2G Engine wont turn over by hand

[madquickyo]

I just done a fresh rebuild to my car. The whole 9 yards and then some. After I built the bottom end, I spun it to make sure it would spin how it should. So I then put the head on and assembled the rest of the motor.

When I assembled the motor, I checked all the clearances, the endplay, everything. I'm going to school for auto mechanics and I built the motor in class, and since I put so much money into my car, I had the instructor watching my every move and give me pointers and he also helped me check the clearances and what not.

After waiting 2 months for my damn timing belt, I finally got around to putting it on. I had to turn the crank a little to get the timing marks aligned and also had to turn my cams a slight bit to get them lined up also. (so this means the engine still spins) Finally get everything else put together on the car and get ready to start it. I hook up the battery and notice a little smoke comming from my engine bay, so I unhook it and my friend goes to see where its smoking from. I touch the terminals just long enough to see where the smoke is comming from. Turns out, I grounded the power wire for the starter and hooked up the ground wire to my positive terminal switch thingy I have under my hood. It happend to be my fuel hose smoking. So by this time I'm hoping I didn't weld anything together inside my block. I decide to try to start it and make sure.

First I wasn't getting any fuel, but thats no problem, I just want to turn the motor over to get some oil where the oil needs to be. But then the starter wont do anything. Brand new starter and wont spin. So I get a wire and touch both terminals and get an ass load of sparks from the starter. So the starter is good...try to start the motor again and still wont do anything.

No biggie, ill get to that later on also. So I try to spin the motor by hand, and nothing. Cant turn it for anything. So I do something very stupid but it would turn the motor. I put the car in 5th gear (cause it should spin easily in 5th) and I go to push my car and the engine STILL wont turn over. The car is sliding down the driveway as me and a friend push it to try to get anything out of it.

So now I have no fuel, but ill get to that later, no big problem. Starter wont do shit, but ill get to that later also. Now I have to try to figure out why my engine wont turn over. Any Ideas before I pull it out and tear it all apart again?

 

[wolf20043]

It is possible by the way the starter was hooked up that it is stuck and wont let the flywheel turn.Try taking the starter out and have it tested to see if you fried it. If that dont help let us know.
Mike

 

[1fast97gsx]

so let me get this straight .. you reverse hooked up a starter and then your fuel line was smoking???? Just pull the starter off and try to spin the crank. I'll bet ya it'll turn perfectly fine assuming it did before. Replace the starter as well as any fuses or relays you damaged and that's it.

 

[madquickyo]

Took the starter off just now and engine still wont turn over. I tried with a ratchet and socket on the crank pulley and then I put it in 5th gear and rocked the car back and forth and still didn't turn at all.

 

[Old Mitsu Tech]

Ok, When you put the timing belt on, did you rotate the engine by putting a ratchet on the crank pulley to check the timing marks? If the engine won't turn relatively freely by hand, pushing in 5th gear is inviting disaster. I would go back to the beginning. Now, remove all accessory belts and try it. If it is still seized up I would remove the timing belt and hand, repeat hand crank the crank pulley. If it moves the problem is in the cams or oil pump or such which is all driven by the timing belt. If it doesn't change then the problem is with the crank, pistons, assuming the trans is not locked up. Did you plastigage your bearings? Now once you find your problem and correct it, I would hand rotate every time I made a change. Every rod bearing, every main bearing that is torqued I would at least make one rotation just to be sure. Slow and right is much better than fast and wrong. Let me know what you find. I am curious as to the exact cause.
I hope this helps. Rick

 

[madquickyo]

I actually just pulled the motor last night and I took off the main caps and then the crank spun perfectly. I did plastigage the bearings when I built the motor and they came out in spec. Now with all of that said. With the cap off, its still hard as hell to turn my crank. So I get to pull it all apart again and start over from scratch again.
My friends who are helping me now know what they are doing. One went to wyotech and and me and another one are going to the local school for automotive technology.
Whats getting us now is we did everything by the book on my motor. We checked all my clearances, end play, gaps, torqued everything down to my valve cover and my valve cover cover. When I say we took our time on this motor, we did. It rotated perfectly after I put it all together, but it was sitting up 8 months in the car waiting for me to get time to get the wiring done and everything else finished.
Now my next question is what is the part number for the clevette bearing set for a 7 bolt? I got mine from FFWD when they butchered my crank so I know they have to be the right bearings.
I first torqued the mains down to ARP specs as they say, and it wouldn't spin again. So I torqued them down to Mitsubishi spec and thats only 18 ft pounds. And it still wouldn't spin . My journals are still lobed up and this is getting the best of me right now. Any ideas? I'm going to order me new bearings on monday when the shops open up again.

 

[madquickyo]

I have ARP main studs and when I torque them down to ARP spec my crank wont spin. When I torque them down to Mitsubishi spec my crank still wont spin.
I currently have the main cap off and my crank is still hard as hell to turn. I believe this is a bearing problem. I ordered my bearings from FFWD when they butchered my crank and did other work for me, so I figured that they sold me the right bearings. But now when the cap is off and its still hard to turn my crank, theres something not right here.
I got clevett bearings and the part number is CLEV6RM. Its the set of rod and main bearings for a 7 bolt, or at least says that on the receipt I have.
Is this the proper part number for the bearing set?
Also, what to torque the main cap down to? Do I torque it to Mitsubishi spec or ARP spec?

 

[Mike1992]

Ever heard of plasti-gauge? I suggest you get some, but from the sound of things you've been sent the wrong set of bearings. You have your crank cut?

 

[bullettdsm]

Ever heard of plasti-gauge? I suggest you get some, but from the sound of things you've been sent the wrong set of bearings. You have your crank cut?

Yep, also be sure you're running the caps in the right direction (though it is hard to get that wrong). I suspect wrong size bearings also. Torque to ARP's specs.
MB

 

[bullettdsm]

I actually just pulled the motor last night and I took off the main caps and then the crank spun perfectly. I did plastigage the bearings when I built the motor and they came out in spec. Now with all of that said. With the cap off, its still hard as hell to turn my crank. So I get to pull it all apart again and start over from scratch again.

OK, first off it's a no-no to double post. That being said, I want ammend my answer to the other post. I'm a little lost here. You took the main caps off and it spun perfectly OR with the caps off, it's still hard as hell to turn. Which is it? Also, if the plastigauge came out within spec then I do not believe that you have the wrong bearings. If they "speced' correctly then the journals and bearings should have the proper clearance. Are the rods still connected up to the crank? You need to disconnect these to isolate your crank.
Maybe my Polish is coming through but I am not quite following the big picture here.
MB

 

[madquickyo]

I did use plastigauge and it is on in the right direction. All my clearances were correct and everything came out into spec when I built the motor. I had the crank butchered by FFWD, but the journals all they did was smooth them out a little, but besides that, they did the regular butchering on the crank.

 

[Old Mitsu Tech]

Engines that are assembled to spec will turn over with little effort. Loosen all mains and rods to the point of just touching. See if it turns over easy. If it does, then torque one main and turn engine over. Repeat for each main. If one suddenly becomes very hard then I would concentrate on that one. Same for rods. Torque one and turn over. Repeat until you find the "bad" one or all are OK. Check your bearings to make sure they are correct. I have gotten bearings packaged wrong. Remember just because they are new that doesn't mean a thing. New stands for Never Ever Worked before. Once you locate the one that seizes up the crank, check it over to see if it's a different bearing packaged wrong, or even possible if the crank was turned it was turned wrong. Let me know Rick

 

[Big Woo]

Well what did you get for main bearing oil clearances when using the plasti-gage?

You may want to re-confirm that the main caps are installed in the correct direction, and that you have the correct main caps for your particular block.

Get 1"-2" & 2"-3" micrometers and measure the main and rod journal diameters, compare the numbers to the specifications listed in the book for the correct crankshaft journal diameters. This will tell you if the crank was ground undersize and by how much.

The following numbers are from the 90-94 Haynes book
connecting rod journal diameter 1.771
out of round limit 0.0006
taper limit 0.0002

Main bearing journal diameter 2.243
out of round diameter 0.0006
taper limit 0.0002

crankshaft endplay 0.0020 to 0.0070

If you do not have the correct bearings, exchange them for the correct ones. If you think you have the correct bearings then you must look deeper.

If you can get access to a dial bore Gage, or take it to a local machine shop. Install the main caps without the bearing halves and toque all bolts or studs. Set the bore gage to the nominal diameter for the "main bearing housing diameter" and check the five main bearing housings. Compare your as measured numbers to the book specified values. If something does not come out right here them you may need to have the block align honed. There could also be a problem with the alignment of the five main bearing housings, again align honing may be necessary.

You may also want to check for a bent crankshaft. One of the easier ways to do this would be to install the #1 & # 5 upper main bearing halves into the block (the upper is the one with the groove and oil hole, also determine upper & lower by thinking of how the engine sits when it is in the car) Lay the crankshaft into the main saddles, it will be resting on only the #! &#5 bearings since 2-3-& 4 were not installed. Try to rotate the crank, (be careful though since no thrust bearing is installed you will have to manually make sure that the crank is not to far to the front or rear) With a magnetic stand and dial indicator, place the dial indicator on the #3 main journal, and zero the indicator, slowly rotate the crank while watching the indicator, note and record the maximum value indicated, look for a value less than 0.0010.

Another possibility may be the thrust bearing, or more accurately insufficient thrust clearance. Install the thrust bearings (#3 main) with crank in place and torque to spec. Then measure the actual crankshaft endplay.

 

[Maglin]

I would have to agree with checking your thrust bearings. Since FFWD just butchered your crank It better not be bent. They do good work. I'm about to send my crank and head to them to get some work done.

You said you used plasti gauge. Well that will tell you if you have the correct bearings. I don't recall what your clearences are supposed to be but I like to be in the middle for forced inducted motors. It really doesn't matter as long as your in spec though. Some like tight motors but those require more extensive break-ins so you don't wipe a bearing out.

Also be sure to use assembly lube and not motor oil. Motor oil is to thin and will just fall off before you ever even start your motor.

How does your crank look btw? The pics on FFWD's site are amazing. 7 lbs. lighter. Combined with a good ligher damener and flywheel you could be talking about 15 lbs. of recipicating weight you lose. I'm getting wood thinking about it. Let use know what's up. If this is a 7 bolt block it might require a line hone. I've known a few machinest that have had 7 bolt blocks where the mains shifted slightly.

 

[madquickyo]

I did use assembly lube. On all of my journals, the clearance was .002 on my rods, and .002 on the crank as well. I just changed my rod bearings and as of what I can tell its turning easier then before. But once again, as soon as I tighten my main cap a little bit they don't turn, so I'm hoping to get to my main bearings later this evening.
As of how the crank looks. Its amazing. How it looks in the pics is how I got mine. The head as well. They do extremely good work. Check my profile and go to my site and you'll see what everything came back to me looking like.
It is a 7bolt crank and I have the MBCAD kit that MachV.

 

[Mike1992]

I see you have ARP main studs, did you happen to bother to have the mains line honed with the arp's installed?

Engine looks excellent by the way.

 

[Big Woo]

Well then what main bearings were you using? Also what type of bearings are you waiting on?

 

[madquickyo]

No I didn't get the mains line honed with the new studs. No shop where I live does it and the closest shop was in New Orleans and well lets just say its not open...

On my first rebuild I used Federal Mogul bearings I got when I was working at O'Reillys...this rebuild I used Clevette that I ordered through FFWD and I just picked up my new set of Federal Mogul bearings yesterday. I plastigauged the old bearings and they came into spec, but I decided to put the new bearings on anyways. So I put the new rod bearings on and plastigauged them yesterday and they came in spec as well. I haven't put on the mains yet though.

 

[Mike1992]

From what I've heard from friends and read over the net anytime you change out fasteners such as rod bolts, main studs/bolts you have to size/hone. My machinest who installed ARP's in my 1g rods didn't even ask if I wanted them resized, he told me they must be resized. I suspect your binding might be from not having the mains line honed after you had the ARP's installed.

 

[madquickyo]

Oh well that sucks. I just left the local machine shop here and they told me to bring them my block and crank and they will see what is wrong with it, they just don't do the work there. So I hope to have the problem solved soon....if I do have to line hone the mains, it will take me some time to find a place to take it to unless I ship it somewheres.

 

[madquickyo]

Well I fixed the problem.

I took my crank to the machine shop and they checked it out and it was good, so they polished my journals and cut .001 off. I changed my bearings out and put my crank in and all is good. Now its time to go put the engine back together and drop her in.
Thanks for the input guys.

 

[defrag010]

What were your clearances after they took .001" off the journals?

If you said you had .002 before, and the polished and took a thousandth off, that would mean your bearing clearances are way out of spec. Main and rod bearing clearances need to be bumped down to the next significant digit, so the you're talking about like .0010" or .0024".
I feel sorry for that motor if your .002" was actually like .0028", and then the machine shop took off .0019" or something... That's way too much, and your motor will eat itself in a while..

There was something else wrong, and what you did does not sound like it fixed the problem.

The shaft of the ARP stud is not as large in diameter as the OEM ones, and this causes the maincap to walk around. Using a CRCO dowel kit will solve this. Also, whenever you have a higher clamp load on the maincap, it distorts and is not "true".
Line honing and using the crco crank alignment kit shoudl have been your first step.