Finally, a simple and effective boost creep solution

[pickens]

This may or may not go anywhere. I've been doing some research and tinkering around in my lab at work to come up with a simple solution to eliminate all boost creep issues with 16g, 20g, and even 50 trim turbos. Currently, there are several methods used to combat boost creep that have proven successful. However, each method is heavily involved in terms of labor or costs. The three most succesful methods so far for eliminating boost creep are porting the turbine inlet of the turbo, cutting the divider between the wastegate port and turbine exit, or setting up an external wastegate. Usually, porting or cutting the turbine housing to eliminate boost creep will to some degree hurt the overall performance of the turbo. By porting the inlet side to eliminate boost creep you will inherently loose a little on spool-up time. The loss will be very minor if not barely noticeable, but it will be present nevertheless. By cutting the exit divider you will hurt topend performance when the wastegate opens and dumps exhaust into the turbine exit at an angle detetrimental to the exhaust flow causing excessive backpressure. Thus far, the only solution to combat boost creep without sacrificing any performance is to go with an external setup. However, external setups are quite expensive and the cost may not be justified for a smaller 16g style turbo.

In an effort to find a cost effective solution to eliminate boost creep that won't negatively impact the performance of the turbo, I have found a simple yet effective option. It is simple in the fact that any person can install the unit within minutes without taking a single part off the car or turbo. It is effective in the fact that all boost creep will be eliminated in turbos as large as the garret hybrids (aka 50 trims). The unit utilizes the existing internal wastegate to regulate boost pressure. No porting or cutting is involved and therefore the flow paths which were so diligently and deliberately designed by the turbo's engineers will remain untouched to provide maximum performance.

Now, here's the deal. If I could have these pieces manufactured at a low cost, how many people would be willing to order and purchase an easy and effective boost creep fix for under $50. If I get enough interest from you guys I will take this to the next step and have a few made and sent out so people can verify any claims and post testimonials of how there super boost creeping turbo was turned into a rock-steady boost holding turbo.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

You sound like a salesman

I know FP sells 34mm wastegate flappers, which fix boost creep. All you have to do is port out the waste hole a bit. Is this what you have? Your above post didn't really specify what you did to fix it.

 

[DaveSM]

I'm willing to bet that this:

a) Doesn't work

b) Greatly affects either the spoolup or boost pressure

c) Is a scam

 

[pickens]

34 mm flappers do not always fix the problem. Many people have reported that they still have creep issues even with a 34 mm flapper. Bigger flappers require you to remove and perform port work on the turbo. Pretty labor intensive, but realtively cheap. The downside is that 34 mm flappers are none to blow open at higher boost pressures. This negatively impacts performance because your turbo will never be able to reach its full boost potential.

Basically, what the unit I developed does is allow the internal wastegate flapper to open fully. From the factory, the flapper only opens to an angle of roughly 30 degrees. While this will bleed off exhuast pressure, the flapper itself becomes a huge restriction in the flow path. Bigger flapper doors may actually exaggerate this restriction. When the exuast flows through the wastegate hole it slams into the flapper and tries to flow around it. If you disconnect the wastegate actuator arm from the flapper assembly you will notice that you can actually open the flapper door to a full 85 degree angle. With the unit I developed, the flapper door opens to roughly 80 degrees. At this angle, the exhaust flowing through the wastegate hole is not obstructed by the flapper door, thus allowing much, much more flow through the existing hole. The result is boost control comparable to external systems that basically remove the flapper door altogether.

I hope that explains a little more, but yea I guess I do sound like a salesman. I'm just an engineer though that spends far to much personal time using the company laboratories for my hobbies.

 

[ballagsx]

so you are asying that its a waste gate that controlls boost, and eliminates boost creep? i dont see how it would work.

 

[pickens]

Also, I wouldn't try to scam anyone. Let alone on tuners. Look around, I've been reguarly posting here for awhile now. I'm not really trying to sale anything either, even though it does seem that way . More than anything I'm trying to get out a simple and effective fix to a common problem that all us turbo guys can use, and if it so permits make a few bucks before the big vendors take the unit and run with it. Can't really blame me for that one

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

so you are asying that its a waste gate that controlls boost, and eliminates boost creep? i dont see how it would work.

Turbo 101.

pickens, have you actually tested this on your own car? I'm a bit skeptical that this would solve creep issues, but at the same time, it would have to help somewhat. I'd be interested to see a prototype of it, preferably working on your car Post some pics.

 

[pickens]

My mods are in my profile, and I'm also runnning no cat right now. Originally, I could not keep my boost below 19-20 psi for the life of me. Now, the car will hold boost super steady at 15psi. My lil 16g will still spike initially, then settle right back down to the set boost like a turbo should. I don't have any pics that I could show because its just a prototype on my car and looks pretty rough. However, if enough people are interested I will take the time to make a clean production unit.

 

[NitrousBob]

Im voting open source or Vfaq on this one. I agree with the fact that the larger flapper is kinda crappy because of the shrouding of the flapper itself. The air has a hell of a time getting around it. I know you could port it but why when there is other problems. Id like to see a flow bench test of a stock housing, housing w/larger flapper no port, housing with larger flapper and port; and stock flapper with this mod. That way at least there is some data to go by.

 

[Omega]

Sounds interesting, but I have a few questions.

How do you know that the flapper only opens to ~30 with a standard WG? Are you simply applying an external sounce to the WG and measuring? I am sure that with exhaust running through the system the flapper opens more due to the gases forcing the flapper open more.

Honestly, I am interested in trying one out, but I wouldn't do so until I know what I am getting. Unfortunitely that is a double edged sword for the pair of us. You don't want to reveil anything and I am not going to spend $50 on an item I can't see first.

PM me, perhaps you can convince me further.

 

[phatTSi]

I would imagine the the wastegate arm only travels so far limiting how far the flapper door opens therefore the exhaust gases wouldn't open up the flapper even further. I'm assuming he has made something to further extend the wastegate arm to open the flapper door further.

 

[Generation1JeY]

I'm assuming he has made something to further extend the wastegate arm to open the flapper door further.

Thats exactly what hes made.

 

[Omega]

I was thinking more along the lines of a cam type system. It would multiplies the distance that the actuator pushes the flapper out.

 

[pickens]

Well, hopefully somebody in So. California can chime in. I could take mine off and set it up on a local's car who is having creep issues. The more severe the better. Then, they could post a testimonial about the success of eliminating the creep. I understand it is a double-edged sword though.

phaTsi: You are exactly right. I'm not trying to be secretaive about what it does. It took a fair amount of trial and error, calculations, and elbow grease to determine the appropriate forces, angles, and geometry of the unit. But it enables the flapper door to open more using the exisiting actuator arm and wastegate. It is a simple device, that through geometry, pushes the door open to an angle of approximately 80 degrees.

Omega: The spring and diaphram insde the wastegate actuator will only deflect so much when boost pressure is applied. I believe I measured a little less than 1" in the lateral direction. I found this measurement by applying pressure to boost reference port of the actuator.

 

[guitarXgeek]

It sounds like a good idea, and I'd surely be willing to purchase one if you could get a few more tests on other cars with bad creep problems. Right now I'm still on the stock t-2small, so it wouldn't do me much good. However, I'd be willing to buy it for sure when I get my 50trim

See if you can get a few more tests on other cars (like you mentioned) and keep us updated on how it all goes. I'm quite interested in it!

 

[joe77535]

i would very interested i buying the product, if someone else can vouch for it or see it work even on his own car. do a run without it and then one with it, or someone elses car, before and after. something to prove it works, i would buy it. i just want proof first

joe

 

[WHITE GST]

If this system works, i would buy one too, i have real bad boost creep, i ported the turbine housing,flapper area, and o2 housing and that didn't work.

 

[leet]

You know, most people (including myself) are reluctant to give out money for a product that might or might not work.

If you can prove it works, I'm sure people would be less skeptical.

 

[Maglin]

For less than $50 I'll give it a shot. I would imagine by the time you make these my car will be mostly done. 3" turbo back with either a Frank 2 Turbo or a 20G/TDO5 combo. So either way I'll have to hell of a time tring to kept boost sub 20's...

Question. Does this device you came up with attatch to the Wastegate arm? Earier I was thinking if you shortened up the arm you can more the flapper farther and reduce the shrouding it's causing, but then it might be difficult to kept the flapper closed under Boost.

anyways... I'm willing to give it a go. And if you are looking for someeone to maybe help you out and build some I'm sure I can do that as well.

 

[Dallas J]

On my AGP 50-trim the wastegate is the opposite side. With out seeing your product and being able to distinguish weather or not it will work or fit.

BTW, Im up in oregon if you need a test dummy. Im having creep problems to about 21psi, but thats only if I set the boost lower and let it creep. If I set it to 20 psi then itll creep up to 23ish. Around 25psi is where all my creep stops, and this is with a ported o2 and turbine housing.

Hit me up offline. I can help with some testing, and pay for a final product.

-Dallas J

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Adjustable wastegate arms already exist.

 

[Bohrn]

I don't think its an adjustabe waste gate arm as we are used to it anyway. Those just lengthen and shorten.

This changes the basic geometry in such a way as to open the flapper farther.

I as well have given some serious thought to this very idea. I on the other hand, don't have any lab to work with, nor can I do alot of metal work.

I know the vertical exterior arm on the wastegate is too short just to put another hole in it and make it travel farther inside the housing that way. You would need to do some funky stuff with it, ie cams, levers etc.

Hey, show a drawing, or something similar.

 

[pickens]

I decided that I am going to post a vid showing the ease of installation as well as the before and after performance. I have actually redesigned the unit and made it Extremely simple. I mean simple! I am going to try this new unit on my car. I may just go ahead and attempt to VFAQ this. It would sort be like my way of giving back to the DSM community

 

[maximumbob]

That's the spirit I am really curious about this as well because eventually I plan on running a big turbo.

 

[Bohrn]

thats awesome man, go for it