t works great on small to large injectors. I will be running 1000cc injectors a safc, maf-t and e85. I know someone thats run this setup with great success.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Here is a front pic of my long route. Its a little cleaner now but you get the idea. The upper pipe is the same as any other.

Jayrolla my uicp goes long route across the entire fmic like yours does.
Yes its long and isnt "ideal" but something i thought about is that with the hot pipe going across the front bumper like that before it enters the core, it has a little chance to cool off due to frontal winds directly hitting it before it even enters the core.

I forgot about j-pipes. I don't have one since my 50
trim is a down facing turbo.

Punishment-racing sells downwards flowing jpipes that arent too much harsher in bend than the small stock one, and if I were to ever short route my uicp id probably purchase one.

The sharp transitions are at the intercooler on a short route. The piping may have smooth bends, but once it enters the endtank, it has to make a 90 degree turn on both sides. I have the SBR short route and the endtanks are angled so that the turn isn't as bad.

Exactly...
And to me, that New Buschar core looks awsome and very effective but the price doesnt justify it when you can just get better octane fuel or meth/water injection to make up for some of the temp difference.

 

[blownturbotsi]

This would be for my daily driver, so higher octane fuel all of the time wouldn't be cost effective. Now, I've thought of meth injection, but I'm a firm believer in a good tune going a long way. That's why I'm now up to 1000cc injectors so my low, low boost and pump gas woes won't be a big issue anymore.

 

[JayRolla]

This would be for my daily driver, so higher octane fuel all of the time wouldn't be cost effective. Now, I've thought of meth injection, but I'm a firm believer in a good tune going a long way. That's why I'm now up to 1000cc injectors so my low, low boost and pump gas woes won't be a big issue anymore.

If you have e85 in your area you can run incredible fuel at a good price.

 

[2gGSX]

This would be for my daily driver, so higher octane fuel all of the time wouldn't be cost effective. Now, I've thought of meth injection, but I'm a firm believer in a good tune going a long way. That's why I'm now up to 1000cc injectors so my low, low boost and pump gas woes won't be a big issue anymore.

Believe me when I say that you can try dumping all the fuel you want, but running rich won't always make up for lower octane fuel.

Having more injection and lower intake temps (hint hint: water/meth injection or E85) do absolute wonders for your tune.

 

[AlaskanDsm]

Well I think from the answers that showed up on the thread, I think that until its actually done on the same setup with different routes to see if there is any actual difference I would kind of have to say its more of a personal preference as both have some pros and cons. Could anyone else agree with that?

Oh and I really appreciate the responses!!! It helps me out a bunch!!

Also could anyone else point out some of the differences that I don't have on there for anyone else doing a search on the thread for comparisons?

 

[CTP]

Well I think from the answers that showed up on the thread, I think that until its actually done on the same setup with different routes to see if there is any actual difference I would kind of have to say its more of a personal preference as both have some pros and cons. Could anyone else agree with that?

 

[Dsm2nr89]

You where not tuning it out right or something. The maf-t works great on small to large injectors. I will be running 1000cc injectors a safc, maf-t and e85. I know someone thats run this setup with great success.

Actually i left everything on 0 because i remember on the sheet there were no settings to dial in for 390cc injectors.

 

[twack]

I got the long route and i have used it for a couple years now and i really have no complaints.

 

[blownturbotsi]

Believe me when I say that you can try dumping all the fuel you want, but running rich won't always make up for lower octane fuel.

Having more injection and lower intake temps (hint hint: water/meth injection or E85) do absolute wonders for your tune.

I live in the middle of cowtown-nowhere land, e85 will never make it here. I'd be hard pressed to find a constant supply of meth as well. Gotta do with what you got.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I live in the middle of cowtown-nowhere land, e85 will never make it here. I'd be hard pressed to find a constant supply of meth as well. Gotta do with what you got.

Windsheild washer fluid from walmart. Use that in a meth injection kit, that stuff has like 30% meth in it. Not substantial but it still gives you something to work with.

 

[selser420]

Ummmm, not able to get a big core?

https://secure.buschurracing.com/ca...d=236&osCsid=32ea6b44804a900bede1e35b2f4b1a95

I would say that is a big core.

That core looks even bigger in person! I saw that car in person right after the owner got it back from Bushur.....I was like " huge IC!!!" The IC in my avatar is the "little" 24x8x3.5 that was on the car before that one.

I prefer short route. I think it looks cleaner and as mentioned before, less places to have boost leaks. My IC also has "backdoor" inlet/outlet which made the install much easier.

 

[1992awdlaser]

I have there old street fmic kit with short route piping. Once I get the engine built I will be buying just that core then the BIG turbo goes on.

 

[AlaskanDsm]

So for the short route, do most of the people on here have it run from the FMIC to between the exhaust manifold and the radiator And the other side up to the TB? And on the long route... it almost looks like there are more than one route you can take. I have a 1G so if anyone else who has has done either install could point me in the right direction of what route you used and where the route actually runs...I would appreciate it

 

[1992awdlaser]

My short route kit goes to the turbo outlet between the radiator and block. And you can tell where th uicp goes from the pictures.

 

[silver bullit]

Short route is better...

Example every notice how your stock turbo spools quick on a 8 in front mount (small) or side mount, V.S. a 30 in core with 3 in piping.

Now longer piping (a few inches or a foot or 2) wont have a drastic flow difference like the above statement but i think you get the point.

Not to mention shorter route usually will cost less if you plan ahead when you add a power steering cooler, tranny, oil cooler. Not to mention longer route usually involves more couplers piping, etc more potentals for boost leaks.

Though a long route piping for a front drive car might help with lauch if the boost takes a few hundred rpm to reach max boost.

 

[AlaskanDsm]

I'm not arguing that point at all! And of course it makes sense that being the shorter piping would constitute for a shorter spool time but the amount of air pushed through those pipes would fill that extra space in an almost unnoticeable time difference.

My short route kit goes to the turbo outlet between the radiator and block. And you can tell where th uicp goes from the pictures.

ok so how about some of the longe routes? I would think that there are a couple variations...

 

[1992awdlaser]

There are a couple of different long rout variations. I'm not going to comment on any as I have never seen any in person or used one though.

 

[selser420]

So for the short route, do most of the people on here have it run from the FMIC to between the exhaust manifold and the radiator And the other side up to the TB? And on the long route... it almost looks like there are more than one route you can take. I have a 1G so if anyone else who has has done either install could point me in the right direction of what route you used and where the route actually runs...I would appreciate it

Here's a quick pic of my short route set-up.

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