Evo VI with HX40 and Twin Scroll mani setup

[ceedawg]

Interesting thread with nice TS mani installed. Looks like some of the evo boys r catching on!

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thread:

Holset powered Evo VI - evolutionm.net

 

[JusMX141]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/353498-holset-turbos-part-7-a-8.html#post152071881

 

[ceedawg]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/353498-holset-turbos-part-7-a-8.html#post152071881

Excellent find. My decision making is still stuck in neutral. 18cm T3 or 19cm T4.
Plan on using TS mani but whether togo T3 or T4 is the question.

 

[jkimes]

If you're willing to spend the money on a nice TS manifold then I would go T3 divided with a smaller 16cm housing. Badman21 was able to make nearly 700whp with the tiny mitsu housing and Curt Brown was able to make over 800whp with a fairly small .82 T3 single-scroll housing on a 35R with relatively low boost. Considering those results, I think the 19cm T4 might be a little bit overkill. I should know, I'm running the 19cm hotside on my HX40 pro with a pseudo twin-scroll T4 Dark Performance divided manifold right now. It spools pretty well, but im using a 2.4 motor and It's still a little too much lag for my taste. I think I'll be able to make over 700whp with this setup, but If I had to do it over again I would have gone divided T3 w a 16cm housing or perhaps even a single-scroll T3 with a .70 housing if my budget didn't permit a ts t3 manifold. If you are runing a 2.0 liter engine I wouldn't even consider the 19cm T4 because it will be very laggy. My last turbo upgrade I went from a scm6152 with a ported 2g mitsu mani and a .63 mitsu hotside to an HX40 pro with a ts t4 mani and a 19cm hotside and I probably lost about 500rpm of spool time but the top-end feels muuuch stronger with this setup. The biggest difference I noticed is that 1st gear feels completely gutless with the new turbo and mani. However, once I shift into second gear.. sweet baby jeeebus, you better hold onto something. On another positive note, the twin-scroll setup responds much better at part throttle. It's hard to explain, but the car feels a little more fun to drive on the street than it did with the old single-scroll setup.

 

[ceedawg]

If you're willing to spend the money on a nice TS manifold then I would go T3 divided with a smaller 16cm housing. Badman21 was able to make nearly 700whp with the tiny mitsu housing and Curt Brown was able to make over 800whp with a fairly small .82 T3 single-scroll housing on a 35R with relatively low boost. Considering those results, I think the 19cm T4 might be a little bit overkill. I should know, I'm running the 19cm hotside on my HX40 pro with a pseudo twin-scroll T4 Dark Performance divided manifold right now. It spools pretty well, but im using a 2.4 motor and It's still a little too much lag for my taste. I think I'll be able to make over 700whp with this setup, but If I had to do it over again I would have gone divided T3 w a 16cm housing or perhaps even a single-scroll T3 with a .70 housing if my budget didn't permit a ts t3 manifold. If you are runing a 2.0 liter engine I wouldn't even consider the 19cm T4 because it will be very laggy. My last turbo upgrade I went from a scm6152 with a ported 2g mitsu mani and a .63 mitsu hotside to an HX40 pro with a ts t4 mani and a 19cm hotside and I probably lost about 500rpm of spool time but the top-end feels muuuch stronger with this setup. The biggest difference I noticed is that 1st gear feels completely gutless with the new turbo and mani. However, once I shift into second gear.. sweet baby jeeebus, you better hold onto something. On another positive note, the twin-scroll setup responds much better at part throttle. It's hard to explain, but the car feels a little more fun to drive on the street than it did with the old single-scroll setup.

Excellent response and I thank you very much.
I have both a T3 16cm hsing and an 18csm housing. I think I will experiment with both of them and go with a T3 TS mani.
You have put me in gear.

I guess the Evo guys dont like going with the T3 TS mani's because I do not believe Garrett makes any T3 TS turbine hsings bigger than .83. So they then go up to T4 1.00 ,1.06 etc with a T4 TS mani. So this was why I figured Id go T4 as well.

I do want good spoolup without any lose of topend and you have given great examples based on your experience.

Thank God Holset does make big T3 turbine hsings..

 

[dsm-onster]

The 18cm^2 and 19cm^2 housing from holset have practically the same critical area. They will flow and spool about the same. I have some comparison pics up in one of the holset threads.

Only garrett changes volute design drastically when inlet bolt pattern is changed.

Jkimes, at what rpm do you see 20psi in 3rd gear? Which TS manifold? Divider all the way to the gate valve?

 

[ceedawg]

The 18cm^2 and 19cm^2 housing from holset have practically the same critical area. They will flow and spool about the same. I have some comparison pics up in one of the holset threads.

Only garrett changes volute design drastically when inlet bolt pattern is changed.

Jkimes, at what rpm do you see 20psi in 3rd gear? Which TS manifold? Divider all the way to the gate valve?

I would still experiment with both of them. They will both use the same downpipe so that I could switch them out.

Based on what Jkimes is saying it sounds like for my needs it may be more feasible to just go with the 16cm setup to have a more balanced situation spoolwise and topend wise.

 

[dsm-onster]

18cm^2 hx40 spools to 20psi by 5k with an OPEN manifold

I strongly believe that if that manifold were divided, he would see 20psi by 4300-4500rpms. Conservative. . . Turbo ford guys went from non-divided to divided manifolds using the hx40 and saw +1000rpms decrease in spool time.

Here he is with a 17cm^2 t4 flanged housing and a true divided manifold. . . 30psi by 4200rpms with a 2.0L motor ! Thats almost as fast a spool as a bolton hx35. This is with the laggier 12blade hx40 turbine wheel . . . your t3 18cm^2 housing will be slightly less. The 16cm^2 will be slightly faster

 

[ceedawg]

18cm^2 hx40 spools to 20psi by 5k with an OPEN manifold

I strongly believe that if that manifold were divided, he would see 20psi by 4300-4500rpms. Conservative. . . Turbo ford guys went from non-divided to divided manifolds using the hx40 and saw +1000rpms decrease in spool time.

Here he is with a 17cm^2 t4 flanged housing and a true divided manifold. . . 30psi by 4200rpms with a 2.0L motor ! Thats almost as fast a spool as a bolton hx35. This is with the laggier 12blade hx40 turbine wheel . . . your t3 18cm^2 housing will be slightly less. The 16cm^2 will be slightly faster

Wow and look at the results from Ted B. on EvoM with his setup (T4 that is) this is why I get confused.:



Ted B states

"Exactly, which is why I reasoned that if I can get 600+whp from this twinscroll setup that already delivers 20psi (1.4 bar) by 4000rpm in a 2.0L, while having enough airflow capacity to get a broad powerband inside a moderate rpm range, I'll take that all day long.

I've had a 35R with open .63 A/R before, but it wasn't anything like this. There are no dead spots. It picks up from an idle in 1st gear and just feels like the car is rolling downhill all the way. I'm hitting 20psi almost 1000rpm quicker than I did with the open T3 35R, and the big 1.06 A/R TS T4 flows well enough to see the limits of anything this turbo can deliver on any fuel....Originally I had the HTA3582 reserved for my BMW"
__________________
Ted B. Spec JAM LR 2.0L - Headway Perf CNC Head - DI Int Man - 75mm Hypertune TB - HTA3582 TS 1.06 A/R T4 - 12mm lift Billet Cams - MPFab TS T4 Manifold, TBE, UICP, LICP - MPFab FMIC - TiAl 44mm WG - Skunk2 Pro Cam Gears - FIC Bluemax 1250cc - FullBlown Dual 255lph - Synchronic BPV - Spark Tech COP Ignition - TRE Trans - Shep TC + LSD - SPEC Super Twin P-Trim Clutch

Considering those results, I think the 19cm T4 might be a little bit overkill. I should know, I'm running the 19cm hotside on my HX40 pro with a pseudo twin-scroll T4 Dark Performance divided manifold right now.

Dont u feel that perhaps this twin scroll psuedo setup would have something to do with the lag as well?. Afterall I noticed that the wastegate port is not divided even though it looks like a nice piece.

 

[dsm-onster]

Hense my TS setup is nearing completion . . . What's unbelieveable isn't the same as what's real.

Believe the twinscroll hype

 

[2gGSX]

Dont u feel that perhaps this twin scroll psuedo setup would have something to do with the lag as well?. Afterall I noticed that the wastegate port is not divided even though it looks like a nice piece.

I just picked the same manifold up and had similar concerns. After looking at it however, I believe that this should not be as big an issue as I had originally anticipated. Based on the runners' angle of entry into the collector regions, flow looks like it will generally be directed away from the path to the wastegate in both scrolls.

I'm no engineer though--just looking at it logically.

 

[ceedawg]

I just picked the same manifold up and had similar concerns. After looking at it however, I believe that this should not be as big an issue as I had originally anticipated. Based on the runners' angle of entry into the collector regions, flow looks like it will generally be directed away from the path to the wastegate in both scrolls.

I'm no engineer though--just looking at it logically.

His results(Jkimes) with his 2.4L motor and Ted Bs 2.0L Evo are extremely different in first gear where Ted mentions he gets instant response in 1st gear with his setup. Jkimes says his car is very dead in first gear with his T4 turbo and this exh manifold with the pseudo setup. I think I would def question the mani in this instance. But Im no engineer either so Im with you on figuring these things out.

Hense my TS setup is nearing completion . . . What's unbelieveable isn't the same as what's real.

Believe the twinscroll hype

What will your whole setup be? Turb hsing ,mani?

 

[Steve93Talon]

I guess the Evo guys dont like going with the T3 TS mani's because I do not believe Garrett makes any T3 TS turbine hsings bigger than .83.

Garrett just released divided T3 housings for the 35R in .63, .82, and 1.06AR.

GT35R 1.06 A/R T3 Turbine Housing for GT3582R : atpturbo.com

Alot of EVO guys are doing twin scroll, and the trend is definitely picking up. You also have to look at what the stock framed twin scroll turbos are doing. The FP Black has made well over 600whp already.

 

[ceedawg]

Garrett just released divided T3 housings for the 35R in .63, .82, and 1.06AR.

GT35R 1.06 A/R T3 Turbine Housing for GT3582R : atpturbo.com

Alot of EVO guys are doing twin scroll, and the trend is definitely picking up. You also have to look at what the stock framed twin scroll turbos are doing. The FP Black has made well over 600whp already.

Steve but you know those Evo guys really crack me up over there.

Many of them feel that anything T3 and bigA/R would choke a 35r turbo up top. Now Garrett has come out with these?
Seems like they only believe in going with T4 1.00A/R and up setups on their 2.0 l motors.


The belief is a big T4 1.06 would outflow a big T3 1.06 over there. I gotta try this 18cm housing for myself.

 

[2gGSX]

JKimes never quite gave any actual numbers, although I would be willing to bet it's later than Ted B's. Differences in the rest of the setup could make a difference as well--I suppose what I'm saying is that I don't think there is enough information provided to make any solid conclusions. Logs provided would help clear up a lot of speculation. I will be putting this manifold through its paces and can give you some opinions by PM later if you would like.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, we DO have numbers from other setups using jkimes turbo. One with a slightly smaller turbine housing: 30psi (not 20) by 4200rpms with a 2.0L. Similar from the evo with a 2.0L.

At the wastegate port on divided manifolds with NON-divided wastegate passages, there still is a giant hole bleeding off backpressure that otherwise would be forced through the turbine wheel. If you had a hole that big at a port to open atmosphere, you certainly would get no spool at all. So the pulse is in the least misdirected.

 

[1995gsx20g]

At the wastegate port on divided manifolds with NON-divided wastegate passages, there still is a giant hole bleeding off backpressure that otherwise would be forced through the turbine wheel. If you had a hole that big at a port to open atmosphere, you certainly would get no spool at all. So the pulse is in the least misdirected.

A little old but i couldn't help myself from adding on to this thread. sorry

The pulse is in the least misdirected. +1

At low flow during spool up the exhaust gases have the least direction. They will easily go to the other set of runners threw the wastegate passage to equalize the pressure. At a time when a divided manifold should really outperform, during spool up.

The divided hype is very true. it basically doubles pressure on the turbine during spool up. only on half of the turbine area!


Its close to being twin turbo, on the exhaust side at least.

If you had a twin turbo setup that flows to 600hp and a single turbo undivided setup that flows to 600hp, which would spool faster and have an overall larger powerband?

I would say if all else is equal the twin turbo would have the same peak power but more power at more rpms then the single turbo setup would.

 

[jkimes]

I'm sorry I haven't been able to post any logs. I've had trouble getting my car to start lately and I haven't had time to fix it. I hope none of you think that i'm suggesting that twinscroll tech is hype. In fact, I stated in my original post that my current twinscroll setup is more fun to drive and has better transient and part throttle response than my original 2g mani and open tang .63 scm6152 setup ever had. I think the lag and poor performance in 1st gear I'm experiencing is due to a combination of problems. For starters, I don't think my engine can inhale nearly as easily as it can exhale at the moment. Im using an unported 2g head with a small Magnus 2g intake mani combined with a nasty 2.5" upper IC pipe (it has a huge lip and a nasty weld on the inside before the flange meets the throttle body). Just by looking at the angle of the lip and weld inside the UICP I can tell it must be causing a severe flow and power restriction. Secondly, I still think the turbine housing is too big. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that the 17cm^2 housing isn't going to spool quite a bit faster than my 19cm^2 housing and the fact that 685whp was made on an HX40 with the .55 bolt on housing makes think that anything larger than the 16-17cm^2 is probably excessive. Lastly, but certainly not least, my manifold is not truly divided. I really wish I would have realized the wastegate port design flaw the Dark Performance mani has before I purchased it but it's a little late now. I'm going to grind the lip off of the UICP flange and swap in a bigger throttle body as well as remove the 2g MAF and switch to Speed Density. Those changes combined with a big 4" intake and filter should help her breathe quite a bit better. Anyone know where i can find a 17cm^2 (t4) housing and a truly divided T4 manifold for a decent price?

 

[dsm-onster]

Joshua, I like your setup . . . Just commenting on some technicals. Mainly, YOU like your setup.

 

[1995gsx20g]

this might help with your issue.
i stumbled upon this last night.
http://www.spracingonline.com/store/Sound_Performance_Quick_Spool_Valve/3643

this would also be a great cheap way to get around buying a custom true divided
manifold with twin wastegates

 

[dsm-onster]

There are advantages to twiscroll tech that the above of which won't let you take advantage. But yes, its a good idea.

 

[1995gsx20g]

There are advantages to twiscroll tech that the above of which won't let you take advantage. But yes, its a good idea.

i totally agree but for a compromise id say its pretty good.
Or for a "i wanna change my setup but this will keep me at bay for another year"

 

[sophat34]

Jkimes- I have the dark performance manifold as well, If your handy with a welder its not to tough to modify it to work as a true divided. I cut the crossover pipe and plugged it. I will see how well the 45mm wg will hold boost in a week or so when i get the o2 housing finished. I left enough pipe on the crossover to allow me to put another waste gate on if it doesnt work out as I hope.