finished 50 trim setup.. big disapointment.. help!

[Brits97TSI]

hey guys, to start off, I did to some searching, but cant find much at all specifically for my
car and prob.. and I'm in a rush!

ok.. starting off with the turbo and supporting mods

garrett t3/t4 50 trim
tial 38mm external wastegate
tubular o2 housing
front mount w/ short route piping
3 inch intake.. MAF still in original place; not relocated
walbro 255 fuel pump
denso 660 cc injectors
B&M FPR
full 2 1/2 inch exhaust no cat (i know thats holding me back a bit but i just need it to run good right now)
got the greddy profec b spec II boost contoller and greddy TT too if that matters

I have the safc II just not hooked up yet.. it's a '97 tsi, stock engine, rebuilt auto tranny and torque converter, w/ shift kit

that's pretty much all the important stuff, there's a whole list in the profile if you wanna check that.

Now the problem .. finally got the car put together and running.. started up perfect after 2 months sitting, idled perfect, then took it for a drive. Ok, pretty much here's what's happening. You give the car gas and there's a pretty good amount of lag (which was expected with this turbo I know) but it just seemed unusually laggy.. jw if there's any way any of that lag could have something to do with a wrong installation or anything like that of any of those mods (or maybe the lack of a 3" exhaust???) The big problem is when you finally get rid of the lag and the turbo's just about to kick in... the wastegate opens up and lets go of all the boost. I have a 7lb spring, but the boost controller's connected so I didn't think the spring mattered if you had a BC to control it. Also the car needs a tune, and the safc is NOT hooked up.. with all those fuel and turbo mods and no control (safc) what will that do? One other question while I'm asking tons , got slimline fans that need to be wired, did some searching here on it but I'm still a little confused.. and is there anyway to wire the fans to always be running or is that unnecessary?

Well sorry that's so long I'm just trying to not leave anything important out... if I did.. ask me bout it.. thanks guys..


*Brittney

 

[weith1111]

I can help out with a couple things:

That FPR is not too good. It only turns pressure up, you need up and down. What is your base fuel pressure at?

The AFC is pretty critical. Right now your car is running SUPER rich. I don't care what turbo you have on there, it's not acting like it's going to. You need to get that together ASAP. I honestly wouldn't worry about anything until you have that straightened out, but I do always recommend:

1. boost leak test (can never hurt to check)
2. check that base timing is at 5* btdc (this can give laggy feelings)
3. check that plugs are gapped properly .028

 

[90blacktsiawd]

So let me get this straight. You put in some 660 cc injectors and have no way of tuning for them? Thats not good. 660's are roughly 40% bigger than stock. That means that at any given time your running that much richer than you should be. That alone will definitely make the car a dog. Why don't you throw your 450's back in for the time being until you get the AFC hooked up and working.

And i agree with the other tips from the guy above me. If your running that rich your going to foul out your plugs with a quickness.

The B&M FPR is garbage and isn't a real FPR. A real one can both turn up and down the fuel pressure. With your 255lph fuel pump your running extremely rich at idle (just like everywhere else but even more so at idle). The 255 will over run the stock FPR with ease. Your also going to have to get a real FPR to take care of that problem.

O and for the love of god don't even think about stepping on it with the car running the way it is now. I'd honestly say don't even drive it until you either get your AFC in and tuned or swap back in the stock injectors for the time being.

 

[Brits97TSI]

Thanks guys.. um I had an aeromotive fpr.. actually I still have it.. because I did research on all that and saw everyone said bad things about the B&M, however I have quite a few friends around here running the B&M with no problems and my dad was convinced it would do fine.. plus it was a much easier installation. So I dunno what to do about that...

With the safc tho we'll start putting that in tonight then I guess.. I knew it'd be running rich without it I just didn't know how rich and how bad it would be.. that's why I posted here

As far as the boost just dumping out the wastegate before it even pulls... I still have no idea about that. Could that possibly be a fault with the boost controller not being hooked up right or something? Because that's my main concern, considering the safc can go on tonight. thanks!


*Brit

 

[weith1111]

I'm not sure how you know it's the wastegate specifically, but if your base timing is off, or you have massive boost leaks, you would see some crazy things happening. Both of which can be confused for all sorts of things from blown motors and turbos to bad gas or faulty wastegates. Whatever you KNOW is broken, fix, then go from there. Get the AFC on and running straight and then check the other things I listed. Post back when done. 90% of your troubles will be gone.

 

[daren_p]

Like the others have said, get that safc hooked up to control those injectors & pitch that b&m pos, it is to small and will not return enough fuel with the 255 pump. Have you checked your base fuel pressure? as it is probably higher then normal, just adding to your problem of being way to rich.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Driving the car around with it dumping that much extra fuel is not a good thing, you might was down the cylinder walls with fuel and kill the motor.

Also I'm sure you just have the profec setup wrong as it is a quirky little thing and takes some time to get working right.

 

[99gst_racer]

Brit - You now have big injectors (which your ECU thinks are still stock), and a big fuel pump, and a junk fuel pressure modifier. You are running pig rich - plain and simple.

With the work you just did, tuning is very critical. Put that aeromotive back on and buy a cheap gauge to put on it. Get that fuel pressure back down where it should be.

Next, I would invest in a Jeff O. chip. It will really help compensate for those large injectors.

Finally, I would install that AFC and get a fine tune with it. It will be much easier to tune with the correct base fuel pressure and a chip to compensate for injector size.

 

[project_tsi]

Brit, I know how you feel. When I did my complete turbo, fuel system, IC, tuning setup originally in a weekend I was disapointed. I went to 650's on a stock ecu w/ just an AFC, and It was in dire need of tuning! I had no experience w/ AFC tuning at the time and my car ran worse than stock, I mean it was slow!, but shit I must have been running about a 7:1 AFR too. Over about a week of driving, I finally tuned in the car and had it running quite good. Its pointless to install all those parts and crank to boost if you have no way to tune it. If you have the cash, I HIGHLY suggest selling that AFC and invest in DSMLink for total control, or at least a eprom ecu and chip that already has injector compesation on it, this way your ecu will know that it has 660's and not stockers, and tuning w/ stock fuel pres. will be eaiser w/ the AFC this way if you decide to go that route.

So hang in there, and get that AFC installed asap and start tuning, and get a chip too!, you will find it sooooo much eaiser w/ a chip, as well as better top end automatically.

 

[90blacktsiawd]

Well everybody so far has given you some good advise here but i don't see anybody backing me up on taking out those 660's till you get some fuel control. If you HAVE to drive the car around while you are getting the bugs worked out turn the boost down as far as you can and put the stock injectors back in. You will still be running pig rich at idle because of your fuel pump, but anything off idle the ecu knows what size injectors you have and you'll be fine for that as a TEMPORARY fix.

The B&M FPR is fine if your just looking to up the fuel pressure. This is because that's all it can do. It can't lower the pressure like you need it to to compensate for that big fuel pump overrunning the stock FPR.

99gstracer mentioned the Keydiver (Jeff O.) chip. Definitely a good investment. I have one in my car. It's compensated for my 650's, has extended fuel and timing maps that go to 50lbs of air /min as well as a slew of other nice features. Definitely talk to Jeff about making you one if/when you get your hands on an Eprom ecu. Jeff has some of the best customer service I've experienced in the dsm market. Just shoot him an email and he'll be more than happy to work out what you do and don't need in your chip. O and i don't think the extended maps are up on his site but if you mention it to him he'll work with you on it.

 

[project_tsi]

If you put the stock 450's back in for now, then you literally need to run only about 5 psi of boost. Even at that boost level, a 50 trim is still flowin a Shitload more air than the stock turbo. I actually did put my 450's back in and I hit fuel cut almost instantly at 8 psi.
If you have the time to put the 450's in, they you have the time to put in the AFC. I mean shit, its only a couple of wires, I installed my AFC in about 20 min.

So, w/ 1st hand experience on a 50trim, 255 pump, AFPR, and 450's, I say DO NOT do it.

 

[Brits97TSI]

ok.. so the main problem was the wastegate, well not actually the wastegate but the boost controller.. dont laugh but it was SUCH a stupid easy fix. One of the hoses on the BC just needed to be moved from one opening (usually open) to the other opening (usually shut) so now that should be fine

I didn't know the safc was that easy of an install.. we haven't got to it yet because we have to wire the fans in.. but then that'll def. go on either later tonight or tom... and no I won't be driving it until then . And unfortunatley projecttsi I don't have the money for DSMlink.. so the safc will have to do for now.. I do have a wideband o2 to tune it along with the safc so I dunno... this whole setup ended up costing me more than I thought it would so I'm not gonna have the money for that for awhile .

90blacktsiawd and 99gstracer, what sucks about the eprom ecu thing is I had one from my last talon (95 tsi) that I wrecked. Sold the car to this kid and didnt take the ecu out (it was my first car a few years ago and I knew pretty much nothing about it) If I can get the ecu back from that kid then I'd really look into getting that keydriver chip.. about how much will it be?


weith1111 I am still gonna do those things you said to do too just incase of boostleaks considering everything was apart and just to tune it up a bit

thanks for everything guys


*Brit

 

[90AWDTalon]

Thanks guys.. um I had an aeromotive fpr.. actually I still have it.. because I did research on all that and saw everyone said bad things about the B&M, however I have quite a few friends around here running the B&M with no problems and my dad was convinced it would do fine.. plus it was a much easier installation. So I dunno what to do about that...

If you still have the aeromotive fpr use it, if not you can still use the B&M it works great if you use it right. As others have said it can only adust the pressure higher. So what you do is set the base fuel pressure just high enough not to over run, when I used one on my car this was around 50 - 52psi. Then you use the formula square root of new fuel pressure diveded by old fuel pressure multiply this by your injector size and use that as the injector size you use to setup your safc. You may run into some timing issues though as the injector size will be over 700cc. When I did this I used an emanage that had timing controls so that wasn't an issue. You may be able to retard the base timing some to compensate.

I eventually switched to a fullspeed throttle fpr, the only difference for me was the aftermarket one made it easier to dial in my chips I started burning. Before messing with eprom chips and just swapping the two fpr's you couldn't tell I switched. Like I said above use the aeromotive if you still have, but if not you can use the B&M.

 

[99gst_racer]

90blacktsiawd and 99gstracer, what sucks about the eprom ecu thing is I had one from my last talon (95 tsi) that I wrecked. Sold the car to this kid and didnt take the ecu out (it was my first car a few years ago and I knew pretty much nothing about it) If I can get the ecu back from that kid then I'd really look into getting that keydriver chip.. about how much will it be?

If you can locate an EPROM, the Keydriver chip will only run you about $125. (it's well worth the money too).

 

[90blacktsiawd]

I definately agree with 99gstracer up here. Definately worth the 125 for the chip and maybe 200 for the ecu if you can find one. It made it so much easier to tune the car when the chip was compensated for the 650's. I was literally good enough for me to plug in the chip drop in the injectors and drive.

And if you plan on getting Dsmlink in the future your gonna have to get a Eprom anyways.

 

[Slippi84]

I just picked up a keydriver chip from my friend with al the goodies. Thing is how close to final tune do you think the keydriver gets you. Like by final tune I mean the tune is obvious the diffrence between people makin like 252hp and the guys makin 350+hp with same boost and setups for the most part. Is the keydriver simply going to be like a stock tune just compensating for the bigger injectors or will it get me within a couple small fine adjustments of makin serious power.

 

[90blacktsiawd]

I just picked up a keydriver chip from my friend with al the goodies. Thing is how close to final tune do you think the keydriver gets you. Like by final tune I mean the tune is obvious the diffrence between people makin like 252hp and the guys makin 350+hp with same boost and setups for the most part. Is the keydriver simply going to be like a stock tune just compensating for the bigger injectors or will it get me within a couple small fine adjustments of makin serious power.

I'm sure it will take more than just a couple small adjustments as everyones tune is different. Now as for the tune being like the stock one with just bigger injectors, well yes and no. Yes because the ecu swill know what size injectors you have and will be compensated for the deatime so you should be able to do what i did and just drop the chip and injectors in and be good enough to drive the car.

One of the good thing about the ecu knowing what injectors are in the car is that you aren't makning the computer think that alot less air is coming in than it really is. If you use some sort of piggyback computer to compensate for your injectors it's basically telling the computer that there is less air coming in than there really is so it in turn gives you less fuel. When the ecu knows the proper injector size it's going to see all the air (less the little tweaks you make) that is coming in and give you timing accordingly. If the ecu thinks less air is coming in then it will give you more timing which isn't necessarily a good thing.

Another thing that i mentioned to Brit that makes it more than a stock ecu loaded for bigger injectors is the extended fuel and timing maps. The stock ecu has 12 fuel and timing maps it runs off of. The highest map being 27 lbs of air/min. Now you can hit that mark on a 14b at around 18 psi or so. So if your having that much or anymore air than that coming in the ecu will automatically stick you on the last mapr with the least aggresive timing and a more conservative fuel tune to make sure the motor doesn't blow up. Now the extended maps, which i personally have, go up to 50lbs/min. So now when your break the 27lbs/min your not going onto the last map. You will get a more aggressive fuel and timing map being on the 8th-9th map than the last one.

Ok last thing i want to mention is that he can change the air fuel ratio that the computer strives to keep. Stock is 9.5:1 which is kind of rich and more on the conservative side which is once again what that factory did for safety precautions. He changed mine to be 10.5:1 or he could do whatever you wanted. This really just makes it so you have to take out less fuel when tuning which again goes back to it's good to have the ecu know the real ammount of air thats coming (or atleast as close as you can get).

Sorry if my spelling sucks the spell checker isn't working.

 

[Slippi84]

Thanks for the info man. But I kinda just wanted to know about how close the keydriver or similar chips' settings came to what in the end would be the tune that you stick with. Like if you have a chip that is set for all that stuff injector compensation the ideal afr for your needs and even how aggressive you want your timing map to be how far off are we talkin from someone makin the kinda power that they should. I know this is kinda hypothetical and very circumstancial but I'l use my setup. I have a 60-1 and all suporting mods. Now don't everyone jump off saying this isn't right that isn't right just hear me out. A 60-1 lets say on 25psi should make ball park 400hp give or take with the correct setup. No wthat's with a good tune and everything being ok like no boost leaks and so forth. Now i know it's hard to say and all but is a chip going to give me like a 250hp tune or a tune that is gona be closer to that 400hp. Now there are a million things that can vary I know but just from hands on experience really how close have your cars come to final number with chip and droppin in bigger injectors.

 

[90blacktsiawd]

I really think that there are too many variables to say. Jeff can burn a chip for just about any setup and with each being different the chip themselves will be written differently. Having a chip like what you are talking about would get you a closer tune than say having a stock chip and just using a piggyback fuel controller. If your going to do it do it right and just get a chip burned for your setup. At 125 a chip that really isn't all that bad and definitely worth the money. Send an email to Jeff at DSMChips and talk with him about it. He's more than willing to work with you to get a chip made for your setup. That IMO is the best option.

 

[hellotbone]

This IMO is a really stupid thread and it all comes down to not following the mod procedure. Plain and simple cut and dried your car is RICH install the AFC and FIX it.

 

[brb1082]

just for your information it would be wise to upgrade pressure spring b/c you should only dbl the psi of what the spring is...i.e 7 pound spring only go to 14 psi no higher. upgrade pressure spring to 14 pound spring. def get afc up and running. hopefully the afc fixes your problem. boost leak testing is your car's best friend alot of little boost leaks will affect car big time...i found out when test leaking my car.

 

[Brits97TSI]

the safc's on but hasn't even started being tuned yet cuz I'm waiting for the kid with the wideband o2 to get that to me.. it looks confusing though so that should be fun . As soon as I'm not so broke anymore I plan on getting the eprom and that chip, and I'll get to changing that spring.. just gotta get it tuned and running first thanks guys!


*Brit

 

[Brits97TSI]

the safc's on but hasn't even started being tuned yet cuz I'm waiting for the kid with the wideband o2 to get that to me.. it looks confusing though so that should be fun . As soon as I'm not so broke anymore I plan on getting the eprom and that chip, and I'll get to changing that spring.. just gotta get it tuned and running first thanks guys!


*Brit

 

[blcknspo0ln]

you don't need a wideband to tune your car from being pig rich during cruising. a wideband is really necessary when tuning your HI's.

use your logger for short/long fuel trims to set your LO's..

then when your buddy comes with his WBo2, tune your HI

 

[MarsaGSX]

What about to use MAF T set up? cost 200usd+ 3 inch MAF 50-75usd.
I read about 500-600HP With ONLY Maf Translator as Tuning tool! very cheap!
next thing you have to make your UICP to fit 3inch GM Maf.This can be fixed-cut out piece of UICP and buy Silicon reducers (Slowboyracing sells 4ply reducers 20 usd for ONE,need two.)
In finally,you pay for MAF T setup around 315usd! = SAFC II !
Benefits: Can make Blow threw!Your spool up will be better!Can tune your fuell!using hot wire Maf not Karman Vortech!
sweet is you don´t need any spend hours with installing SAFC, You just TAP ONE wire!

check

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202671&highlight=Maf+install

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163009&highlight=Maf+install