Fastener Torque Values [Merged 3-9] value tightness torques specs specifications

[GreddySpyder]

I changed my leaky oil pan gasket not long ago and it is still leaking. I used red rtv as the gasket and ran a nice continuous bead around the whole pan making a circle around each bolt hole. I think the two mistakes I made were not waiting for the RTV to dry before putting the pan back on, and I think I tightened the bolts too much ( I ended up breaking one of them).
I'm gonna buy a torque wrench and make sure they are right this time... how much torque do the pan bolts require? How long should I let the RTV dry this time before putting the pan back on?

 

[sunflashx]

http://www.arp-bolts.com/Tech/TechInstall.html

 

[RamenPride]

It's listed on the box if you get NGK's

 

[steve]

Sometimes you have to learn the lesson the hard way and sometimes you can learn them the easy way. This is one of those I've learned the hard way and maybe that will help you learn it the easy way and maybe not.
I have people argue all the time that they can feel the difference but the bottom line is most of the time you can overtorque stuff with little bad coming from it, but on aluminum by the time you start thinking it might be too tight it's usually too late.

It can be fun to let somebody tighten 4 plugs by hand to what they think is correct and then go back and check it to see how tight they made it and how much difference there was between each. I haven't seen anybody be right and consistant for one plug to the next yet.

Steve

 

[markGSX]

It's listed on the box if you get NGK's

from NGK box:
aluminum heads
18-21 lb/ft = hand tight + 1/2 to 2/3 turn

thats what i've always used

 

[DSMunknown]

I didn't know that, Steve. I've always just turned them till I felt the barest resistance, not even using any torqueing force on them. I suppse that was my understanding of the word "snug". I guess I'll have to buy a torque wrench and see for myself what it feels like.

exactally. i have a torque wrench, but it is one of the larger models, and the minimum it can be set for is 10lb. i will have to go out sometime and pick up a wrench that is suited for smaller amounts of torque. i doubt i use anymore than 10lbs.

You want rep points, I'll give you some but you won't like it.

Search around to see what sort of rep points we give out to people that post bad advice and ask for points.

Steve

i guess my sarcasm did not come across through my post as well as i hoped. i was expecting the teal smilie to do that for me. i guess it failed.

Really bad advice guys. Snug works right up to the point where it's too snug and the head is stripped.

I've yet to meet a human with calibrated hands so we always use tools that are.

Steve

but isn't that the point that MrBoxx and i are trying to convey? that "snug" is not the same as "too snug"? that common sense *should* kick in and tell the individual that they have gone past the "snug point" and the individual is tightening more than is needed?

as you say yourself "snug works right up to the point". the individual needs to realize where the safezone of snugness is and when they enter the zone of being in trouble.

what ever happened to intellectual intuition?

 

[steve]

isn't that the point that MrBoxx and i are trying to convey? that "snug" is not the same as "too snug"? that common sense *should* kick in and tell the individual that they have gone past the "snug point" and the individual is tightening more than is needed?

as you say yourself "snug works right up to the point". the individual needs to realize where the safezone of snugness is and when they enter the zone of being in trouble.

How the heck can somebody know that they are right on the verge of stripping out the threads on something until they actually pass the point and do?
So tell me how common sense can kick in other than by picking up the torque wrench and tightening to spec to begin with.

The manual is full of various torque settings and none of them are listed as snug. If your stuck on the side of the road in BFE then do what you have to but in the garage develop good habits and use the right tool for the job.

Just look through the archives to see how many broken valves covers have been caused by tightening the bolts until they are snug.

Steve

 

[Strm Trpr]

Come on guys, don't forget some ANTI-SEIZE (steel threaded plugs to an aluminum head that gets hotter than the blazes of hell during combustion), a torque wrench, and a Haynes Manual at least.

 

[DSMunknown]

How the heck can somebody know that they are right on the verge of stripping out the threads on something until they actually pass the point and do?
So tell me how common sense can kick in other than by picking up the torque wrench and tightening to spec to begin with.

the point that is trying to be made is that for most "backyard" mechanics, one should know NOT to be close to the "verge" of making a mistake. if a seasoned DSMer buys an unmodded DSM, i highly doubt that he will use a torque wrench to tighten the clamp that attaches the compressor-side housing to the intake pipe coupler. instead, he will tighten the clamp down to his liking. he will not leave the clamp so that it is "loosey-goosey" on the coupler. he will also not tighten the clamp down so much that the clamp screw is unable to bite into the next clamp threads and therefore slip off. again, he will tighten the clamp so that it is firm yet not so incredibly tight.

The manual is full of various torque settings and none of them are listed as snug. If your stuck on the side of the road in BFE then do what you have to but in the garage develop good habits and use the right tool for the job.

While the discussion is focused on spark plugs, I would like to make another simple example. I assume by "the manual" you are referring to the shop manual. However, lets assume that an individual only has a Chilton/Haynes manual. With some help, I replaced my water pump recently. In one of the two manuals, it asked for (if I can remember correctly) 127lbs of torque on one of the five bolts that hold the pump in place. The other four bolts called for around 15lbs. Did I follow the book in this instance? No. of course not. I used my common sense to say "that is way, way too much force to use" and torqued it about the same as all the others.

I do not personally own the shop manuals, so I am not familiar with how accurate the manuals are. However, in this instance, the manual should not be assumed to be the last word.

ULTIMATELY I would agree that developing good garage habits is important, but common sense (and not being overly anal about certain things) also comes with such habits.

Just look through the archives to see how many broken valves covers have been caused by tightening the bolts until they are snug.
Steve

And at this point, these people have clearly left the snug realm and are nicely seated in the realm of over-tightening. How can one "tell" if he is safely in the snug realm? By listening to that inner voice that screams such phrases as "What are you doing, dude?", "Stop before you break something....", and "That"s tight enough!"

Im sure all of us have heard him at some point or another. Lets not negate this fact. Regarding spark plugs, lets stop listening to the voice that tells us to "just tighten it a little bit more." of course one could argue the simple fact that having a torque wrench would push all these voices aside and just get down to brass tacks. Screw this talk about voices, lets just get down to real numbers. There is some validity to this argument, but with such a simple job it should not be all about numbers.

on aluminum by the time you start thinking it might be too tight it's usually too late.

It can be fun to let somebody tighten 4 plugs by hand to what they think is correct and then go back and check it to see how tight they made it and how much difference there was between each. I haven't seen anybody be right and consistant for one plug to the next yet.

One of your better arguments here. It would be interesting to see the differences between all four, but it seems that (generally speaking) the differences between the amount of force used on virtually the same object would be negligible. Just to clarify, the same object refers to the four spark plugs (which are very similar to each other) and to each thread the plugs are matched up with (which are assumed to be very similar to each other).

and what would be the real-life consequences of having the plugs torqued around 10lbs instead of 18-21lbs? and what would be the real-life consequences of having the plugs not exactally torqued all the same (other than not performing good garage habits)?

 

[Strm Trpr]

^^^ Dude, was all of that really necessary...
Did you happen to notice that he is a "Wiseman", not a "Wiseass", and after a rant like that, yours is leaning toward the latter.
Sorry to piss you off, but everything Steve said, I couldn't have said it better.

 

[markGSX]

Like ramenpride said its right on the dang spark plug box (no guessing what is "snug", no torque specs even needed) so why is this discussion even happening
hand tight + 1/2 to 2/3 turn

 

[steve]

People always want to argue about this and all I'm really trying to do is save those that listen a bit of aggravation. I've learned my lesson. I won't beat a dead horse here.

There is only one manual and it's the factory service manual. Actually it's several and like anythng else published it has errors too. That's one of the reasons the factory put out TSB's.

On the last point you can test your own sense of feel. tighten a set of plugs and check.
What if we were talking about head bolts instead of spark plugs, would you think they're reasons for accuracy and consistancy?

Steve

 

[bigjdog84]

When dealing with ARP rod bolts and aftermarket rods its a good idea to use the rod man. specs or bolt stretch specs. Don't use the ARP 43 on the 2000 7/16. I know scat is torquing the rods down to 50 lbs when honing the big end. One is not going to get the proper bearing crush if it is torqued down to 43 lbs.

 

[CorrupTTalon]

i lost the piece of paper that came with my arp studs, what do i torque them down to? and do i follow the same procedure/pattern as in chiltons with the ARPs?

also i have a needle torque wrench. it doesnt seem accurate because when im torquing the needles setting can fluctuate if im pulling on the wrench but the bolt isnt moving anymore.. so its hard to tell where its exactly at. any suggestions?

the wrench is similar to this design:

http://www.toolsource.com/OstImages/prodimages/71321.jpg

 

[olmytsi]

Yes you follow the procedure. Also, do not torque each one to the final torque specs right away. Instead, do them all in increments. Example: 25 all around and then 50 all around and then finally 75 all around.
I torqued mine to 90 with arp moly lube. I believe the recommended torque specs is 70 or 75 with moly lube and more if you use oil. I torqued mine to 90 because i wanted extra insurance.


Not sure about your torque wrench.

 

[CorrupTTalon]

thanks, that helps a lot.

did you use the molly lube on the stud threads going into the block as well as the threads at the nut? or just the block

 

[olmytsi]

Umm, i forget as it was over a year ago but you can find that info on here, just search.

 

[blackGSX2g]

I used the moly lube on all thread surfaces.

Do yourself a favor and pick up a good clicking torque wrench. I got one from Autozone for like $30 and its worked great for over a year for me. I've never had much luck with the needle ones.

As Olmytsi stated, start with 25, 50, 75, then I did mine to 90 as well.

Make sure you start torquing them down in this order so you don't warp the head:

7 5 2 4 10
9 3 1 6 8 Front of engine (cam gears)

Also it would probably help you to put the washers in the head before you put the head on the studs as there are a few that are hard to get around the valve spring when the stud is there.

 

[Cheks_Talon_TSi]

How many ft./lbs. do I have to apply to my new set of ARP Head Studs??? same as OEM Bolts???

Haynes manual suggest 70 ft./lbs. for the OEM bolts, but for ARP Studs I really don't know for sure... hope some one can help me with that.

Thanks in advance

Sergio G.

 

[Rex2342]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232048

 

[1993TalonTsiAWD]

I used the moly lube on all thread surfaces. make sure you clean out the holes and leave no oil in them as that will effect your clamping force since liquids aren't compressible and you won't get the correct torque on them. Also when removing the head take out the bolts oppsite of how you install them.start on the outside and work your way in, then on the install start on the inside and work your way out.



start with 25, 50, 75, then I did mine to 90 as well.

Make sure you start torquing them down in this order so you don't warp the head:

7 5 2 4 10
9 3 1 6 8 Front of engine (cam gears)

put the washers in the head before you put the head on the studs as there are a few that are hard to get around the valve spring when the stud is there. It can be a pain if this is not followed.

Derek

 

[1993TalonTsiAWD]

One more thing, you may need to cut the ear off the power steering bracket as I did to install your studs. more info can be found at vfaq.com In fact bookmark that page as it will be VERY helpful.

Derek

 

[CorrupTTalon]

thanks again, all helpfull info..

question why is oil or lube used on the threads? to help slip in an extra torque for a better hold? does the lub harden away after the heat sets in? what would be the results if you didnt use any lube or oil?

thanks

 

[JBDdsmer610]

I need to know the flywheel and presure plate torque specs for my 1g asap doing the clutch right know

 

[95FlamingTalon]

The flywheel should be torqued to 25 ft. lbs.(35Nm) and the pressure plate should be torqued to 16 ft. lbs. (22 Nm). These specs came from a Chilton manual and they are specifically for a 90-94 dsm.

 

[erebusknight]

dont forget to tighten it in stages and tighten it like you torque a wheel