1G First engine rebuild- Looking for input

[Smilinjay]

Let me start off by saying that I'm putting this in the newbie forum because i'm sure similar topics have been covered before. And, well, im a newbie when it comes to building shortblocks.

So I pulled the oil pan off of my 90' tsi awd the other day and discovered about 20 large pieces of bearing material. After pulling the rod and main caps, I found the center main bearing was trashed. So I guess its time for a rebuild.. The car only has just over 100k on it but by the looks of it, the previous owner(s) weren't too kind to it. Perhaps letting it run too low on oil. My power goals are relatively modest as this is predominately a street car, so I would prefer to not buy aftermarket rods and pistons.
Anyway, I want to do this once and do it right. So im going to post a list of what machine work and parts I am going to purchase. Please speak up if you see things missing from my list or if you see parts that are not entirely necessary!

New oem evo 9 pistons and rings (I found a very reasonable deal on a set, and would prefer them over running 2g pistons)
ACL main and rod bearings
ARP rod bolts
ARP main studs
oem composite head gasket
oem timing belt auto tensioner
Felpro shortblock gasket set
Balance shaft eliminator kit

I already have a water pump, gates timing belt, and arp head studs with with only 500 miles on them.

Machine work:
Crank polished
bores honed
pistons machined for 22mm wrist pin
Hot tank the block

The machine work comes to $375 all together, which seems very fair to me. Anyway, pleas lmk if I my list is missing anything.

 

[Spoolingaround]

Check the head for warpage, deck it if need be.

While you've got the block apart, you might want to consider the oil port and oil gallery mod as seen on Jafros YouTube page

 

[RipperXX]

Add a line hone to the list, and the above mod is a nice easy one. Also IF your head has been or needs to be resurfaced to true it up, look into the tear drop mod. You can do it yourself or have a machinist do it. But basically when the head gets resurfaced you restrict oil flow to the cylinder head as it shrinks a chamber on the head where it meets the oil feed from the block.

Kiggley HLA would be a nice addition to, but not needed at all for your goals.

 

[Smilinjay]

Check the head for warpage, deck it if need be.

While you've got the block apart, you might want to consider the oil port and oil gallery mod as seen on Jafros YouTube page

Add a line home to the list, and the above mod is a nice easy one. Also IF your head has been or needs to be resurfaced to true it up, look into the tear drop mod. You can do it yourself or have a machinist do it. But basically when the head gets resurfaced you restrict oil flow to the cylinder head as it shrinks a chamber on the head where it meets the oil feed from the block.

Kiggley HLA would be a nice addition to, but not needed at all for your goals.

Ok thanks guys. The head should be good, I did a headgasket job and swapped to a clean 7 bolt head very recently. And I've been going through and watching all of jafro's videos

 

[BogusSVO]

It looks like you are going to be 400hp or less....

New oem evo 9 pistons and rings (I found a very reasonable deal on a set, and would prefer them over running 2g pistons) <<<<== Why? you do understand you DROP compression in a DSm with them? The Evo pistons are designed to work with the Evo head, 43cc where a DSM head is 47cc

ACL main and rod bearings,<<<== I prefer the King XP rod bearings, and Regular main bearings will be fine in your mild build.

ARP rod bolts <<<< IMHO Not needed in a mild build

ARP main studs<<< here again, Not needed in a stock rod build

oem composite head gasket<<<< The FelPro HG that will come in your FelPro Head Set will work just fine.

oem timing belt auto tensioner <<<< Great!

Felpro shortblock gasket set <<== Just get a Full set or the HS and CS

Balance shaft eliminator kit<<< If the bearings in the block are ok, you can flip them , Make sure it is the grooved stubby shaft.


Now on to the machine work.

Machine work:
Crank polished<<<<< As long as it is in spec, but your #3 may make it where you need to grind.

bores honed<<<< If you run your old pistons fine, But if you go new pistons, may as well go .020 over and start with a true round and straight bore.

pistons machined for 22mm wrist pin<<< As long as the shop is sure they can maintain the proper press fit of the wrist pin.

Hot tank the block<<<< Yep needs done.



I would add,

Deck the block, Most every 4g block I have come across has needed to be milled, most are tilted from the factory.

Check the line bore, mainly due to the damage of #3 main bearing.

Port the front oil galleys.

Remove the balls from the crank to make sure you get the 100k worth of crud out

Weight match the rods and pistons.


Now how about some reading before you lay out your cash....

http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/bogussvo-how-to-links-and-other-info.450429/#post-153125637

 

[boost97gst]

Dale, i had a bad experience with a "cut" crank. It lasted only a few hundred miles. Gentle miles, at that. I had rod knock on my #3 and sure enough, #3 started knocking again pretty fast.
I hear mixed reviews, some say it's fine some say look for an uncut crank or go with aftermarket.
This was quite some time ago and i was able to get a stock uncut crank and have had zero main/rod bearing issues since.

What is your pro opinion on this?

Thanks bud

 

[Smilinjay]

It looks like you are going to be 400hp or less....

New oem evo 9 pistons and rings (I found a very reasonable deal on a set, and would prefer them over running 2g pistons) <<<<== Why? you do understand you DROP compression in a DSm with them? The Evo pistons are designed to work with the Evo head, 43cc where a DSM head is 47cc

ACL main and rod bearings,<<<== I prefer the King XP rod bearings, and Regular main bearings will be fine in your mild build.

ARP rod bolts <<<< IMHO Not needed in a mild build

ARP main studs<<< here again, Not needed in a stock rod build

oem composite head gasket<<<< The FelPro HG that will come in your FelPro Head Set will work just fine.

oem timing belt auto tensioner <<<< Great!

Felpro shortblock gasket set <<== Just get a Full set or the HS and CS

Balance shaft eliminator kit<<< If the bearings in the block are ok, you can flip them , Make sure it is the grooved stubby shaft.


Now on to the machine work.

Machine work:
Crank polished<<<<< As long as it is in spec, but your #3 may make it where you need to grind.

bores honed<<<< If you run your old pistons fine, But if you go new pistons, may as well go .020 over and start with a true round and straight bore.

pistons machined for 22mm wrist pin<<< As long as the shop is sure they can maintain the proper press fit of the wrist pin.

Hot tank the block<<<< Yep needs done.



I would add,

Deck the block, Most every 4g block I have come across has needed to be milled, most are tilted from the factory.

Check the line bore, mainly due to the damage of #3 main bearing.

Port the front oil galleys.

Remove the balls from the crank to make sure you get the 100k worth of crud out

Weight match the rods and pistons.


Now how about some reading before you lay out your cash....

http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/bogussvo-how-to-links-and-other-info.450429/#post-153125637

From what i understand, after compensating for the dsm's larger combustion chamber, the evo 9 pistons would give me a final compression ratio of 8.4:1. Which is still much higher than the 6 bolt's 7.8:1. Imho it seems like a good opportunity to get a forged piston that will still press fit onto my stock rods. Thank you for all of the info. Reason why i am opting for just the lower end gaskets is because I replaced every single gasket on my head 500 miles ago

 

[mitsubishikid]

While the head is off make sure you have the valve stem seals replaced with all viton ones.

 

[BogusSVO]

Dale, i had a bad experience with a "cut" crank. It lasted only a few hundred miles. Gentle miles, at that. I had rod knock on my #3 and sure enough, #3 started knocking again pretty fast.
I hear mixed reviews, some say it's fine some say look for an uncut crank or go with aftermarket.
This was quite some time ago and i was able to get a stock uncut crank and have had zero main/rod bearing issues since.

What is your pro opinion on this?

Thanks bud

I have built many on a cut crank, with out issue.

The reason I think most fail on a cut crank, is simply put, the crank was not clean properly.

This goes back to pulling the oil galley balls from the crank, in the dead segment of the oil galley in the rod throw. Crud gets trapped so add in a soak in a shops cleaning tank, along with crud being loosed up from chemicals and on top of that grit from the crank grinding wheel and the metal flake from the crank grinding procedure. Any of that that works out of oil galley will throw trash in a rod bearing.

From what i understand, after compensating for the dsm's larger combustion chamber, the evo 9 pistons would give me a final compression ratio of 8.4:1. Which is still much higher than the 6 bolt's 7.8:1. Imho it seems like a good opportunity to get a forged piston that will still press fit onto my stock rods. Thank you for all of the info. Reason why i am opting for just the lower end gaskets is because I replaced every single gasket on my head 500 miles ago

Your math is close to mine, I come up with a 8.12 CR, what is a minor increase in CR, but what you give up is any sort of quench in the combustion since the pistons sit about .060 below the deck.

Now if you go forged pistons, and press fit hang them, IMHO thats a waste, you may as well spend the extra cash and get some rods too to hang them on.

Also, since you like the 2g piston set up, may as well get the BC swap rods, 6 bolt big end and 22mm wrist pin hole.


What else was missed, os since you have glitter, add to the build list a new oil cooler sandwich plate, doubtful you will get the metal flake out.

Also the front case/oil pump need to come apart and inspected for damage.

 

[bastarddsm]

I wouldn't worry to much about the quench. I've run factory which has 0 real quench, JE's with the quench setup to be about .040", and JE's with lots of clearance. They all ran just about the same.

 

[Smilinjay]

I have built many on a cut crank, with out issue.

The reason I think most fail on a cut crank, is simply put, the crank was not clean properly.

This goes back to pulling the oil galley balls from the crank, in the dead segment of the oil galley in the rod throw. Crud gets trapped so add in a soak in a shops cleaning tank, along with crud being loosed up from chemicals and on top of that grit from the crank grinding wheel and the metal flake from the crank grinding procedure. Any of that that works out of oil galley will throw trash in a rod bearing.




Your math is close to mine, I come up with a 8.12 CR, what is a minor increase in CR, but what you give up is any sort of quench in the combustion since the pistons sit about .060 below the deck.

Now if you go forged pistons, and press fit hang them, IMHO thats a waste, you may as well spend the extra cash and get some rods too to hang them on.

Also, since you like the 2g piston set up, may as well get the BC swap rods, 6 bolt big end and 22mm wrist pin hole.


What else was missed, os since you have glitter, add to the build list a new oil cooler sandwich plate, doubtful you will get the metal flake out.

Also the front case/oil pump need to come apart and inspected for damage.

My machine shop quoted me $20 per piston to machine the pistons. In total it would cost me ~$300 to run the evo pistons on 6 bolt rods. Dont get me wrong i am not dead set on running evo pistons, and am 100% open to suggestions. I just struggle to see the point of buying forged rods and pistons when my car may never see over 450whp. It may sound insignificant but $300 vs $800 is still quite the difference on parts that may never see their full potential. Just my $.02

As far as the stock oil cooler goes, i ditched it when i did the headgasket job. I agree with the oil pump. Im half tempted to just buy a new one.

 

[BogusSVO]

Im not against the 2g piston swap, matter of fact I am working on 2 stock rod builds.

I am just going to use the NPR 2g pistons

Whats the link for getting the EVO Pistons? The rings alone go for $54 per piston

So unless you found them in a part out, or have in a dealer, I see as too much money for not enough benefit.

Not when a set of 2g pistons and rings can be had for $130ish

$20 per rod to modify the small end is about right, to hone out the wrist pin hole and to narrow the small end to fit in the piston.

 

[Smilinjay]

Im not against the 2g piston swap, matter of fact I am working on 2 stock rod builds.

I am just going to use the NPR 2g pistons

Whats the link for getting the EVO Pistons? The rings alone go for $54 per piston

So unless you found them in a part out, or have in a dealer, I see as too much money for not enough benefit.

Not when a set of 2g pistons and rings can be had for $130ish

$20 per rod to modify the small end is about right, to hone out the wrist pin hole and to narrow the small end to fit in the piston.

I found them in the classifieds on evolution.com. They are brand new with rings installed. He is asking $275. What's your opinion NPR and topline pistons? Are they considered as strong as oem?

 

[dsmBear]

I did the same thing with my mild biild

020 over 6 bolt npr pistons
Stock 1g rods
Acl race bearings
Arp rod bolts
Arp flywheel bolts
Arp headstuds
I had the machine shop also do a full balance job on the whole rotating assembly
Oe headgasket water pump belt etc
Southbend clutch stage 1
I kept balance shaft

 

[BogusSVO]

I found them in the classifieds on evolution.com. They are brand new with rings installed. He is asking $275. What's your opinion NPR and topline pistons? Are they considered as strong as oem?

He is selling at a loss then, I would bet, at that price point they may be worth it.

Hummm My opinion on NPR pistons...... Well, To start... NPR provided the pistons to mitsubishi. Along with a slew of other Asian auto manufactures. BTW NPR also makes the pistons for the Ford 4.6 and 5.4.

So I feel it is safe to say, that yes they are as good as the OE pistons.

TopLine is a "reboxer" they buy parts from others and put them in there box.

EngineTech Is a reboxer also, But I do Know that the EngineTech pistons are NPR same for the rings.

EngineTech bearings are King Bearings.

 

[donniekak]

For all the expense of rod bolts, resizing the big end, honing out the small end for 22mm pins, and buying Evo pistons you may as well go with a simple eagle/wiseco setup, it's a couple hundred bucks more, but you'll have plenty of room to grow. I Know a lot of people do it, but I don't like pushing the stock rods much over 400lb/ft.

 

[Smilinjay]

He is selling at a loss then, I would bet, at that price point they may be worth it.

Hummm My opinion on NPR pistons...... Well, To start... NPR provided the pistons to mitsubishi. Along with a slew of other Asian auto manufactures. BTW NPR also makes the pistons for the Ford 4.6 and 5.4.

So I feel it is safe to say, that yes they are as good as the OE pistons.

TopLine is a "reboxer" they buy parts from others and put them in there box.

EngineTech Is a reboxer also, But I do Know that the EngineTech pistons are NPR same for the rings.

EngineTech bearings are King Bearings.

Interesting, I didn't know npr provided oem pistons.

For all the expense of rod bolts, resizing the big end, honing out the small end for 22mm pins, and buying Evo pistons you may as well go with a simple eagle/wiseco setup, it's a couple hundred bucks more, but you'll have plenty of room to grow. I Know a lot of people do it, but I don't like pushing the stock rods much over 400lb/ft.

Im certainly considering it. Still trying to figure out my options. Can anyone give me an idea of roughly how much the typical rebuild with the eagle/wiseco combo would cost? From what I've seen, roughly 1200 in parts and 3-400 in machine shop labor

 

[mitsubishikid]

some vendors will make you a deal if you buy both rods and pistons in a bundle for example extream psi and maperformance has what you need bundled for around less then $900 for eagle h beam rods and most any forged piston set they have in stock.

 

[RipperXX]

Engine rpm puts way more stress on rods than peak hp production, just sayin.

 

[bastarddsm]

Ripper, maybe in some 4.5" stoke bbc, but not us. We are 4fold more stress from power than rpm

 

[Smilinjay]

So guys I sourced a shortblock locally that was assembled by a very trusted machine shop with eagle/wiseco combo, acl trimetal bearings and arp main studs. I may just pick this block up. Still would want a new oil pump, auto tensioner, ect but this would save me a lot of time and headache with engine assembly. And of course give me some growing room when it comes to power .

 

[whitedsm91]

Some good input on this worth the read! I am running a 2g piston 1g rod combo on my rebuild, been very happy with it. I too agree with donnie, it's better to over build a little bit, then you will have alot of room to grow.
I've learned the hard way ,more times than I care to mention, about running used parts. I would avoid it the best I can. I know not everyone has unlimited budgets, bit used Evo pistons I would avoid.

The price of rings for Evo pistons always killed that option for me. Honestly tho if you are planning on running a little more than stock horsepower, NPR 2g pistons are going to be just fine. Having forged pistons doesn't make it invincible. That's alot of money that can be used on other items.

I would buy every single bolt ARP makes for a 1g. That's just asking for disaster by re using hardware, especially rod bolts. I did the main stud conversion, and ARP rod bolts, cheap insurance.

Doing a balance shaft elimination, I could either way on it. Yes it makes it alot easier to set your timing, but I'm a believer in "they are there for a reason". If you have your block hot tanked, the cleaning is going to destroy those bearings. It's quite a challenge to re install new one's, I ordered .3x extra bearings incase I messed them up during the reinstall. If I was going to do a bs delete, I would use the kit from GSC power, it provides extra support for the oil pump.

I am also running a recut crank. It's been just fine. Other thsn having to reorder .010 oversized bearings. I have great oil pressure, and absolutely zero vibration, even with poly motor mounts. I trusted my local machine shop with all the short block assembly, and was money well spent.

Also any plans on tuning? A good safe dyno tune is going be the best money spent on your rebuild.

 

[Lester B]

Good reading here.

 

[Smilinjay]

Some good input on this worth the read! I am running a 2g piston 1g rod combo on my rebuild, been very happy with it. I too agree with donnie, it's better to over build a little bit, then you will have alot of room to grow.
I've learned the hard way ,more times than I care to mention, about running used parts. I would avoid it the best I can. I know not everyone has unlimited budgets, bit used Evo pistons I would avoid.

The price of rings for Evo pistons always killed that option for me. Honestly tho if you are planning on running a little more than stock horsepower, NPR 2g pistons are going to be just fine. Having forged pistons doesn't make it invincible. That's alot of money that can be used on other items.

I would buy every single bolt ARP makes for a 1g. That's just asking for disaster by re using hardware, especially rod bolts. I did the main stud conversion, and ARP rod bolts, cheap insurance.

Doing a balance shaft elimination, I could either way on it. Yes it makes it alot easier to set your timing, but I'm a believer in "they are there for a reason". If you have your block hot tanked, the cleaning is going to destroy those bearings. It's quite a challenge to re install new one's, I ordered .3x extra bearings incase I messed them up during the reinstall. If I was going to do a bs delete, I would use the kit from GSC power, it provides extra support for the oil pump.

I am also running a recut crank. It's been just fine. Other thsn having to reorder .010 oversized bearings. I have great oil pressure, and absolutely zero vibration, even with poly motor mounts. I trusted my local machine shop with all the short block assembly, and was money well spent.

Also any plans on tuning? A good safe dyno tune is going be the best money spent on your rebuild.

Unfortunately a dyno tune is pretty much out of the question. There is only one awd dyno in my state and I am a little leery of the tuner. I will probably go the e tune route for a solid base map.

Anyways guys I ended up going with wiseco 8.3:1 .020 over pistons and eagle h beams. I did not go the evo piston route for a few reasons. While they would still have been cheaper than the route I went, it wouldn't have been by much. Probably around $150-200 cheaper. I decided I was willing to spend that much for a lot more growing room.

But now I am starting to wonder about balancing my nice new rotating assembly. The machine shop quoted me $325 for balancing. Is it worth it/necessary? Where is material generally removed from? I have seen and heard of people (jafro specifically) balancing cast rods and pistons at home but never forged.

 

[dsmBear]

Unfortunately a dyno tune is pretty much out of the question. There is only one awd dyno in my state and I am a little leery of the tuner. I will probably go the e tune route for a solid base map.

Anyways guys I ended up going with wiseco 8.3:1 .020 over pistons and eagle h beams. I did not go the evo piston route for a few reasons. While they would still have been cheaper than the route I went, it wouldn't have been by much. Probably around $150-200 cheaper. I decided I was willing to spend that much for a lot more growing room.

But now I am starting to wonder about balancing my nice new rotating assembly. The machine shop quoted me $325 for balancing. Is it worth it/necessary? Where is material generally removed from? I have seen and heard of people (jafro specifically) balancing cast rods and pistons at home but never forged.

I would for sure get the whole rotating assembly while your there, for me it's one of the things you do while your there, always